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Author Topic: Tavor forward assist (discussion split from another topic)  (Read 39471 times)
Gear Head
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« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2015, 06:02:51 PM »

The Galil, Garand and M1A1 all have a forward assist already in the form of a fixed, reciprocating, charging handle attached to the bolt carrier like many other battle rifles.

This isn't something for everyone obviously and I knew this going into it. The original FLEx design was actually this and I removed the FA feature simply because it wouldn't be a simple bolt on.

Personally I have experienced the handle being bumped or wanted to chamber check and my only solution was to rack it all the way back. Of course you lose a round in that case.

Would all this discussion even exist if the Tavor had come with one from the factory even if you never used it?
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« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2015, 07:00:41 PM »

Lets be honest here, besides the AR/M16 platform what combat rifles have a forward assist? The Tavor basically uses a AK long stroke piston system that simply doesn't need a forward assist. The fascination with turning every rifle into an AR15 is a bit ridiculous, as is constantly doing press checks. ARs have a forward assist because they are gas impingement weapons that long ago were advertised as not needing to be cleaned & had ammo with the wrong powder. The bottom line is that Tavor has been battle tested since 2001 by the IDF & over 22 other countries that use the system & haven't found a need for the forward assist.
As I stated before, the joy of the hobby is that you can constantly modify your toys, & if people want this add on, I'm sure as hell not going to tell them not to get one, but I don't see the need or the sense to it & I believe the IDF & others see it my way also.
BTW, everyone complains that the SCAR doesn't have a non reciprocating charging handle, & I've never seen anyone defend it by saying that you can use it as a forward assist.
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FredsFlavor
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« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2015, 07:08:48 PM »

Kids,

I humped my M16A1 around Viet Nam in 1970 and did not have an FA nor did I need it. I went almost a year without cleaning it and it never jammed. I'm sure that if it were needed the IDF would have had it years ago in their use of it for the last 12 years. I have several AR's with it and have never used it any.
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TNC
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« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2015, 07:18:54 PM »

Hey Gearhead...I have not studied schematics or torn down my AUG to see how Steyr accomplished their FA capability without a reciprocating CH.  I'd almost bet you studied it in your pursuit of the FA on a Tavor.  Was there any magic in how they achieved it?  Just curious.  

Hey fellow bullpup forum guys...I'm not a hater on the Tavor's lack of FA.  I would just like that box checked off for the worst case scenario.  I really consider these bullpups like the AUG and Tavor as realistic "you-bet-your-life" weapons.  While honestly not being a tin foil hat guy, current events here and around the world...and the potential they bring...make it worth having guns and training that you "might" have to resort to.  I have guns for hunting and plinking fun, but I just put the Tavor and AUG in a different class.  So Gearhead...keep plugging away. Grin
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Gear Head
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« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2015, 09:36:53 PM »

The Aug FA is done by having notches turned into the operating rod that the charging handle uses to charge the weapon. The operating rod reciprocates and the handle does not. When forward assist is needed, the user pulls the handle back to where the rod has stopped it's forward motion. Then you push up and in on the handle to engage a pawl that locks the handle to the operating rod. Then you can just push it forward using the charging handle.

Prior to the M16, battle rifles had fixed charging handles on the bolt carriers that allowed them to function as a forward assist. Much like the SCAR and G36 among others do today. They just didn't call it a forward assist because it was simply the bolt handle. I have seen (and not condone) someone take a M1 Garand with old surplus ammo that did not want to chamber, lay down and put his foot against the rear of the handle and force it closed. He fired it. Then he had to put the butt on the ground and stomp the handle open to get the case to eject. He claimed that's how they have always done it. At the time I was young and he was old so I'm assuming he used that rifle in the service. Just I'm sure they called it "foot assist" back then.

There is also the finger notch forward assist you see on many subguns. I think the UMP and Scorpion has that. So the "forward assist" doesn't have to mean a specific mechanical device like the M16 and Aug, but just some way to help the bolt forward manually and is still being designed into new gun designs.
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« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2015, 11:23:23 PM »

Thanks for that description of the AUG CH/FA function.  It sounds clever and relatively simple at the same time.  One more question, and probably requires just pure speculation on your part...why do you think IWI didn't design a FA into their battle rifle?
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Gear Head
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« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2015, 05:14:47 PM »

Thanks for that description of the AUG CH/FA function.  It sounds clever and relatively simple at the same time.  One more question, and probably requires just pure speculation on your part...why do you think IWI didn't design a FA into their battle rifle?

