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Author Topic: Tavor SAR Weight Loss Plan  (Read 7819 times)
LandoSaurus
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« on: March 13, 2016, 11:49:29 PM »

Hello gang,

New to the forum (hello, hello) and I did a search and didn't find any topics discussing how to drop weight on the chunky lil' fella, the Tavor.  Lightweight rifles have been wildly popular for AR-15s because of the system's modularity and it's not uncommon today to see 5 to 6lb rifles made from quality mil-spec equivalent parts.

If you have some tired jokes about how you just need to do more push-ups, save it.  Look, even DOD is constantly trying to upgrade soldier systems so our boys/girls ruck less weight.  Besides, in America if I want something lighter, faster, better than I'll get whatever I please.  End rant.

The 16" SAR comes in at 7.9lbs curb weight (w/o magazine) in OEM configuration.  I have a 14.5" AR I've built that is a svelte 6.5lbs through a combination of minimalism, lightest available parts/furniture, and alternative materials (titanium.)  Right now, there aren't Grade 5 titanium parts for the Tavor but I would be willing to wager a set of Ti fasteners, cross pins, cotter pins, captive-takedown pins could easily shave 0.5 ounces off.  In conjunction with other weight reduction efforts, we may be able to catalog a 1/2 - 3/4 weight loss.  Have any gunsmiths attempted reductions on the chassis to remove excess material? 

Let's use this thread to catalog the lightest parts available to the market.  I think we need to reference the OEM part weight vs. the aftermarket, for reference.  If you have a postal scale, actual weight reported would be helpful, and pictures are always great!  I'll amend my second post with parts for all the major categories:  muzzle devices, top rails, handguards, buttstocks, ejection port covers, etc. etc.

As a Tavor owner, I'm glad to be here.  Half the fun of owning guns is tinkering (for me anyway) and I look forward to reading your feedback!


PS.  I work for a firearms parts retailer (if you recognize my username from other gun forums) but I am here as an enthusiast and not as a vendor.
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LandoSaurus
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2016, 11:55:25 PM »

Currently, these weights (what we have) are based off manufacturer's product information and not independently verified with all mounting hardware unless stated otherwise.

Muzzle Devices
OEM A2 Bird Cage:  2.6oz w/o spacer
Black River Tactical Covert Comp:  2.6oz (Confirmed personally)

Top Rail
OEM Full Length Top Rail:
Gear Head Worx Razorback Short Rail:  4.6oz
MI Gator M-LOK Top Rail:  5.4oz

Handguards
OEM Handguard:
GHW TMF:  
Manticore ARC:
MI M-LOK HG (w/o 5-slot rail or Light endcap):  4.8oz
Buttpad/Stock
OEM Pad:
Manticore Curved Pad:  

Trigger Packs
OEM Trigger Pack:
Geissele Super Sabra Trigger Pack:  

Safety Selectors
OEM Safety Selector:
Manticore Luma Safety Selectors:

Ejection Port Covers  
OEM Ejection Port Cover:  
GHW Flex Swivel Cover:
MI Port Cover:

Tavor Side Rails
OEM Side Rail:
MI M-LOK/Keymod Side Rail:


« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 06:04:29 PM by LandoSaurus » Logged
eduarprmd
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 12:22:57 AM »

Subscribed. Good idea.


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LandoSaurus
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 02:08:06 AM »

Subscribed. Good idea.


