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Author Topic: Tavor Accuracy  (Read 55718 times)
Scouse
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« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2014, 07:47:42 AM »

I wonder what the designers of the Tavor wanted the Rifle for? A compact design, that could be deployed from vehicles, that would not pack up in dirty, dusty places.

The bottom line in the accuracy dept.?  What accuracy requirement was acceptable? I can not see a 6" shift at 100m/200m being acceptable, especially considering the environment, temp. it would be deployed in.

Have the accuracy parameters ever been published? 

 
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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2014, 09:23:38 AM »

 RoniRider, have you called Tavor USA?  It appears none of us, me included, have been able to help you figure this out.  I would guess Tavor USA has a factory certified technician that can help you resolve the issue.  I wish I had the knowledge to trouble shoot your problem, but from all of the other replies, yours seems to be an isolated case.  The only ammunition I have run through my Tavor is 62 gr. ss-109 and 62 gr. Federal bonded soft-point.  Both rounds allow me to shoot 1 moa groups at 100 yards.  Of course, I am shooting from the prone position with a bi-pod and had not done any mag dumps, so my variables won't help.
  Several years ago I did some testing to measure barrel temps and found that an AR-15 with a 16" barrel m4 configuration increased by 7 degrees in temp. with each round that was shot.  Depending on how rapidly the 90 rounds were shot the barrel temps could easily be 630 degrees.  If something is wrong with the barrel attachment I can imagine there could be significant shifts in p.o.i..  
  Let us know what happens.
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S. Jens
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TDECK
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2014, 10:02:15 AM »

Well this has been very helpful. It sounds like buying another Tavor could be a crap shoot in the accuracy/POI shift department. I should not worry about it so much but these are expensive rifles with crappy triggers which means another $350.00. It blows my mind that the Israeli military would deploy a rifle with such a huge flaw assuming that the POI shift plagues the Tavor platform which may not be the case.

I was considering a FN SCAR but I understand they can have the same POI shift issues. Again, another very expensive rifle with more issues than I care for at its price point. I have high expectations from top of the line gun makers who charge top dollar.
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007Bond
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2014, 10:23:55 AM »

Hey all! This is my first post here but I've been lurking around for awhile.
I was gonna bring up the same principle. How can a nation's defense force, Israel at that, rely on a firearm that has accuracy issues. To me this doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying the OP is wrong, but maybe something is genuinely wrong with his Tavor. Bit I'm just really wondering if this is a true issue with all or most Tavors. I've been very interested in this Tavor and want one but not if this is a genuine issue.
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waveslayer
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2014, 10:27:59 AM »

My Tavor has shot a MOA group consistently and at times 1.5 groups,  shooting 5 shots. No modifications were performed other then adding an ACOG to it.  I have been using PMC, Federal Eagle and reloads with it and it runs like an AK!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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TDECK
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2014, 10:41:21 AM »

waveslayer, I dont think the grouping is so much in question as is the POI shift. The POI shift may not be inherent in the Tavor but who knows at this point. I think we need multiple test from from multiple rifles to confirm this either way.  I will test my Tavor as soon as possible. RonRider is on the right track. Either he has a defective rifle or his POI shift is inherent in the platform. If it is inherent in the platform then we need to know. I almost bought a second Tavor but will hold off until I know for sure.
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clance
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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2014, 11:08:41 AM »

Could someone explain to me why someone would believe that a combat rifle, designed primarily for a urban warfare is expecting MOA performance past 300m?   anyone?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 01:13:32 PM by clance » Logged
007Bond
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2014, 11:34:42 AM »

Yeah I talked to IWI US about this issue and he hasn't ever heard of it. They said optimal performance for the Tavor is 100 yds.
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AZ2000
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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2014, 12:27:01 PM »

Here are the results from my 100 yd testing after mounting a Burris 6x24 50 XTR scope on the Tavor. It had approximately 700 rounds thru the weapon. Prior to doing this I ran 20 rounds through the chamber after doing a complete barrel cleaning to set the barrel and allowed the barrel to cool to ambient temperature.  All rounds were fired from a solid bench in about 75 degree weather, no wind, rifle was supported with long distance shooting support rest and bags to reduce shooter error. The test was ran using 77 grain Sierra Match King bullets. Initial testing was with Black Hills factory new and personal loads.  Test was done with personal loads, accuracy was just a bit better.

Picture one is zeroing the Tavor @ 100 yds to set scope and base line. Black dot target is 13/16" in diameter.  Gun was allowed to cool for an hour to ambient temperature.



Second group, after gun was at ambient temp, was 14 rounds fired at approximately 15 second intervals at 100 yds  holding the same POA.



Tests indicate to me the only variable was the barrel, receiver temperature and as Clance stated the piston system impact. After test, scope and mounting hardware were re-checked to torque specs to ensure nothing on the scope system had loosened up.  Still 1 MOA or 3" at 300 yds, is good enough for me. 

I have two Tavors and accept them as they are, a combat short range system that is reliable and made for close quarter encounters. If 5.56 accuracy is needed I go to my 18" SASS system, or .308 precision.

Hope this helps.

Just my  2 cents



 
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RoniRider
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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2014, 01:17:59 PM »

Clance,  no one here is suggesting that a combat rifle should have MOA accuracy.  The topic we are focusing on the the drifting of point of impact. 

AZ2000, you tests seems to show that the groups are actually shifting high left then go counter-clockwise as the barrel heats up.  Am I correct by looking at you second target?

