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Author Topic: Open letter to SteyrArms.com  (Read 3052 times)
SHORT-N-SASSY
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« on: March 20, 2013, 07:53:07 AM »

I today submitted the following Message to SteyrArms.com:

"SteyrArms.com:

I've been involved with various Bullpup rifle designs, since the early 1970's. And, the Steyr AUG has been one of my favorites, since the 1980's --- its deplorable trigger pull and single rifle-caliber chambering, notwithstanding.

Enter: the highly-anticipated, made-for-the-USA Tavor SAR, also chambered for the 50-year-old popular medium-range varmint round, the 223/5.56x45mm. A highly-respected, well-informed Member of our BullpupForum.com, in a recent Reply to his comprehensive 'Tavor Full Review!' stated, 'If this Tavoritis persists, I may have to do something rash like dump the AK and adopt the Tavor as my go to rifle.'

I think it's fair to state that his unabashed enthusiasm for the Tavor SAR is shared by a large segment of today's changing (read: increasingly discriminating) shooting world. Personally, despite my having been enamored with the Steyr AUG, for many years, if I had to choose between today's Steyr AUG and the just-released Tavor SAR --- both limited to the 1960's varmint round --- the Tavor SAR would get my nod.

Back to the future: with the highly-acclaimed, much-improved Thales F90 version of the Steyr AUG still well beyond the horizon, at least, for the USA, what can Steyr do, right now, to recapture the excitement the AUG has held for so long? I submit that the answer can be found in the November 16, 2012 Shooting Times article, By J. Guthrie, 6.5 Grendel: The Round the Military Ought to Have (www.shootingtimes.com/.../6-5mm-grendel-the-round-the-military-ought-to-have/). Stated succinctly: a 'heart transplant' for the 20th Century AUG is long overdue. If offered a Steyr AUG in 6.5 Grendel and a Tavor SAR in 223/5.56x45mm, the multi-purpose 6.5 Grendel AUG wins, hands-down!

Lastly, given the nature of the late 1970's-designed AUG, here, well into the second decade of the 21st Century, with ambi-ejection and forward-ejection becoming the norm, left-hand or right-hand Bolt assemblies should be available to respective Consumers, without the optional charge for the left-hand version --- and incorporate that long-needed improved trigger, please. Thank you.

CC: BullpupForum.com"

« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 08:01:22 AM by SHORT-N-SASSY » Logged
SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 09:09:38 PM »

I today received the following E-mail Response from SteyrArms.com:

"Thank you for your email and your very well written constructive feedback. Please know that we read every email from every customer and try to gather as much information as possible from our clientele as to what is the next best thing to bring to market. The 6.5 Grendel is one of several different caliber options that we have had a lot of feedback. Although, I don't want to divulge exactly what our engineers are working on, please know we are looking at a few different options that we can launch in the not so distant future.

Again thank you for your support of Steyr Arms and your valued input. I will make sure it does not fall on deaf ears.

Best regards,

Scott O'Brien"
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racky
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 01:09:22 AM »

S-N-S, rite on!!!,hopefully steyr-thales-IWI, will listen and just make a 6.5grendel, although IWI has their hands-full, for a while,
Keep on agitating (Friendly-of course)!!!
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Justice4All
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 01:23:14 AM »

"Varmint round" LOL.  An apt description of the 5.56mm.  I guess VC should have been classed as "varmints".

On the AR15.com fora there is a thread stating that the 5.56mm is just fine for hunting 400lb Texas hogs.  Of notable interest in that thread is a post wherein a poster comments on taking 5 shots to kill a large hog, finishing with a double tap to the head at 10ft away.

And yet these .... individuals .... think that this is acceptable.  If I'm shooting 200-400 lbs of foul temper wrapped in hide and with filthy tusks are almost guaranteed to give me a nasty infection when I'm gored, I want the thing dead no closer than 50yds from me.  Preferably dead or crippled on the first shot.

Maybe that's just a difference in perspective on my part.  If I'm hunting I'm not doing it for recreation/excitement.  I'm doing it to remove a nuisance or put food on the table.  (I'm not saying that I won't enjoy the hunt.)  That still doesn't change the fact that the kill should be quick and humane.

Anyway, I greatly appreciate your activism on this front, Short n Sassy.
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 05:55:23 AM »

I last week sent the following letter to Steyr Arms, Inc. C.E.O., Scott O'Brien:

"Dear Mr. O'Brien,

Thank you for your encouraging response to my March 20, 2013 suggestion for a much-needed "heart transplant" for the 20th Century AUG: a multi-purpose 6.5mm Grendel-chambered Steyr AUG.

