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Author Topic: Tavor Killer - Desert Tactical MDR  (Read 11343 times)
xpdchief
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2014, 07:20:54 PM »


Personally I think the Tavor relies on a great deal of branding to get the kudos it does.  "It's Israeli!  The IDF uses it!  I'll be like a hardcore Israeli paratrooper if I get one!"  But it's really not that great.  

Grin

I'm sorry, but I must disagree.  When I received my Tavor last April I was a pale skinned Irishman, 5'8", 135 lbs., who didn't like pastrami.  I couldn't even get on an airplane.  Now, after owning the Tavor for less than one year, I'm a dark skinned Israeli, 6'00", 190 lbs, I love pastrami, and can jump out of airplanes anywhere from 30,000 feet to 20 feet off of the ground.
The only problem I have with the Tavor is I'm afraid to buy another one, fearing what I might become.   Grin
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:22:42 PM by xpdchief » Logged

Respectfully submitted,
Brian
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Re:
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2014, 02:28:39 AM »

I dont know what that guy is smoking. I have no problem with the mag release or balance of the Tavor and I absolutely love mine. Maybe he has little hands or something. I can fly through reloads with my muzzle towards my target.  My trigger isnt even bad and it will be outstanding as soon as I choose between shooting sight/geissele/ timney. Im pretty sure that Mac at Military Arms Channel, as well as a multitude of other Tavor owners around here are under no illusions of Hebrew hypnosis.  Wink

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
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chickendumpling
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KISS


« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2014, 01:55:02 PM »

I chuckled a little at the comment too, but advertising is always a nice angle to work.   My first choice was not the Tavor for a bullpup (AUG A3).   I'm glad I was able to salvage enough funds and get with my second choice, the Tavor.

Overall, the Tavor is a well rounded as they say, 'platform' (like that term and eager to see how it plays out in pc politics/gun control).   I've had rifles in the past that I recall being excited about and took out regularly - first Red Ryder BB rifle, Crosman pellet pump, and Remington pump .22 ... out and about plinking/hunting whenever I could after school and summers.   Years going by fast, but the Tavor reminded me of those days.  I'm not a big tactical guru, but for my first keeper bullpup - I'm pleasantly pleased.    I also like many military items.   Coming from the NG, I always appreciated the durability, quality, and simplicity overall.   So, maybe, just maybe the military angle influenced me  Cheesy

My 5 year old son is impressed too with the Tavor.   He has been building competing platforms with his duplo & lego kit blocks.   IWI watch out!   Okay, son ... yes, thats much better than my Tavor, great job  Grin   I've enjoyed his take ... even with an eotech sight that you can see through.    

« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 01:58:30 PM by chickendumpling » Logged
racky
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2014, 03:03:28 PM »


Personally I think the Tavor relies on a great deal of branding to get the kudos it does.  "It's Israeli!  The IDF uses it!  I'll be like a hardcore Israeli paratrooper if I get one!"  But it's really not that great.  

Grin

I'm sorry, but I must disagree.  When I received my Tavor last April I was a pale skinned Irishman, 5'8", 135 lbs., who didn't like pastrami.  I couldn't even get on an airplane.  Now, after owning the Tavor for less than one year, I'm a dark skinned Israeli, 6'00", 190 lbs, I love pastrami, and can jump out of airplanes anywhere from 30,000 feet to 20 feet off of the ground.
The only problem I have with the Tavor is I'm afraid to buy another one, fearing what I might become.   Grin
XPDCHIEF,  THATS FUNNY !!!!!
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TDog
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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2014, 03:20:14 PM »

Truth Absolute,

I was smoking unfiltered Camels soaked in pine tar and rolled in Gummi Bears... I don't recommend it.  The taste is fine, but the convulsions are a beast! Grin

But seriously, I did not care for the Tavor.  It's an okay gun, but not great.  For the hype it has received it was underwhelming to me.
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TDog
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2014, 03:26:48 PM »

xpdchief,

That's what I'm talking about!  I got my hands on one and got bupkis!   Grin Wink   
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Paletiger
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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2014, 03:12:33 PM »

Can't please everyone huh. Part of life.
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Ezcompane
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2014, 10:03:51 PM »

Add me to the list of people that think the Tavor is great. The trigger is the biggest problem, but there's some aftermarket parts coming to save the day.

