Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 25, 2014, 08:14:05 PM
Home Home Help Calendar Login Register
News: 2015 SHOT Show                                              20-23 January, 2015                               Las Vegas, NV                              The firearms industry convention and show...                              ...will be covered by BullpupForum.com!                              Check back here for all the Bullpup action from SHOT Show 2015!               

Please support BullpupForum.com sponsors!!
Brownells . . . Midwest Industries . . . BullpupArmory.com . . . BullpupUnlimited.com . . . GallowayPrecision.com . . . . . . . . . FFL123.com . . . carhartt . . . K & M Arms . . . J Bunting Machine
+  BULLPUP FORUM
|-+  Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire)
| |-+  IWI Tavor
| | |-+  Tavor and the Meprolight 21 Sight
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Tavor and the Meprolight 21 Sight  (Read 4156 times)
Police Marksman
.
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« on: April 11, 2012, 06:31:44 PM »

I need some help, I am trying to figure out what reticle to get on the Meprolight 21 sight.  I would like to place this sight on my future Tavor rifle. In you opinion what would be the best overall reticle for both CQB, and percision shooting.  Thanks for you response.

http://www.themakogroup.com/product_p/mepro%20m21.htm
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 06:35:32 PM by Police Marksman » Logged
eodcolret
.
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 46



« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 06:35:38 PM »

Here is a article from the Firearm Blog concerning the Mepro M21 that may help.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/04/11/meprolight-m21-dual-illuminated-reflex-sight/
Logged

Initial Success or Total Failure
Sgt_P
Administrator
Bullpup Fanatic
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,844


SEMPER FIDELIS


WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 07:27:23 PM »

You guys are good!

I am stuck on just being able to get a Tavor, and ya'll are way ahead of that!!!

 Cool
Logged

"Retreat, hell we just got here!" 
Capt L Williams, USMC, WWI (Belleau Wood)
Room055
.
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 535



« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 08:30:47 PM »

If you want a reticle for CQB and precision shooting, you'll need a small MOA dot with a concentric circle.  It looks like Mepro calls that their Bullseye reticle.  Here's the thing.  Precision shooting requires that the target not be covered by the aiming point to the extent that ability to accurately aim the rifle is impaired by the size of the dot.  This is why, typically, precision shooting uses a combination of crosshairs and stadia hashes that are thin.  Remember, the further out you want to shoot, the more of the target any aiming device will cover.  So, going with a red dot/reflex sight for precision shooting requires a small MOA dot.  How small?  Well, a 3MOA dot will cover 3" of a target at 100 yards, 6" of a target at 200 yards, and so forth.  If the maximum effective range of the rifle is say 600 yards, then a 3MOA dot will cover 18" at 600 yards, or about the width of a man's chest.  That isn't good for real precision shooting at all at any distance beyond 100 yards.

Now, let's talk CQB.  A small dot isn't good for close encounters because the small dot gets lost on the target and makes rapid acquisition and deployment of lead difficult with confidence.  Here, you want the dot, or aiming point/circle, to cover the width of a man's chest at maximum CQB distance and be indicative of center of mass up to close encounter range.  What's a good size for the circle?  Well, a single dot works good if it's big enough, say 7.5MOA or so.  It's quickly identifiable against a close in (large) target, and small enough to only cover a man's chest out to 200 yards.  A circle works good, because it doesn't block out the target, but rather frames it in.

So, dual purpose reticles fall short if they don't provide a small enough dot surrounded by a big enough circle.

So, what to get?

I was lead into this predicament with my Kel-Tec RFB.  It's a close and handy CQB powerhouse with reach out touch someone accuracy.  A traditional scope works for the latter, but sucks for in close due to field of vision issues with CQB targets.  A red dot works good for in close, but sucks for trying to print nice groups at even a couple hundred yards.

Enter Leupold's SPR (Special Purpose Reticle).  It has the best of both worlds.  Here's why...

First, it is illuminated.  CQB often happens in the dark.  An effective reticle needs to be lit up for CQB.  OK, red dots are lit.  They put a small red dot in the center with a circle around it.  Great!  I can see the reticle in the dark or against dark targets and put rounds on target close in or out far by either centering the circle on center of mass or putting the dot on my target depending on distance.  Now, here's the cool thing.  As I dial in magnification, the crosshairs and stadia become more visible and the dot becomes less visible.  I end up with an illuminated long range scope with hold overs and hold offs.  Sweet!

Now, nay sayers will say....it's a tube with an occular lens and therefore hard to use on a CQB rifle.  Well, not really.  This reticle is put in tactical scopes designed for long eye relief and therefore can be shot in the proper fashion...both eyes open.  At CQB ranges, this works just like an Aimpoint.  Your dominant eye sees the aiming devise through the glass and the non-dominant eye sees everything outside the tube.  Your brain, one hell of a computer, puts it all together into a single image.

The brain can handle a disparity of .5x magnification difference between the dominant and non-dominant eye.  So shooting a 1.5-5x20 tactical scope with both eyes open at 1.5x and non-dom eye shut at 5x is perfect for transitioning from CQB to long range and back.