To that end, I now submit for your consideration a suggestion for taking the new, large-diameter Barrel design (breech end) of the improved Thales F90, to its logical conclusion: increase the diameter of the Bolt head-Barrel Extension, while retaining the present diameter of the Bolt shank, to allow safe operation of higher chamber pressures for the Grendel --- operating pressures which have already proven safe in 6.5mm Grendel Bolt-action rifles, with increased performance a result.

Remington Arms has used this technique in their 22-inch-barreled .30 Remington AR-chambered R-15, to good effect: a rebated cartridge with a .500" case diameter, in an AR-15-length action. Per Remington's ballistic chart for their best .30 RAR loading: 125-grain Accu-Tip BT bullet (BC - 0.335) Velocity/Energy values of 2800 fps/2176 ft-lb, at the muzzle, and 1610 fps/719 ft-lb, at 500 yards.

Compare to the 6.5mm Grendel +P load, in a 22-inch-barreled Bolt-action rifle: 139-grain Lapua Scenar BT (BC - 0.615) Velocity/Energy values of 2700 fps/2250 ft-lb, at the muzzle, and 2020 fps/1259 ft-lb, at 500 yards. And, even from a compact 16-inch barreled 6.5mm Grendel +P-improved Steyr AUG, the 139-grain Lapua Scenar BT projectile leaves the muzzle at approx. 2550 fps/2007 ft-lb (surpasses the .30 RAR's 22-inch barrel slight ME advantage, by 100 yards), and retains 1895 fps/1108 ft-lbs, at 500 yards.

I think it's fair to state that a 6.5mm Grendel +P Steyr AUG would be well-received.

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,"
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 03:42:50 AM »

I today submitted the following Message to Steyr Arms, Inc. C.E.O., Scott O'Brien:

"Re my March 20, 2013 E-mail, your kind response.

Dear Mr. O'Brien,

First, I'll take this opportunity to congratulate Steyr-Mannlicher, on their upcoming 150th anniversary!

Some months ago, following the highly-anticipated release of the IWI Tavor SAR Bullpup carbine, a fellow Bullpup Forum Member --- inadvertently, or otherwise --- referred to our Forum as "the Tavor Forum." Now, I think it's fair to state that our Bullpup Forum has earned the reputation for being  the source --- the voice --- for all things relating to Bullpups. Indeed, our Forum is routinely referred to, on other Forums, when the subject is Bullpups. In short: what's aired, on our Bullpup Forum, reverberates across the Internet.

Yesterday, I checked the 100 Most Recent Posts on BullpupForum.com. The tally: 64 were related to "IWI Tavor"; 5 related to "Steyr AUG"; 31 related to all other Bullpups/issues. For those Bullpup Enthusiasts, among us, who've long-held the Steyr AUG as the Bullpup design, by which all others must be judged, this is a shocker --- though taking into account the extreme popularity the IWI Tavor SAR presently enjoys.

In the October 22, 2013 Jane's article, NZ MoD assessing responses to Steyr replacement Rfl, By Julian Kerr, Sidney, it's reported, "A 2011 MoD report said operations in Afghanistan had shown that the Steyr's sights were not powerful enough to accurately identify adversaries, and the weapons, themselves, were ineffective, at ranges greater than 200 meters."

The 5.56x45mm NATO round, ". . . ineffective, at ranges greater than 200 meters." Using the handy Handloads.com Ballistic Calculator, I dialed in the projectile weight, Ballistic Coefficient and muzzle velocity (16" barrel) of the M855 round to determine the remaining Kinetic Energy of the projectile (62-grain), at 200 meters: 709 ft-lbs. Then, using ""709 ft-lbs," as a parameter, I compared the M855 to the M80 (7.62X51mm NATO, 147-grain) and the 6.5mm Grendel (123-grain), also using muzzle velocities, from a 16" barrel. The results were not surprising: the M80 round retained 709 ft-lbs KE, at 466 meters, the 6.5mm Grendel retained 709 ft-lbs KE, at 595 meters.

Mr. O'brien, in view of all the above, I submit that what Steyr-Mannlicher needs to properly celebrate their 150th anniversary of making firearms is to offer, at the upcoming 2014 SHOT Show in Las Vegas, the long-overdue 6.5mm Grendel Steyr AUG. Let's give our shooting world a first, a 6.5mm Grendel Bullpup, while restoring the Bullpup "crown" to the Steyr AUG. Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,

CC: The Bullpup Forum"
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 04:38:00 AM by SHORT-N-SASSY » Logged
Mossad
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 04:20:21 AM »

Sold both of my Penn. Tavors...not ISRAELI, and bought the KING OF BULPUPS...THE# 1...the uno...just love my     A u g.  !!!!http:// Shocked
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 09:07:38 PM »

Sold both of my Penn. Tavors...not ISRAELI, and bought the KING OF BULPUPS...THE# 1...the uno...just love my     A u g.  !!!!http:// Shocked