~~Calling this a "Tavor Killer" is a pretty big step seeing as the Tavor has been in field service for a couple years and has proven itself reliably. The MDR, not yet.
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in4speed98
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2014, 04:49:33 AM »

I love my TAVOR,  MDR 308 will be nice right beside it...
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Dave_I
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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2014, 01:13:53 PM »

Let's pretend for a minute.

If the MDR ends up being great with the forward-eject working as-advertised, and we presume the Tavor is pretty great (I like mine a LOT), and for the sake of argument let's say the X95 comes out and maybe even an X95 conversion kit for standard Tavor SAR's, what would be the big selling points for one over the other?

Forward Ejection.  This seems like the big one, design-wise.  However, how big of a deal is that for people compared to the Tavor?  The Tavor propels brass at enough of an angle where I suspect for most who primarily shoot right-or-left and only switch occasionally to train it is not a big deal.  Am I crazy to say that?  It is a great idea for the DT MDR, however is it enough to convert early-adopting Tavor fans?  I am also curious (and optimistic) about the reliability of the forward eject.  It seems to be a very progressive design, and the way it opens up for a traditional side-eject is admittedly fantastic.  I wonder if they will ever sell that design (presumably patented) to convert other manufacturers or how that works that may or may not be adaptable to other designs.

Caliber Changes.  This seems to be the big one.  Specifically the .308, that will grab some fans.  The Tavor has conversions, however the .308, and the niche constantly begging/pleading for a 6.5 Grendel if they ever do that, would be big lineup additions.  I feel like the 6.8 is almost a foregone conclusion at this point.  Really, if any rifle in a marketable platform can fulfill the promise of the ACR as a modular rifle, and use the mags everybody uses for their AR's/AK's/etc., it is probably going to be a hit.

Aesthetics.  Both look great.  The MDR seems a bit more streamlined in the front than the Tavor flattop.  Looks are subjective, and I am not sure which is going to be a bigger hit.  The X95 looks pretty slick too though.

Layout.  It is convenient having the standard AR-designed safety switch and magazine release.    I actually like the handle/trigger-guard on the Tavor as a support-hand, well, support.  I doubt most anybody else cares, and a few prefer the more minimal/traditional AR-15 trigger guard, which I believe the X95 does have as well (or can, I have seen pictures I believe showing it both ways).

Trigger.  It's really nice the MDR comes with a ~4lb. 2-stage trigger.  Not a deal breaker if you're a Tavor fanboy since the price-difference initially might account for you to buy whichever Tavor trigger you want (and that is available).  Still, props to DT for coming with that right out of the gate.

Other than that, what (if anything) do you really see as meaningful upgrades or improvements?

Just musing, I mainly shoot 5.56 and 9mm in my rifles and pistols, respectively.  The .308, and even the 6.5 Grendel, would be nice for distance shooting, however probably more than I would really need, so for a 5.56 both would probably be great.  If I want/need a .308 a/o conversion kits a/o the MDR is more fluid at changes, that seems like the go-ahead for that choice, I am just not sure it matters all that much to me.  The standard AR-layout and nice 2-stage trigger out of the box would have been nice, however the Tavor is currently selling a bit less than the MDR likely will that I could live with the trigger I have now (which I find fine) or get whatever trigger I want as options become available.  The Tavor has a longer service record which is a bit of a feather in their hat.  The forward-eject would be nice, however not really an issue for me.

I cannot say whether this will be a "Tavor Killer" or not.  The 100% ambidextrous design with traditional AR-15 layout, a nice 2-stage trigger, .308 capability, and conversions to various calibers right out of the box and design to take standard magazines all seem great.  Having my Tavor, it seems pretty ambidextrous as-is.  I like the layout, and if we account for the X95 in the future that has a more traditional AR-15 layout as far as the magazine release goes, and the trigger is supposedly a lot nicer on the X95, neither of which helps Tavor owners now but long-term may be worth noting.  Conversion kits?  I think the .308 will be a big hit.  I am not sure how many people buy modular rifles and swap the calibers a ton and the Tavor has a few options as well.  I do know the lack of available conversions hamstrung the ACR, which I still like but understand the frustration, so I really admire DT's thinking on this.  Still, while the list of features on the MDR are better, there are a lot of functional similarities between the two and most of the differences I could probably live without.  I really do not find my Tavor lacking when I shoot it.  The X95 might also bring a few more similarities to the playing field at least in terms of the layout and trigger.  So I guess it's largely a matter of if those few differences make a big enough difference to buyers, with some differences being a bit subjective.  The MDR does look pretty nice though.