So the 1st group was center, then second about 1.5-2" at the 11 o'clock position?  Didn't realize it took only three round to make it shift so quickly,
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waveslayer
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2014, 01:48:28 PM »

I have shot multiple strings and have done a high rate of fire with no noticeable shift.
What is most likely happening are the rounds are heating up in the chamber, thus increasing the pressure... thus causing a rise in POI.  That is a common issue in many rifles. Try shooting the rounds without letting them sit too long in the chamber causing them to heat up.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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TDECK
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2014, 06:57:39 PM »

It sure would be nice to have IWI drop in and give their opinion.
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2014, 07:42:06 PM »

RoniRider , have you tried to reach out to I.W.I USA to get any help from them?

Everyone else, keep in mind, RoniRider 's gun is not the typical flat top that most of us have.  Whether that makes a difference, I do not know.  I know that my gun is stock with an Aimpoint (4 moa) red dot and the gun is great.  My groups touch at 50 yards and  consistently  shoot 1 moa at 100 with no p.o.i. Shift.  This gun has been in production and more importantly used by the Israeli military for over 12 years.  As one of the finest militaries in the world I have a real hard time believing they would field a gun that has any negative issues. 
I believe, unless there is a flaw with RoniRider 's gun, the p.o.i. shift is due to the gun being heated up and then the rounds getting hot while they sit in chamber waiting to be fired.  Everyone that has ever been through any formal sniper training knows that for every 20 degree rise in temp. the bullet will impact approx. 1" higher at 100 yards.  If RoniRider heated up the barrel he also heated up the chamber.  I could see that it would be very easy for a chamber that is 500-600 degrees, after several mag dumps, to heat the cartridge any where up an extra 100 degrees while it waited to be fired under controlled, slow fire, circumstances.  An extra 100 degrees would equal a 5" p.o.i. shift. 
 
 
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S. Jens
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AZ2000
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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2014, 09:27:51 PM »

RoniRider, the answer to your question is yes. Smiley
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RoniRider
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2014, 10:50:00 PM »

Everyone thanks for your input on this issue.  I think this is an instance that many have never looked for in this combat rifles accuracy.  I, like many, would expect a group to open up as the barrel over heats, but for accuracy to go high and right as in my Tavor, or in a counter-clockwise pattern as AZ2000's Tavor is something that appears to be a phenomenon uniques to the Tavor.  I am NOT saying it is a bad  chose of weapons, but one must know the limitations and behavior of a weapon should they choose to rely on it as their go-to, SHTF, or 3-gun weapon.   Israelis designed and chose this rifle to be "capable of moving from open field conflicts to close-quarter engagements and from daylight to nighttime capabilities".  This rifle would fit that criteria.  I would say that us in the West do like the ability to engage 0-300m..,or more, with predictable or estimable accuracy even with a hot barrel.  

To answer some questions, I have not contacted IWI yet since I would like to test this rifle some more.  Also I never expected this rifle to shoot MOA.  I don't think this is a bad rifle if your targets get closer the more you shoot.  At this stage of my experience with THIS rifle, for any sustained rate of fire with intermediate ranges involved, I would choose an AUG or M4/SPR over the Tavor.  I have been wanting this rifle for a year and sold my Steyr to get it...a decision I am not sure if I regret at this point.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 10:53:29 PM by RoniRider » Logged
TDECK
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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2014, 11:26:27 PM »

I just watched the Tavor Hickok45 videos again and I just dont get it. That dam thing is almost laser like. Some of the targets are very small and at a good distance yet he picks them off one by one. He even does a partial ammo dump which I did not catch the first time. He got the barrel plenty hot. Can someone explain how this is possible with the POI shift issue? Sorry to keep coming back to this but it just doesnt make sense.
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richied
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« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2014, 12:21:45 AM »

please lay a ruler over that target.  I'm guestimating from the 13/16ths dot size that the overall grouping is about 4 inches...over that number of rounds at 100 yds probably within normal given the heavy trigger.  I didn't read the whole thread...was the Tavor locked down like in a shooting rest/vise?  If not its probably normal and not much bigger than my own groups.  I hope to do better when the new trigger pacs hit the market.
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richied
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« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2014, 12:36:04 AM »

FWIW, the Tavor is no tack driver.  I have an 18" POF for that, sub moa if I do my part with match ammo.  The Tavor reminds me more of a mini-14 I had back in the 80s....it shot a pattern..not a group as it heated up:-).  None of my semi auto rifles hold cold bore poi. I have thousands $$ into an M1-A including cryo treating the barrel..it still shifts around as it warms up.  I think its due to having a mechanical connection touching the barrel for gas blocks etc and all semi auto gas operated rifles likely have this problem in varying degrees. A free floated barrel is needed. Any bolt gun owners out there have any input?  One of these years I want a bolt gun that holds cold bore poi.  It is disconcerting to see that poi move around though.  Someone mentioned Hickok45...I don't think any of his targets are smaller than that grouping...plastic bottles and steel poppers.

rich
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RoniRider
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« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2014, 12:37:13 AM »

TDECK,  I don't see how you think the Hickok45 video shows the accuracy.  Go back and look at how big the targets are that he is shooting.  6-8" plates.  The turkeys look like actual size.  The far red plate has to be about 8" in comparison to the 55gal drum in front of it.  Look at the size of the water melon then look at the size of the red plate.  

We are talking about shifting of point of impact from cold bore zero which matters @300m.  His backyard range is at max 100-150yrds.  And you will notice he does also miss some targets.  The shooter and viewers are listening for rounds hitting target. Not for measuring accuracy or POI shifts.  For CQB practical purposes, sure.  But intermediate battlefield accuracy...nope.

Botton line is why does a $700 M4 out shoot a $2,000 Tavor in a real life round count scenario?    
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TDECK
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« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2014, 12:49:49 AM »

Thanks for putting that to rest. Now I get it.
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