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Author Topic: Any Tavor 7 trigger packs that have stronger hammer springs (for hard primers)?  (Read 1783 times)
JoeyMac
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« on: November 23, 2020, 10:44:44 AM »

So I have a Tavor 7 and it will fail to fire about once or twice per mag when using cheap Russian stuff or even nicer SA M80 milsurp and also Malaysian L2A2 Milsurp.  I haven't tried any Lace City M80/XM80/M80A1, but I suspect those would be the similar.

Is there any aftermarket trigger packs that provide stronger hammer springs for reliably firing the harder Russian or military primers?

If not, would there be an issue in reducing, clipping, or removing entirely the firing pin spring?  What purpose does the FP spring do?  In AR15s and AR10s, the FP is just floating.
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Lonewolf McQuade
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2020, 02:53:59 PM »

Steel case ammo has been said to not function well in the T7 in some videos.  Haven't tried it personally in mine. However,  I've fired hundreds of M80ball 147gr surplus with the harder primers along with PPU(serbia) 168gr match ammo with 0 malfunctions. Personally,  I'd avoid the Russian steel case crap. If you're having issues with the m80 ammo, I recommend calling IWI & see what they say. Please keep us updated.
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JoeyMac
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2020, 11:18:30 AM »

I don't have a ton of the steel crap or DAG or SA M80, but I do have a few hundred rounds.

The L2A2 Malaysian concerns me. I'm stacked pretty deep with several cans of the stuff and the ammo market is in shambles right now so it's not like I can easily get it traded out for something with softer primers.

I'm not sure why it's an issue to begin with.  I've had a few 308 ARs with lightened JP hammer/trigger springs in them and still never had an issue with light strikes.  Makes me wonder why the Tavor even has a spring on the firing pin.  I don't think there's any excuse why a modern $2k weapon with adverse-condition reliability as a core design feature should ever fail to fire something because "hard primers".   chin scratching
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 11:20:09 AM by JoeyMac » Logged
Lonewolf McQuade
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2020, 11:40:02 PM »

" I don't think there's any excuse why a modern $2k weapon with adverse-condition reliability as a core design feature should ever fail to fire something because "hard primers"."

Agree. May be something wrong. Call IWI, they'll make it right if there's a problem.
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cciman
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2020, 02:10:21 PM »

" I don't think there's any excuse why a modern $2k weapon with adverse-condition reliability as a core design feature should ever fail to fire something because "hard primers"."

Agree. May be something wrong. Call IWI, they'll make it right if there's a problem.

Steel case surplus ammo is always of suspect condition, and the unknown variable.  You can blame it on surplus ammo, and hard primers, for "light strikes" not the rifle.
Many years ago I had 2 cases of surplus Asian 9mm ammo that would not fire in my Glock, but fired fine an any hammer gun, so my Taurus PT92 ate it up.

If it did not have a spring in front of the firing pin- others would be asking why a $2k weapon was slam firing when the bolt was released.  Personally, I've always wondered why certain rifles (AR's) had free floating firing pins.  Always concerned me to see those primer dimples on ejected unfired rounds.  Taught at Gunsite to never reload those ejected rounds.
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thehun
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2020, 07:50:54 AM »

L2A2 shouldn't be a problem...

Steel Cased stuff...I don't use...so no idea...

DO check your firing pin channel and clean it...I did have some protective gunk in there from factory...take some solvent and qtip and clean it out...
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cciman
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2020, 06:51:20 PM »


DO check your firing pin channel and clean it...I did have some protective gunk in there from factory...take some solvent and qtip and clean it out...

 Grin Always a good common sense first step for "light strikes" in any weapon. 
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JoeyMac
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2020, 03:04:46 PM »

" I don't think there's any excuse why a modern $2k weapon with adverse-condition reliability as a core design feature should ever fail to fire something because "hard primers"."

Agree. May be something wrong. Call IWI, they'll make it right if there's a problem.

Steel case surplus ammo is always of suspect condition, and the unknown variable.  You can blame it on surplus ammo, and hard primers, for "light strikes" not the rifle.
Many years ago I had 2 cases of surplus Asian 9mm ammo that would not fire in my Glock, but fired fine an any hammer gun, so my Taurus PT92 ate it up.

If it did not have a spring in front of the firing pin- others would be asking why a $2k weapon was slam firing when the bolt was released.  Personally, I've always wondered why certain rifles (AR's) had free floating firing pins.  Always concerned me to see those primer dimples on ejected unfired rounds.  Taught at Gunsite to never reload those ejected rounds.
"You can blame it on surplus ammo, and hard primers, for "light strikes" not the rifle."