-Cheers
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rtp
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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2014, 05:26:13 PM »

Let's pretend for a minute.

If the MDR ends up being great with the forward-eject working as-advertised, and we presume the Tavor is pretty great (I like mine a LOT), and for the sake of argument let's say the X95 comes out and maybe even an X95 conversion kit for standard Tavor SAR's, what would be the big selling points for one over the other?

Forward Ejection.  This seems like the big one, design-wise.  However, how big of a deal is that for people compared to the Tavor?  The Tavor propels brass at enough of an angle where I suspect for most who primarily shoot right-or-left and only switch occasionally to train it is not a big deal.  Am I crazy to say that?  It is a great idea for the DT MDR, however is it enough to convert early-adopting Tavor fans?  I am also curious (and optimistic) about the reliability of the forward eject.  It seems to be a very progressive design, and the way it opens up for a traditional side-eject is admittedly fantastic.  I wonder if they will ever sell that design (presumably patented) to convert other manufacturers or how that works that may or may not be adaptable to other designs.

Caliber Changes.  This seems to be the big one.  Specifically the .308, that will grab some fans.  The Tavor has conversions, however the .308, and the niche constantly begging/pleading for a 6.5 Grendel if they ever do that, would be big lineup additions.  I feel like the 6.8 is almost a foregone conclusion at this point.  Really, if any rifle in a marketable platform can fulfill the promise of the ACR as a modular rifle, and use the mags everybody uses for their AR's/AK's/etc., it is probably going to be a hit.

Aesthetics.  Both look great.  The MDR seems a bit more streamlined in the front than the Tavor flattop.  Looks are subjective, and I am not sure which is going to be a bigger hit.  The X95 looks pretty slick too though.

Layout.  It is convenient having the standard AR-designed safety switch and magazine release.    I actually like the handle/trigger-guard on the Tavor as a support-hand, well, support.  I doubt most anybody else cares, and a few prefer the more minimal/traditional AR-15 trigger guard, which I believe the X95 does have as well (or can, I have seen pictures I believe showing it both ways).

Trigger.  It's really nice the MDR comes with a ~4lb. 2-stage trigger.  Not a deal breaker if you're a Tavor fanboy since the price-difference initially might account for you to buy whichever Tavor trigger you want (and that is available).  Still, props to DT for coming with that right out of the gate.

Other than that, what (if anything) do you really see as meaningful upgrades or improvements?

Just musing, I mainly shoot 5.56 and 9mm in my rifles and pistols, respectively.  The .308, and even the 6.5 Grendel, would be nice for distance shooting, however probably more than I would really need, so for a 5.56 both would probably be great.  If I want/need a .308 a/o conversion kits a/o the MDR is more fluid at changes, that seems like the go-ahead for that choice, I am just not sure it matters all that much to me.  The standard AR-layout and nice 2-stage trigger out of the box would have been nice, however the Tavor is currently selling a bit less than the MDR likely will that I could live with the trigger I have now (which I find fine) or get whatever trigger I want as options become available.  The Tavor has a longer service record which is a bit of a feather in their hat.  The forward-eject would be nice, however not really an issue for me.

I cannot say whether this will be a "Tavor Killer" or not.  The 100% ambidextrous design with traditional AR-15 layout, a nice 2-stage trigger, .308 capability, and conversions to various calibers right out of the box and design to take standard magazines all seem great.  Having my Tavor, it seems pretty ambidextrous as-is.  I like the layout, and if we account for the X95 in the future that has a more traditional AR-15 layout as far as the magazine release goes, and the trigger is supposedly a lot nicer on the X95, neither of which helps Tavor owners now but long-term may be worth noting.  Conversion kits?  I think the .308 will be a big hit.  I am not sure how many people buy modular rifles and swap the calibers a ton and the Tavor has a few options as well.  I do know the lack of available conversions hamstrung the ACR, which I still like but understand the frustration, so I really admire DT's thinking on this.  Still, while the list of features on the MDR are better, there are a lot of functional similarities between the two and most of the differences I could probably live without.  I really do not find my Tavor lacking when I shoot it.  The X95 might also bring a few more similarities to the playing field at least in terms of the layout and trigger.  So I guess it's largely a matter of if those few differences make a big enough difference to buyers, with some differences being a bit subjective.  The MDR does look pretty nice though.