I'm not trying to steer anyone away from the Mepro.  It's an awesome sight.  But if the goal is CQB, AND long range, you'll do good to consider a different type of sight.

I used to have an Aimpoint Comp2 backed by a 3x magnifier on my AR platform.  It had a 3MOA dot which was good for taking down man sized targets out to 600 yards, but was terrible for precision shooting outside 100 yards.  I liked it for 3-gun because I could just put the 3MOA dot on a 6" or bigger plate and pull the trigger with confidence at any 3-gun range.  However, when I tried to shoot groups, it all went to crap.  Red dots are combat scopes.  Crosshairs are target scopes.  Red dots couple with circles are effective close to far CQB combat scopes.  Put crosshairs on that and take away the dot with magnification and you damn near have the perfect setup.

This is all my two cents of course.  Others may have differing opinions.

What will I put on my Tavor?  Well, most likely a Mepro.  But I won't shoot it for precision.  If I sell the RFB without the Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5x20 illum. SPR on it, maybe I'll put it on the TAR-21 and see what kind of accuracy I can get out of her out past a few hundred yards.  I like shooting tight groups too!
Logged
Police Marksman
.
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 09:54:28 PM »

thanks for all the helpful responses.
Room055, I was thinking about a Leupold SPR patrol scope also. but at this point I am considering a Meprolight. 
I was thinking about the 12 MOA triangle reticle.  The triangle is large enough for quick pickup for CQB, and the point of the triangle could be used for point of imact at longer ranges. Do you think this is possible?
Logged
Sgt_P
Administrator
Bullpup Fanatic
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,844


SEMPER FIDELIS


WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 08:40:55 AM »

I've got a triangle in a Trijicon Reflex, and it is fantastic (for out to 100, or so, yards).  The point rings the gong quickly and accurately!

But to Room's point having both quick CQB and distant precision is rare.  I haven't tried the triangle point at further than 100 yards, but with no magnification, I doubt I'd be getting good groups past 150-200 yds.

The Leopold is a good suggestion, but I prefer a "true" 1x on the low end for both-eyes-open.  So on my RFB I have the SWFA SS 1-4x.  It goes from a circle at the true 1x to the mil-scale crosshairs as you increase magnification (due to having a First Focal Plane Illuminated Donut (Circle/Mil-Scale). 

SWFA is bragging about a 1-6x due out this Summer.  Alot of companies have tried to get a "true" 1x with greater than 3 or 4 manification, but have not succeeded (as far as I know).  So this will be a big hit, if it actually hits the market and is a "true" 1x-6x.

The SWFA SS 1-4x is $800, and the proposed 1-6x will be $999.  So they are pricey, but I've been thrilled with my SS.

And as Room055 said, "...just my  2 cents "
Logged

"Retreat, hell we just got here!" 
Capt L Williams, USMC, WWI (Belleau Wood)
Room055
.
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 535



« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 09:33:21 PM »

I like the triangle, but like Sarge stated, it's tough to group without magnification unless you have 18 year old eyes.

As for true 1x magnification...There aren't any 'true' 1x scopes that are variable and those that are close are very expensive.  I am unfamiliar with the SWFA that Sarge talks about and I'd be curious how they did it so cheaply.  When a manufacturer markets 1-4, etc... they are rounding down from 1.4 to 1.0.  The eye and brain have a hard time distinguishing less than 1.5x magnification from 1.0x, especially with both eyes open.  Schmidt and Bender, Leupold, and a few others have gotten close and round down to 1.1, but they aren't really even 1.1.  The price tags are in the thousands of dollars.  These are typically close to 1.1x and the physics going on to get it to work right change the manufacturing process tremendously.  Forget what it says on the box.  They will put 1-4 or better, but there is rounding going on.  When a 1-10xXX comes out, and it is truly 1x at the low end, it will be a remarkable feat and most likely well outside the price range of any but the most serious spenders.

Leupold Mark 8
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-8-riflescopes/mark-8-1-1-8x24mm-cqbss-front-focal/

Schmidt and Bender Policemarksman
http://www.schmidtbender.com/scopes_policemarksman.shtml
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 09:40:50 PM by Room055 » Logged
Room055
.
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 535



« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 09:39:18 PM »

The brain and our stereoscopic vision are an amazing thing.  We can train pilots to see two completely different images in each eye and have the brain superimpose them.  Don't get too hung up on 1.1 versus 1.5 versus 1.0.  Your brain, with a little bit of training, will soon not even tell them apart.  I've been shooting both eyes open for some time now with slight magnification in one eye and I don't even realize it's different.  I even practice this with a 4.5x long range scope to keep FOV available for close in pop up targets with a sniper rifle.  When i really start punching for groups out far though, I close that non-dominant eye with that kind of magnification.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 09:45:09 PM by Room055 » Logged
Police Marksman
.
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2012, 04:40:29 PM »

After researching, it looks to me like the bullseye reticle would be the best overall reticle for the Meprolight 21.  It has about a 4.3 MOA dot inside a 9MOA circle.  There is some good information on the sight at AR15.com, here is the post below.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/514858__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Mako_Mepro_M21_Reflex_sight___Reticle_information.html&page=1
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!