Sure, the russain crap has one or two occasional FTF every case of ammo.  But L2A2, SA or German DAG M80 aren't steel cased or crap ammo by most any measure.  While my Tavor 7 has been wonderfully reliable with all my commercial and US and IMI made ammo (all boxer primed)... that's not eh case with berdan primed stuff regardless of origin so far.  I'm talking one or two FTF per mag for L2A2 (which is berdan primed surplus), one FTF per every other mag or so for the German DAG (berdan primed) and SA (berdan primed), and at least 2-3 FTF per mag any cheap russian steel (also berdan primed). 

Meanwhile, I've got a pair of 308 ARs that use plain ALG triggers with JP light weight springs... I started using the ALG ACT and JP light springs in budget AR builds years ago (in the Pre-Larue-MBT era) because it gives an awesome crisp-light trigger for only about $75.  So I've shot a lot of cheap 5.56mm & .308 with these low-powered hammer springs and those weaker than normal fire control groups burn through all this same ammo just as reliable as anything else.

Given both are rotating-bolt semiautos and the fire controls groups really aren't terribly dissimilar from a sear/spring/disconnector mechanics design standpoint, I think I can certainly blame the rifle.

I haven't had much luck finding alternative trigger packs for the Tavor 7.  Some people have told me that their aftermarket X95 trigger packs drop into the T7 just fine, but those trigger packs don't claim to have heavier hammer springs (on the contrary in fact; most are setup to give the X95 lighter/cleaner pulls).  Nor have I been able to find heavier hammer spring replacements for the factory trigger.  What would be awesome would be a Hiperfire dual cammed-spring style trigger pack - hammer force on those is crazy high.

I'll try detail cleaning the FP channel and bolt assembly real good before heading out again.  Up to now I've pretty much just field stripped it to  give a quick wipe down lube.  If that doesn't help, I'll try finding a weaker FP spring or start clipping coils on the factory FP spring.  And if that doesn't work I'll just switch to a springless titanium firing pin.
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Lonewolf McQuade
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2020, 03:48:53 AM »

" I don't think there's any excuse why a modern $2k weapon with adverse-condition reliability as a core design feature should ever fail to fire something because "hard primers"."

Agree. May be something wrong. Call IWI, they'll make it right if there's a problem.

Steel case surplus ammo is always of suspect condition, and the unknown variable.  You can blame it on surplus ammo, and hard primers, for "light strikes" not the rifle.
Many years ago I had 2 cases of surplus Asian 9mm ammo that would not fire in my Glock, but fired fine an any hammer gun, so my Taurus PT92 ate it up.

If it did not have a spring in front of the firing pin- others would be asking why a $2k weapon was slam firing when the bolt was released.  Personally, I've always wondered why certain rifles (AR's) had free floating firing pins.  Always concerned me to see those primer dimples on ejected unfired rounds.  Taught at Gunsite to never reload those ejected rounds.
"You can blame it on surplus ammo, and hard primers, for "light strikes" not the rifle."

Sure, the russain crap has one or two occasional FTF every case of ammo.  But L2A2, SA or German DAG M80 aren't steel cased or crap ammo by most any measure.  While my Tavor 7 has been wonderfully reliable with all my commercial and US and IMI made ammo (all boxer primed)... that's not eh case with berdan primed stuff regardless of origin so far.  I'm talking one or two FTF per mag for L2A2 (which is berdan primed surplus), one FTF per every other mag or so for the German DAG (berdan primed) and SA (berdan primed), and at least 2-3 FTF per mag any cheap russian steel (also berdan primed). 

Meanwhile, I've got a pair of 308 ARs that use plain ALG triggers with JP light weight springs... I started using the ALG ACT and JP light springs in budget AR builds years ago (in the Pre-Larue-MBT era) because it gives an awesome crisp-light trigger for only about $75.  So I've shot a lot of cheap 5.56mm & .308 with these low-powered hammer springs and those weaker than normal fire control groups burn through all this same ammo just as reliable as anything else.

Given both are rotating-bolt semiautos and the fire controls groups really aren't terribly dissimilar from a sear/spring/disconnector mechanics design standpoint, I think I can certainly blame the rifle.

I haven't had much luck finding alternative trigger packs for the Tavor 7.  Some people have told me that their aftermarket X95 trigger packs drop into the T7 just fine, but those trigger packs don't claim to have heavier hammer springs (on the contrary in fact; most are setup to give the X95 lighter/cleaner pulls).  Nor have I been able to find heavier hammer spring replacements for the factory trigger.  What would be awesome would be a Hiperfire dual cammed-spring style trigger pack - hammer force on those is crazy high.