-Cheers

Replace MDR with Tavor, and Tavor with AUG, and it remains the same discussion.
The only thing the Tavor offers me for the most part as an AUG owner, is the ability to use AR mags, even then, I can get a NATO stock, but lose the bolt release above the magwell.  Nothing game changing in the Tavor for me, when it comes down to it, but a nice rifle, nonetheless.

.308 and the other conversions are the big seller here.  I'll admit that I also like the forward ejection, as using a variable mag optic or any optic without unlimited eye relief and shooting weak-handed will have you eating some brass.  I don't do it often, but I'll take the forward ejection as an evolution that solves one of the few real issues with the bull pup genre.  The trigger is also a bonus.  The Tavor is expected to have a solution ~$300+, the AUG has a few partial solutions, and may have others by the time the MDR releases.  Either way, it's nice to have a good trigger out of the box.

Back to the caliber conversions..at the claimed $800-$1k per conversion, I can see more than a few ultimately ending up with multiple conversions.  I'm hard pressed to choose among them, but would likely start with .308 and 5.56, and probably add at least one more to the mix, depending on how quickly the caliber changes are, as well as how accurate a platform the MDR turns out to be.  Same manual of arms, same chassis, choose whatever caliber is most appropriate or desired.  I could throw the MDR + 2 caliber conversion kits into a 5.11 Covert bag and head to the range, versus 3 different rifles (and associated cost). 

Personally, I've been waiting for a .308 bull pup for quite some time now, and might purchase one even without the caliber changes, but it really becomes the icing on the cake to do multiple calibers on a single chassis, along with the trigger and forward ejection improvements.

The ability to get factory SBR barrels as well isn't bad.  Again, single chassis 5.56, with 16.5" or 10.5" barrels, swap barrel and forearm, or potentially leave the SBR forearm on always, and you're done.  Price differences start to pale here if you also add another caliber.  .308 bull pup + 5.56 carbine length barrel + 5.56 SBR = ~$4400, maybe slightly less. 
Tavor + X95 + cost of a .308 semi/AR-10 = ?

It certainly has it's merits.  For someone only interested in a 5.56, perhaps slightly less so.  We could then get into more comparisons on price, AUG or Tavor at ~$1800 + $30-$400 in trigger work vs $2200-ish for MDR 5.56 is pretty much a wash on price, though. 

The gun obviously still needs to prove itself at this point, with the AUG and Tavor having various length of service behind them, but by the same token, I've yet to hear many griping about any of the DTA $$$ firearms to date, so I'm expecting it to be a quality weapon.

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Dane Gerus
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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2014, 09:59:02 PM »

You forgot to mention the adjustable gas port, and the free floating barrel.

But really, at the end of the day, it is indeed the multi caliber capability that will help sell this gun to as many people as possible; which is a very good thing.
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2014, 08:30:26 AM »

When I was ready to buy I looked at the Tavor and Aug side by side.  For me the Tavor suited me better.  But this was just personal preference. 
  That being said, the MDR sounds as though it might offer some very nice features when /if it is
released .  Based on my background and training the only thing the MDR lacks is a proven history, in the field.  Both the Aug and Tavor are battle proven.  My life is to important, to me, to allow myself to potentially be the gineau pig deploying a new and unproven product.  I will leave that task to other people. 
Time will tell.
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S. Jens
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Steelviper
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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2014, 02:59:33 PM »

Me it is all about 5 things in this order
1: .308!!! (for me another 5.56 bullpup is just white noise and hard to compete against the big three Fs2000, AUG, and TAVOR)
2: Company Reputation: quality, precision, reliability, also you can through in Ethics too with the Pakistan thing
3: WEIGHT: a 7.5 pound .308 auto is earth shattering in any platform, in a bullpup it changes the whole game.
4: Accuracy: a free float barrel, yes free float in a bullpup? I want to shake the genius hand who figured how to do that. And a great trigger having to add a spring to make it heavier for LE/ home defense!
5: caliber conversion: for me just icing on the cake don't really need it I love the .308 but a possible 7.62x39 conversion gives me a way to practice on the super cheap.