Mossad,

I just tried your Link, and it doesn't work. I'd like to see your AUG!
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7n6
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2013, 04:10:40 PM »

I've watched some videos in Canada where they have the real IWI Tavor- some had issues, others swore by them. As far as an AUG in some goofy not so prevalent round like 6.8, 6.5, or .300- no. There isn't that much of a market for something like that when the 5.56 is so available. If they want to do something to modernize the AUG, it would be simply to add a bolt release to the NATO stock, then over night- Tavor would be done in the USA.
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Dane Gerus
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 06:44:36 PM »

Posted this remark in another thread; thought it applied here too:

".22lr kits should be SOP for any major firearms design in the modern age IMHO.
Perhaps it was the unprecedented shortage of .22lr supplies ranging from late 2012 to early 2013 that discouraged Steyr and others from moving forward with the idea.
There's a member of this forum who has an open letter to Steyr requesting the production of AUG A3's in 6.5 Grendel.
Now, while I won't argue against the 6.5 being a terrific round, I think Steyr could do more to enhance their bottom line, as well expand the American Bullpup following if they would just stick with one expensive caliber at a time (5.56 for now) and one really cheap caliber (.22lr).
Perhaps, if it ever looks like 6.5 Grendel is available in the quantities that 5.56 NATO is, then they could focus on offering that as well, but as we all know, it would require the military to switch first, s that there would be a source of surplus."
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 09:39:07 PM »

Posted this remark in another thread; thought it applied here too:

".22lr kits should be SOP for any major firearms design in the modern age IMHO.
Perhaps it was the unprecedented shortage of .22lr supplies ranging from late 2012 to early 2013 that discouraged Steyr and others from moving forward with the idea.
There's a member of this forum who has an open letter to Steyr requesting the production of AUG A3's in 6.5 Grendel.
Now, while I won't argue against the 6.5 being a terrific round, I think Steyr could do more to enhance their bottom line, as well expand the American Bullpup following if they would just stick with one expensive caliber at a time (5.56 for now) and one really cheap caliber (.22lr).
Perhaps, if it ever looks like 6.5 Grendel is available in the quantities that 5.56 NATO is, then they could focus on offering that as well, but as we all know, it would require the military to switch first, s that there would be a source of surplus."

(http://innovationtrail.org/post/innovation-gun-industry)
(http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=103918)
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Dane Gerus
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 10:16:23 PM »

Posted this remark in another thread; thought it applied here too:

".22lr kits should be SOP for any major firearms design in the modern age IMHO.
Perhaps it was the unprecedented shortage of .22lr supplies ranging from late 2012 to early 2013 that discouraged Steyr and others from moving forward with the idea.
There's a member of this forum who has an open letter to Steyr requesting the production of AUG A3's in 6.5 Grendel.
Now, while I won't argue against the 6.5 being a terrific round, I think Steyr could do more to enhance their bottom line, as well expand the American Bullpup following if they would just stick with one expensive caliber at a time (5.56 for now) and one really cheap caliber (.22lr).
Perhaps, if it ever looks like 6.5 Grendel is available in the quantities that 5.56 NATO is, then they could focus on offering that as well, but as we all know, it would require the military to switch first, s that there would be a source of surplus."

(http://innovationtrail.org/post/innovation-gun-industry)
(http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=103918)
While it was certainly interesting to read more about your experiences in innovation (a quality that I do cherish), I stand by my remarks on the grounds that we just won't see the economies of scale necessary to market 6.5 Grendel AUG's until the military adopts the round so that the govt. can start surplussing it.
I don't pretend to be any kind of authority on these subjects, so if I am dead wrong about the availability/affordability of the 6.5, please tell me. I already know it is superior to the 5.56 NATO, but you have to get the gubmit to switch first, or you'll never have the universal distribution needed.
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 11:43:36 PM »

"Tradition outweighs incentives to innovate.": a nice way of stating, "We're stuck in the twentieth century" --- and most of us don't even recognize it, or care.
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Dane Gerus
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 11:50:41 PM »

Oh, I recognize it, believe me.
I'm not a fan of the 5.56 NATO in any of it's flavors, but I'm little more pessimistic about civilian demand leading military adoption.

Once upon a time, the military used stuff that seemed to work well in the civilian world because they didn't have the budget to hire "experts" and "scientists".
Now, everything is political, and our military has become behemoth consumer of small arms, etc. With the economy, and all the other problems we're facing at this time in our history, we [seemingly] just don't have the necessary resources to switch to a new infantry cartridge, even if we want to.

I hope that will change sooner, rather than later.
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 12:15:41 AM »

. . . we [seemingly] just don't have the necessary resources to switch to a new infantry cartridge, even if we want to.

I hope that will change sooner, rather than later.

New Army "Caliber Configuration Study"
(http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7512-New-Army-quot-Caliber-Configuration-Study-quot)
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