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Author Topic: DP-12 Experiences Wanted  (Read 3116 times)
Chowwow
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2021, 02:33:29 PM »

So my initial fears have come true and Connecticut Shotgun didn't find anything wrong with the gun:

Quote from: CS
Good Morning,

After shooting and testing the gun using 48 rounds, with an mix of different ammo. We’re not finding anything wrong to be wrong with the gun under the initial inspection.

Before we can go any further we need to know exactly what’s wrong with the gun from your insight.

As of now there is an shipping fee of $50.00 in order to return the gun.

Thank You,

Rich

I am insisting that they at least replace the stripped screws so they don't accuse me of voiding the warranty, and to give me advice on how to maintain the gun. It's interesting to note that they are not seeing problems after I had the thing cleaned before I sent it to them. It's possible that the chamber was too dirty for the shot shells to go into battery and now that the soot is gone, it's working at least a bit better. All guns need maintenance, but I expected to go longer between cleanings before seeing malfunctions. It's a bummer that I have to pay for return shipping but I'm pressing the issue to make sure I don't have to make it a habit of sending the gun out to them whenever I need service.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 02:52:13 PM by Chowwow » Logged
Chowwow
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2021, 03:58:01 PM »

Methinks Rich is a little proud of his job:

Quote
I've shot your gun 48 shells I've used bioky and Winchester I don't know what's going on wrong, but we tested it here and there is no issue
2 the screws are not stripped ,  wrong conclusion where the screw sit has nothing to do on why there stripped that's not a problem you can wipe it down with oil want me to go further .
 I'm the senior tech the shop rate is 250 hr. I can take it apart and check every inch & Measurement . I can tell u without a doubt the gun works as designed and I've sent out thousands .
 
thanks     
             Rich

Oh what can we dirty peasant customers do in the face of such majesty?
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CodeSection
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2021, 05:15:14 PM »

Don't you find it interesting that page 1 of this thread is no longer readable? 

As for SM statements to you, it appears many items said conflict with your statements and even others written statements that complained on BBB.org as well as Allen, Charles v. SM in CT Superior Court Case HHD-CV20-6121922-S.....that case is a very interesting read......

I'm glad you posted your experiences......
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Chowwow
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2021, 01:12:44 AM »

Quote
Don't you find it interesting that page 1 of this thread is no longer readable?

That's my fault. I tried to upload a picture that was too high of a resolution and that crashed the page. I managed to re-edit my last post to push the thread to the next page and here we are. I'm working with the global mod to see what he can do.

Quote
Charles v. SM in CT Superior Court Case HHD-CV20-6121922-S.....that case is a very interesting read......

Every Google result and search into CT's Supreme Court website doesn't find what I'm looking for. What is the case about? Based on SM/CTS's nickel and diming me over the shipping of the gun instead of providing shipping labels, and the small number of names that pop up a lot in correspondence, it indicates that the company(s) are small, life is not fun and they have limited funds to operate with.

While I don't appreciate Rich's tone, I do trust in his results. What I suspect is happening is that a dirty bore is allowing shot shells with smaller brass to slip further into the chamber, where they are just out of reach of the firing strikers. This explains why the slugs with longer brass are still able to chamber, the longer brass helps the shot to chamber just right even with a dirty bore. The failures were sudden and unpredictable, so the shorty slugs with brass just as short might have gotten lucky and the dozen or so that I tried all passed.

So if I want absolute reliability with shot shells the next time I go clay or skeet shooting, I probably would need to clean and oil the barrels before that session or start using shot shells with heavy brass or upland loads like these Federals https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/federal-game-shok-upland-game-heavy-field-load-shotshells. I don't like having to find specific ammo, so I will try to see what I can do to make my remaining standard shot shells reliable. In terms of self defense, it means that the DP-12 is still able to fire lethal rounds (slugs at least) even when not having been cleaned for 200+ rounds. I know I keep coming back to this conclusion, but that is because I notice that buckshot has long brass like slugs do and, frankly, slugs are a viable self-defense round while shot shells are not.

One thing I wanted to ask you was what does a self-defense gun have to do for you? In my mind, a self-defense shotgun should be as simple as possible and ready to go before you are. Upon self reflection and the fact that I never store it loaded, the DP-12 doesn't fit that role very well. It's heavy, has lots of parts and that affects its reliability. However its short barrel, high capacity, versatile loads, and simple pump action are useful features in self-defense situations, among others. I know I come off as someone trying to justify his $3000+ shotgun purchase to strangers on the internet sometimes, but I still believe in the potential of this system and I seem to be the only person out there who is willing to dig deep into the workings of this gun and get the most out of it, despite the stupid things its parent company does.

What I'm getting at, if you are looking for bullpup shotgun alternatives for a self-defense mission, is to consider a reliable semi-auto shotgun with a detachable magazine. My high school friend (who introduced me to my new gunsmith friend) has a Panzer Arms BP-12. It's small, cheap, has a detachable 5 round magazine, and is more tolerant of different varieties of ammo than the TS12 is. He hasn't shot it yet, but when I get some time on it, I'll be sure to let you know my experiences with it over on the appropriate thread. The Black Aces Tactical Pro Series Bullpup also has a pump action version that should be more able to use different 12 gauge varieties and side step issues of gas pistons in shotguns. Note that after a little search with reviews on these guns, some people did also report issues with shot shells and recommended using high brass ones instead.