I have no idea. But the people at IWI that I've shown mine too was impressed.
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WLJ
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« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2015, 09:01:06 PM »

Lets be honest here, besides the AR/M16 platform what combat rifles have a forward assist? The Tavor basically uses a AK long stroke piston system that simply doesn't need a forward assist. The fascination with turning every rifle into an AR15 is a bit ridiculous, as is constantly doing press checks. ARs have a forward assist because they are gas impingement weapons that long ago were advertised as not needing to be cleaned & had ammo with the wrong powder. The bottom line is that Tavor has been battle tested since 2001 by the IDF & over 22 other countries that use the system & haven't found a need for the forward assist.
Look at your AK again, it has a forward assist on it as do most rifles. The AK had a forward assist long before the AR-15 came along. It's the way the charging handle is design on the AR-15 and nothing to do with it being gas impingement as to why there's a separate FA.


The FA on your AK and most rifles  is usually called a bolt handle and/or charging handle.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 09:17:50 PM by WLJ » Logged
Halmbarte
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« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2015, 10:15:44 PM »

The FA on the F2000 is pretty nifty too.

The op rod has a notch cut in it, normally the notch isn't engaged. But when you pull the CH out (for better leverage) the CH can catch the notch on the op rod. So if you do need the forward assist function, it's automatic and doesn't require the user to know how to engage it.

The downside to any FA mechanism more complex than a reciprocating CH is complexity and fragility. Making the things so they work and are robust enough to handle the stress they are likely to see isn't easy. And every part you add is another failure point, more weight, and cost.

H
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Chuck S
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2015, 09:30:48 AM »

Quote
I was just thinking that for thirty years I've shot AR's, AK's, HK's and tons of other weapons, not once have I ever needed to use a forward assist. I must be doing something wrong ...

Quote
Lets be honest here, besides the AR/M16 platform what combat rifles have a forward assist?

ALL combat rifles other than the Tavor seem to have some sort of forward assist.  If you've never need one you may have never press checked the rifle (to see of there's really a cartridge in there) or bumped the rifle hard enough to move the bolt out of battery.  Manual of arms with the US M1 and M14 rifles includes bumping the back of the op rod handle to ensure the bolt is closed. Couldn't happen with the XM16. 

The specification for the "new" us combat rifle back 50 (yep) years ago listed a reciprocating bolt handle as an undesirable feature. Original XM16 didn't have one, of course.  But without it there was no way to ensure the bolt was closed. 

Forcing the bolt closed on a bad cartridge has never been the primary purpose but when ya need a round ya need a round.

IDF is not a magic military force.  Nor are their weapons the state of the art we should all mimic.

I'm looking forward to a forward assist for my Tavor "even if I'll never need it."  Wink

-- Chuck

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Apache
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« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2015, 01:49:58 PM »

I'm still wondering how it's actually going to work. The only way I can see it being feasible is to somehow replace/modify the shell deflector. I don't see how the charging handle could be utilized as a FA. Just because I've never needed one in the past doesn't mean I'll never need one in the future ...

Pretty sure Paul just needs to post a pic of the prototype ...  Evil
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« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2015, 02:10:33 PM »

I'm still wondering how it's actually going to work. The only way I can see it being feasible is to somehow replace/modify the shell deflector. I don't see how the charging handle could be utilized as a FA. Just because I've never needed one in the past doesn't mean I'll never need one in the future ...

Pretty sure Paul just needs to post a pic of the prototype ...  Evil

That pic of a modded ejection port cover block that was posted looks like the avenue he's going in...and darned...I recently bought his aluminum block to replace the plastic OEM unit. Grin
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Apache
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« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2015, 05:31:47 PM »

That pic of a modded ejection port cover block that was posted looks like the avenue he's going in...and darned...I recently bought his aluminum block to replace the plastic OEM unit. Grin

Now the pic I found of the carrier being milled makes sense ...
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« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2015, 10:50:20 PM »

Not having a "Hammer" yet and being an "old guy" and been around the gun world a few times, instead of a Forward Assist (FA), cut thumb/finger grooves/serrations on the bolt carrier that can be used to push the bolt carrier forward (to check closure) if desired as the IIRC HK 93 had.  That seems to be a easier remedy, but less costly and less CDI factor than adding a FA.
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Gear Head
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« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2015, 09:27:45 AM »

That is a possibility. While it does provide a method, they aren't as easy to use.
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2015, 07:52:59 PM »

When will this FA ejection port cover be available?
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Gear Head
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« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2015, 12:37:30 AM »

When will this FA ejection port cover be available?

It is being revised and tested. My goal is the end of the year.
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Gear Head Works' products are leading the way in innovative designs. Click the globe icon below my Avatar to visit www.gearheadworks.com
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