I'll try detail cleaning the FP channel and bolt assembly real good before heading out again.  Up to now I've pretty much just field stripped it to  give a quick wipe down lube.  If that doesn't help, I'll try finding a weaker FP spring or start clipping coils on the factory FP spring.  And if that doesn't work I'll just switch to a springless titanium firing pin.


Have you contacted IWI, what did they say?
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commiefornia sucks
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2021, 11:10:21 PM »

I'm a new owner of a T7. I zeroed it with Swiss Saltech 7.62 NATO ammo and every round went bang. I also used another brass cased ammo that I picked up at a pawn shop. I should've paid attention to the head stamp. Every one of those went bang. Two days ago we went to the desert and I took my Malaysian milsurp 7.62 NATO and all I got was "click" every time I pulled the trigger. My SCAR eats that no problem, even the light primer struck ones the T7 didn't like. I too would like a heavier hammer spring. I spoke to IWI today and they had no answers for me. No suggestions or offers to try to solve the problem. About the only thing they said was that the primers are probably tough. I figure a 308 battle rifle should have no problem eating that stuff, but I guess I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 05:04:39 PM by commiefornia sucks » Logged
mortyg
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2021, 09:09:06 PM »

I have been reading your concerns about the FTF. Word of caution concerning stronger hammer spring or reducing the firing pin spring. Trigger, hammer, and firing springs are not the same. If you have ever experienced a pierced primer you would not want it to happen twice and the cost is substantial.
NATO ammo has a circle with a cross in it. Everything else is not  NATO. The T7 should shoot any 7.62x51  NATO ammo, period. If it doesn't then IWI would need to fix it.
An FTF with a shallow strike can be a few things. A hard primer cup is one, a short headspace is another, a deep-set primer is another, poor formulation of the primer explosive or a combination.
LC ammo is primed with #34 primers which are harder than the regular primers because M14s have an inertial firing pin and are more prone to slam fires.
I do not have any steel case ammo to put in a Sheridan gauge to see how it fits. If any of you do let us know.
I could not recommend altering your battle rifle to accommodate any particular type of ammo, regardless.
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JoeyMac
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2021, 09:27:05 PM »

I'm a new owner of a T7. I zeroed it with Swiss Saltech 7.62 NATO ammo and every round went bang. I also used another brass cased ammo that I picked up at a pawn shop. I should've paid attention to the head stamp. Every one of those went bang. Two days ago we went to the desert and I took my Malaysian milsurp 7.62 NATO and all I got was "click" every time I pulled the trigger. My SCAR eats that no problem, even the light primer struck ones the T7 didn't like. I too would like a heavier hammer spring. I spoke to IWI today and they had no answers for me. No suggestions or offers to try to solve the problem. About the only thing they said was that the primers are probably tough. I figure a 308 battle rifle should have no problem eating that stuff, but I guess I'm wrong.
Right. You would think a battle rifle from a company that produces military firearms would fire hard primers... considering military ammo is the most likely place you're going to find hard primers.

I have been reading your concerns about the FTF. Word of caution concerning stronger hammer spring or reducing the firing pin spring. Trigger, hammer, and firing springs are not the same. If you have ever experienced a pierced primer you would not want it to happen twice and the cost is substantial.
NATO ammo has a circle with a cross in it. Everything else is not  NATO. The T7 should shoot any 7.62x51  NATO ammo, period. If it doesn't then IWI would need to fix it.
An FTF with a shallow strike can be a few things. A hard primer cup is one, a short headspace is another, a deep-set primer is another, poor formulation of the primer explosive or a combination.
LC ammo is primed with #34 primers which are harder than the regular primers because M14s have an inertial firing pin and are more prone to slam fires.
I do not have any steel case ammo to put in a Sheridan gauge to see how it fits. If any of you do let us know.
I could not recommend altering your battle rifle to accommodate any particular type of ammo, regardless.

@mortyg
@commiefornia

I pulled the firing pin spring out completely the last time I went to the range and everything went bang. Tula Steel, Brown Bear, Malaysian L2A2, German Dag, MFS Steel, etc...

I even tried to get it to slam fire some Federal Gold Medal Match (softer primers). I dropped the bolt on a chambered round with no mag, stripped from a mag, multiple bolt drops on the same round, releasing the bolt, slapping the bolt down, and even a few rounds loaded suppressed and unsuppressed.  Aside from the typical light dimple you see when chambering ARs and M14s (inertial firing pins) there were no slam fires.

When I get a new scale, I'll measure the firing pin weight versus an AR15 and AR10 firing pin weights for comparison.  I'd like to get some slow motion action shots to measure the Tavor 7 bolt velocity.
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