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Maybe add a column with MSRP just for an additional comparison.
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RadScorpius
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 11:01:53 AM »

I found that lifting weight is the best way to make any rifle feel lighter.
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TNC
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 11:29:51 AM »

Lando, our AR's do indeed offer an unbelievable amount of options of all kinds to reduce weight and achieve a ton of other personal goals.  I don't think we'll see much to drop weight on the Tavor outside of very small, incremental accessories and such.  In the market, the numbers probably don't support major efforts for "serious" weight reduction.  I agree it would be great, but I don't see it happening.  If suppressing a Tavor, choosing a lighter model will help that, as well as the selection of a specific optic and mount.  Still, dropping weight on the actual rifle would probably take a ton of money.  Most accessories available for the Tavor seem to add weight rather than reduce.  Understand that I don't say that negatively, as I think the bullpup concept achieves performance from weight distribution rather than weight reduction.  If you take a concept that already creates rifles in the $1500-plus category and start throwing titanium bits and honeycomb millings to drop a little weight, and you've got rifles that very few could afford.  I'd like to be wrong, but getting and affording a bullpup that weighs what my high quality, $800, 6.2 pound AR15 weighs is a very tall order.
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Rick53
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 12:21:14 PM »

I would guess the CIVI X-95 is in at 7.05 lbs ( There's your weight savings ) 
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LandoSaurus
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 01:40:10 PM »

Lando, our AR's do indeed offer an unbelievable amount of options of all kinds to reduce weight and achieve a ton of other personal goals.  I don't think we'll see much to drop weight on the Tavor outside of very small, incremental accessories and such.  In the market, the numbers probably don't support major efforts for "serious" weight reduction.  I agree it would be great, but I don't see it happening.  If suppressing a Tavor, choosing a lighter model will help that, as well as the selection of a specific optic and mount.  Still, dropping weight on the actual rifle would probably take a ton of money.  Most accessories available for the Tavor seem to add weight rather than reduce.  Understand that I don't say that negatively, as I think the bullpup concept achieves performance from weight distribution rather than weight reduction.  If you take a concept that already creates rifles in the $1500-plus category and start throwing titanium bits and honeycomb millings to drop a little weight, and you've got rifles that very few could afford.  I'd like to be wrong, but getting and affording a bullpup that weighs what my high quality, $800, 6.2 pound AR15 weighs is a very tall order.

I've seen claims from some parts and accessories that they are lighter than OEM.  Like the GHW short rail or the MWI Gator Top Rail.  You're right in that there is less opportunity to modify the Tavor to drop weight but I still think it's an endeavor worth pursuing to the extent that the market is able. 

To Rick53's point, the X95 shaves almost a pound off and that's great but I for one can't afford a new rifle this year.  I'd love to have a X95 but like I've done with my AR-15, which initially cost about $1200 when I built it, I've added several small parts and different furniture options that dropped 0.8lbs from my rifle.  Those small parts are just north of $250 I'd guess.  Last thing I have to do is a pony up for a lighter barrel and pinned muzzle device for an even lighter rifle.

On average, I've seen people spending $30-100 per ounce of weight reduction.  So there is a point of diminishing returns for many people; but for me, I don't have a lot of capital but a trickle of income and buying parts here and there is easier to do and keeps me busy.  Also, I'm hoping that broadcasting our collective interest and input will spur some manufacturers to get into milling Grade 5 titanium or 2055 Al Li so we can swap fasteners and crosspins and what have you to make a lighter rifle system.  IWI has said they've sold 15,000+ Tavors in the US.  I believe there is a market for these items. 
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admcamino
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2016, 12:03:55 AM »

Does anyone have the specs or experience on weight difference between the manticore curved buttpad and the factory part? I googled a bit, haven't found it.
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TNC
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2016, 10:02:49 AM »

I would guess the CIVI X-95 is in at 7.05 lbs ( There's your weight savings ) 

Rich, now that's interesting.  I had not seen or noticed that spec.  I wonder where they dropped that weight?  The civilian model we'll get looks basically just like a regular Tavor in size and dimensions.  Anyone know how they did it?
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Rick53
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2016, 10:46:14 AM »

I would guess the CIVI X-95 is in at 7.05 lbs ( There's your weight savings ) 

Rich, now that's interesting.  I had not seen or noticed that spec.  I wonder where they dropped that weight?  The civilian model we'll get looks basically just like a regular Tavor in size and dimensions.  Anyone know how they did it?
My guess would be the butt end of the Rifle It's not as large as the Tavor
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GunStarHero
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2016, 04:31:22 PM »