For me a huge fan of bullpups and .308 has left me with just one choice the RFB. Which I own but an accurate super reliable .308 bullpup is my dream.
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semper paratus
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2014, 01:29:14 AM »

before Desert Tactical can get their on the market - my money's on IWI coming out with their own 308 bullpup.  There was an article a year back about IDF looking into a 308 Tavor
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Rabies
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2014, 10:11:42 AM »

Even if IWI announces a Heavy Tavor,(which would be amazing!) how long do you think it will take them to hit US shores? I think an optimistic guess would be a year or two, it is going to be hard to beat DT to market

Also can I trademark "Heavy Tavor", I think it is going to catch on.
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Slateman
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« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2014, 04:06:12 PM »

7.5lb .308 semiautomatic rifle? That seems really . . . Optimistic
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BINGOFUEL
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2014, 12:39:15 AM »

I'm a bull pup fan and have been for many years - with sparse pickings given that I'm left-handed as well. And I was excited to read about the forthcoming DT semi-auto BP in .223 and .308 later this year. I will definitely be looking closely at the possibility of purchasing one in .308 if and only if they can bring it in at $2500 or less. I've been holding out on buying an RFB for more than a year due to KT's questionable quality and manufacturing skills, the level of accuracy and durability of that specific model, and my sense (true or not) of the instability of the company. But I do want a BP in .308 and thus have been holding out hope.
All that said, it's hard to believe that DT will be able to build their offering that will, at least in the early years, be anything close to the durability and quality of design as the Tavor. The Tavor has been in theatre for a decade, is used by Israel's beloved and elite military in the desert, CQB and harsh ground transport with life and death as a critical requirement. The DT will be a hobby rifle for at least the first few years of it's manufacture. A mode that the RFP has never escaped.
So, I hold out hope that the DT semi BP will put them on the track to someday build an equivalent to the Tavor and I have little doubt that on day one their offering will be superior to that of KT's.
As I said, I'm a fan and a believer in the BP design. Separate from the consumer marketplace the BP rifle design is almost certainly to become the dominant military rifle design in the next decade or so. More and more confrontations are fought in the streets, buildings and hallways of urban environments. Scenarios that are well served by the BP geometry.  I'm sure that is what DT is predicting.
B
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Dave_I
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2014, 09:33:32 AM »

All that said, it's hard to believe that DT will be able to build their offering that will, at least in the early years, be anything close to the durability and quality of design as the Tavor.

[snip]

So, I hold out hope that the DT semi BP will put them on the track to someday build an equivalent to the Tavor and I have little doubt that on day one their offering will be superior to that of KT's.

Just curious, why are you writing the MDR off as a hobby rifle that cannot meet the durability or quality of the Tavor, much less Kel-Tec?  The MDR is (or seems to me) clearly inspired by the Tavor in a lot of ways, and they have a pretty stellar reputation.  Admittedly time will tell if the quality of the MDR follows suit, however if they have done proper testing there is no real reason to doubt the durability of the MDR right out of the gate.  Feature-wise, the MDR looks equivalent, and in some ways superior to be frank, to the Tavor and X95 for that matter.

If the concern is the design living up to the promise, sure.  I get that.  However, if they have done the proper R&D, shouldn't the MDR meet if not exceed your criteria with THIS model (rather than one down the road a few years/generations)?

-Cheers
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2014, 12:35:33 AM »

All that said, it's hard to believe that DT will be able to build their offering that will, at least in the early years, be anything close to the durability and quality of design as the Tavor.

[snip]

So, I hold out hope that the DT semi BP will put them on the track to someday build an equivalent to the Tavor and I have little doubt that on day one their offering will be superior to that of KT's.

Just curious, why are you writing the MDR off as a hobby rifle that cannot meet the durability or quality of the Tavor, much less Kel-Tec?  The MDR is (or seems to me) clearly inspired by the Tavor in a lot of ways, and they have a pretty stellar reputation.  Admittedly time will tell if the quality of the MDR follows suit, however if they have done proper testing there is no real reason to doubt the durability of the MDR right out of the gate.  Feature-wise, the MDR looks equivalent, and in some ways superior to be frank, to the Tavor and X95 for that matter.

If the concern is the design living up to the promise, sure.  I get that.  However, if they have done the proper R&D, shouldn't the MDR meet if not exceed your criteria with THIS model (rather than one down the road a few years/generations)?

-Cheers

Hobby rifle?

Neither of you must have seen Desert Techs new press release video.
They seem to be fully prepared to put the MDR into military hands.

This seems to be a quality company, and they would seem
to be the people who can finally put a bullpup in American troops
hands.
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