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Author Topic: IDF goes back to M4  (Read 599 times)
boscoman
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« on: September 05, 2021, 12:40:55 PM »

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/313041

https://www.jns.org/after-a-mere-decade-idf-retires-futuristic-tavor-rifle/

This makes me wonder a number of things:
1. Are they getting them for free?
2. Is someones pocket getting lined with what are soon to be worthless US dollars?
3. Why not stick with IWI & go with the Arad or Carmel?
4. Why, just why when the US military is in the process of looking for a replacement of the M4 would anyone go back to it?!

The optics for IWI with this move is pretty bad as far as I'm concerned. It tells all those countries that adopted the Tavor platform that the rifle isn't good enough for the IDF, why then should they use it?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 12:48:38 PM by boscoman » Logged

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thehun
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2021, 06:06:11 PM »

Meh...these news articles don't have too much weight in my opinion...

Some majors have talked about this for years...could it happen..sure...but I don't see Israel abandoning IWI...

The initial M4/M16s were provided to Israel are from the US for little to no costs to Israel...

If anything...Israel will employ at minimum IWI US to give them the ZION-15 variant...however IWI has a lobby arm that is pretty darn strong...
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boscoman
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2021, 06:14:55 PM »

The ZION is US only. Made here & will not be imported to Israel.

The variant would be the Arad, or even better the Carmel platform.

As to the validity of the articles. I have friends & family that work/live in Israel for companies that work directly with the IDF, they say it is happening. They almost all followed with WTF.
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"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
RadScorpius
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2021, 11:42:27 PM »

Well there goes our spare parts supply. Damn it.
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thehun
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2021, 08:36:26 AM »

The ZION is US only. Made here & will not be imported to Israel.

The variant would be the Arad, or even better the Carmel platform.

As to the validity of the articles. I have friends & family that work/live in Israel for companies that work directly with the IDF, they say it is happening. They almost all followed with WTF.

IDF is still ordering X95s though...

So they say it is happening...what company is supply these M4 rifles to the IDF? Is it Silver Shadow? Kalia?

What I meant was that IWI US can provide the design aspects of the ZIO15 to IWI Israel if they want a good, above rack grade ARs as replacements...but agreed...the ARAD or CARMEL will be a good candidate for it...ZION15 is actually a great AR to get into...

Anyways...the sky is not falling...but it has been seen that commonality between small arms is happening throughout NATO and US allies countries.
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2021, 10:51:27 AM »

lol. That's just perfect.

And of course, they'll start melting down Tavors and X95s en masse just so the pesky American fans never get their dirty civvy hands on surplus parts (:cough: round handguard).

Australia has managed to keep using the AUG, in spite of the improved versions of the M16 over the years, because they too have kept constantly improving the platform. So this isn't because the Tavor is a bullpup. It's because the Tavor was overall a failure. In spite of how well designed it is, it could never overcome the advantages that AR pattern rifles have (accuracy, overall ruggedness, lighter weight). It's a heavy, inaccurate gun with very few aftermarket parts/innovation going for it.
The whole point of a bullpup is to have an accurate, long barrel for higher velocity in a shorter package. But with Mk.18s out there that are just as short, MORE accurate and reliable than the Tavor, with more modularity and options, the Tavor is defunct. Who wants an 18.5" barrel in a gun that does 4-5" groups when you can have a 10.3" barrel in a gun that does 1-2" groups? The inaccuracy of the Tavor is due to the way the inner receiver and barrel assembly mount inside the outer receiver--there is too much slop and play and the gun just isn't as solid as an all-aluminum AR... But all of this could have been redesigned and improved upon, but IWI has decided it just isn't worth continuing...

RIP Tavor/X95. Looks like you'll be going the way of the F2000 AKA combat tuna.

The Tavor TAR21 and X95 with ROUND HANDGUARD are my absolute favorite guns of all time, but in the last six months, I've retired them to the safe and have gone back to an AR for home defense... The fact that IWI US just cannot get parts for them anymore is what convinced me to go back to the American rifles.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

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RadScorpius
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2021, 11:24:15 AM »

^^^ the 3 MOA plus accuracy really doesn’t convince anyone that the Tavor design is on par with most other modern rifles. The only modern rifle still around with that kind of grouping is the AK, and only Russians or insurgents wants it, hell insurgents only wants it when they can’t get AR-15s, just look at Tali-tabbies recently.
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FullAssault
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2021, 01:04:07 PM »

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/313041

https://www.jns.org/after-a-mere-decade-idf-retires-futuristic-tavor-rifle/

This makes me wonder a number of things:
1. Are they getting them for free?
2. Is someones pocket getting lined with what are soon to be worthless US dollars?
3. Why not stick with IWI & go with the Arad or Carmel?
4. Why, just why when the US military is in the process of looking for a replacement of the M4 would anyone go back to it?!

The optics for IWI with this move is pretty bad as far as I'm concerned. It tells all those countries that adopted the Tavor platform that the rifle isn't good enough for the IDF, why then should they use it?

According the IWI Int’l the IDF just placed a order for the X95. Here’s the link to the IDF post.

https://www.idf.il/137910/?fbclid=IwAR1Mr1DgReUuacBH9uWOUXSCKdMyHLhS8qZPkxVbVg6vLZQJqAa2WXHCADc
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"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
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boscoman
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2021, 07:49:33 AM »

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/313041

https://www.jns.org/after-a-mere-decade-idf-retires-futuristic-tavor-rifle/

This makes me wonder a number of things:
1. Are they getting them for free?
2. Is someones pocket getting lined with what are soon to be worthless US dollars?
3. Why not stick with IWI & go with the Arad or Carmel?
4. Why, just why when the US military is in the process of looking for a replacement of the M4 would anyone go back to it?!

The optics for IWI with this move is pretty bad as far as I'm concerned. It tells all those countries that adopted the Tavor platform that the rifle isn't good enough for the IDF, why then should they use it?

According the IWI Int’l the IDF just placed a order for the X95. Here’s the link to the IDF post.

https://www.idf.il/137910/?fbclid=IwAR1Mr1DgReUuacBH9uWOUXSCKdMyHLhS8qZPkxVbVg6vLZQJqAa2WXHCADc

Well I guess time will tell what they are actually going to do. This is at least good news as far as I'm concerned.
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"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
FullAssault
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2021, 04:35:10 PM »

From TFB

“IDF Are NOT Replacing the Tavor”

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/09/08/idf-not-replacing-tavor/
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"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
-Samuel Adams
BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2021, 05:32:54 PM »



* 5mg2sz.jpg (59.15 KB, 612x408 - viewed 9 times.)
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" -Stalin
boscoman
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2021, 08:10:40 PM »

I'm guessing someone made a decision without checking with the powers that be & got his pecker thwacked. Im still also guessing that someone was getting their palms greased for that poorly announced decision. Could be wrong...but I doubt it.
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"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
thehun
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2021, 12:27:03 PM »

Told you guys this was fake news...
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boscoman
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2021, 07:09:27 PM »

Told you guys this was fake news...

Doesn't mean it was fake. Just as easily means someone over stepped their bounds.
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"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
RadScorpius
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2021, 10:09:36 PM »

I’m so confused.
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thehun
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2021, 09:13:37 AM »

Told you guys this was fake news...

Doesn't mean it was fake. Just as easily means someone over stepped their bounds.

Like I said...retiring IDF officers do this crap as they leave...to get their name out...hoping to get scoped up by arms manufacturers that are hoping they can win an IDF contract...

Now yes...there are M4-type rifles in use by the IDF all over...we gave them a bunch...
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