Rich, now that's interesting.  I had not seen or noticed that spec.  I wonder where they dropped that weight?  The civilian model we'll get looks basically just like a regular Tavor in size and dimensions.  Anyone know how they did it?
My guess would be the butt end of the Rifle It's not as large as the Tavor

Really? Weight of the LE/Gov-only X95 was listed at 7.13lbs:
http://www.iwi.us/Law-Enforcement/Firearms/X95
And that's the SBR,or MG technically I guess. Hm. Something's not adding up. chin scratching


Anyway, Ive got a scale at home so should be able to get some weight data later.

I also tried to save weight wherever possible, but like TNC said not too much you can do to cut existing weight. I did remove the unused side accessory rail, it's not much but Ill weigh that ans see what it saves.
Just picked lightweight accessories really. I installed a short razorback top rail, do not store items in the grip or rear compartments, have no VFG or bipod, and use EMags, not aluminum mags. Also switched to a much, much lighter optic and mount about a year ago.  Conceded some weight increase with an aluminum forend and integrated light, but then the original polymer forend was surprisingly heavy, like 6 or 8oz. I'll double check on that again too.
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tf2addict
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2016, 01:07:38 AM »

IWI quotes X95 weight of 7.13 but that's without mag.  Is the 7.9 of the Tavor including mag?
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Gear Head
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2016, 12:08:19 AM »

The short Razorback is 4.5 oz which is less than the factory rail. Any aftermarket forearm will weigh more than factory because they're all aluminum but ours is the lightest with a light holder.

Some thoughts;
remove the angled side rail
remove the U
shorten and pin the barrel or SBR
use the factory irons (no sights)
convert to 9mm (lighter barrel) but not sure about bolt carrier weight?
Start machining lightening cuts!
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Rick53
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2016, 10:50:07 AM »

The short Razorback is 4.5 oz which is less than the factory rail. Any aftermarket forearm will weigh more than factory because they're all aluminum but ours is the lightest with a light holder.

Some thoughts;
remove the angled side rail
remove the U
shorten and pin the barrel or SBR
use the factory irons (no sights)
convert to 9mm (lighter barrel) but not sure about bolt carrier weight?
Start machining lightening cuts!
Paul didn't you make a Thread on How to remove the U Huh?
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Gear Head
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2016, 10:51:42 AM »

The short Razorback is 4.5 oz which is less than the factory rail. Any aftermarket forearm will weigh more than factory because they're all aluminum but ours is the lightest with a light holder.

Some thoughts;
remove the angled side rail
remove the U
shorten and pin the barrel or SBR
use the factory irons (no sights)
convert to 9mm (lighter barrel) but not sure about bolt carrier weight?
Start machining lightening cuts!
Paul didn't you make a Thread on How to remove the U Huh?
Yeah. I'm sure searching "removing the u" would find it. It's not hardly any weight though. But you can grind out some of the metal structure that holds it once you remove it too.

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LandoSaurus
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2016, 01:02:13 PM »

Yeah. I'm sure searching "removing the u" would find it. It's not hardly any weight though. But you can grind out some of the metal structure that holds it once you remove it too.

What's the U?  I'm not familiar with that term.
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LandoSaurus
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2016, 01:26:17 PM »

Update:  I've emailed some manufacturers for clarification, we'll see what responses we get. 
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Rick53
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2016, 02:54:48 PM »

Update:  I've emailed some manufacturers for clarification, we'll see what responses we get. 
It's that Rubber that's U shaped You have to take the Tavor apart to see it. http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=3383.0
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LandoSaurus
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2016, 06:02:32 PM »

Update:  I've emailed some manufacturers for clarification, we'll see what responses we get. 
It's that Rubber that's U shaped You have to take the Tavor apart to see it. http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=3383.0

Ahh I see.  That video and post are a couple years old.  If there were any major malfs that could be attributed to this item at this point we'd probably have heard about it, I'm reckoning. 
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