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« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 01:20:19 AM by Chowwow » Logged
CodeSection
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2021, 03:31:03 AM »

Here you go.....http://civilinquiry.jud.ct.gov/CaseDetail/PublicCaseDetail.aspx?DocketNo=HHDCV206121922S.  I'm not sure how you were searching, but if you went to case search (http://civilinquiry.jud.ct.gov/GetDocket.aspx) and typed in the full docket number (HHD-CV20-6121922-S), it gets you to the same page.

Once there, scroll toward the middle of the page and you can start clicking on the BLUE description links to open up the documents. Start with the first "summons" and proceed to click everything thereafter.  Again, it is interesting reading and I'm glad I found it.  

I probably would not have researched the Better Business Bureau if you hadn't posted the company's response to you.  I appreciate you making those posts, thank you.  The BBB then led me to search the CT courts' cases.  I'm surprised you didn't find the case.  But now you have the links to help you.

After reading the various complaints with individuals posting on various threads, complaints with the BBB, and the litigation in the CT Superior Court, I have decided the DP-12 is not reliable enough for my purpose.  I'm still investigating the TS12.  

A friend and his father recently bought Panzer Arms BP-12s and seem to like them.  My friend was really wanting a Benelli M4, but after waiting for over seven months, decided on the Panzer Arms BP-12.  Long story short, he had put a large deposit down and eventually found out the LGS had received shipments in but filled orders AFTER his since the price went up significantly as to when he "purchased" his.....unethical business practice with that particular LGS.

Maybe I will look into a Benelli M4 .....reduced rounds, but reliable.  Plus, as you pointed out in a way, Benelli is a large company and does not necessarily have cashflow problems that other manufacturers may be faced with.

 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 03:39:10 AM by CodeSection » Logged
Chowwow
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2021, 01:27:49 AM »

Thanks a lot for spoon feeding me the information; I was having a lot of trouble getting at it. The lawsuit is very interesting and I'll be following it. To people who didn't read the links; the lawsuit involves an off-duty police officer who bought a DP-12 in 2019 and got struck by shrapnel upon the 6th shot with it. He was using Federal shotgun ammo (not sure what kind), and according to his autopsy of the DP-12, the 5th shot on the right barrel must have damaged the locking mechanism on the left barrel, producing a gap between the bolt and the chamber where debris could escape down the shell ejection well upon the 6th shot. He's suing Standard Manufacturing, Federal ammunition and the gun store he got the DP-12 from.

I hate to play devil's advocate but I do have to say this: my initial impressions of the incident tell me that it was a freak accident ("product malfunction" according the the documents). I haven't heard of similar issues from people online about the gun and I have personally fired the gun at least 200 times. Further more, the serial number of the Plaintiff's DP-12 (DP17254) indicates it was a very early model compared to one like mine (my serial number was over the 30000s, assuming they make the numbers in order) which is odd to me since the purchase was made in 2019 and should have been a pretty recent model if sold new (also, 32000+ DP-12s in the wild seems kinda small to me, the gun can't be that scarce). The docket also suspects that the gun's materials were inferior, but that would have to be proven in court and hired, expert opinions have a tenancy to favor the party that hired them. The Plaintiff also seems to be shooting at everyone; I believe Standard Manufacturing should answer for this but I doubt Federal sold defective ammunition and I don't see how the gun store is culpable in any way unless they misrepresented the sale and sold the Plaintiff a damaged, used gun. That having been said, I do take these claims seriously and I hope SM studies what went wrong and help this man recover. I honestly think the danger is very remote, but I will be wearing my plate carrier with the DP-12 for awhile when I use it.

This case just goes to show you how much we put our lives in our own hands when we handle guns; we are using simple machines to ignite controlled explosives to launch metallic objects a considerable distance away at lethal velocities - there is risk born into it. The thing to remember about bullpups is that the firing action of the chamber is located much closer to your face than a traditional firearm, so the risk of an explosion going off in your face is going to be elevated. Both the KSG/KS7 and the DP-12 have downward facing ejection chutes for their shells, and that exposes the shooter's abdomen to what the guy in the lawsuit got. When the bolts close to fire, this shouldn't happen but the risk is elevated versus a side facing ejection chute. If you look hard enough, you'll find fatal errors and risk in just about anything, but if you really want to reduce your risk, you probably shouldn't be shooting anything at all. Alternatively, listening to advice from people who have survived warzones as civilians, the best weapons to protect yourself are simple, common weapons with available ammunition. Anything high-tech or complex is a liability when things are uncertain.

I understand that SM's actions leave a sour taste in your mouth, and it seems like they have a history with it. This video about their S333 Thunderstruck revolver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUm-VgnHNC4, shows that they do make substandard, gimmicky items and then brush things under the rug when issues rise up. They did quietly upgrade the S333 to address the issue but did not make a recall. Most of the BBB complaints are about the SKO being a quirky thing, and while I have barely did any research on it, it does not bode well. The DP-12 seems to be their baby and a lot of energy seems to be spent on keeping it up and up. That must be partially due to it being their most famous product, but it could also partly because it's based on an Ithaca shotgun design that has been doubled up and bullpuped (according to scuttlebutt). It's fascinating to see how back in 2016, SM gave everyone short of a reach-around when it came to supporting the DP-12, but now they are on this huge defensive when it comes to service. Still, I hope I've convinced you to give the DP-12 at least some of your time and give the gun itself a chance.

I will continue to document my service experience up until I get by gun back. I might have already resolved my issue by cleaning it, but I want to hear SM's explanation of the situation. Then I'll give it another serious go and see how it works out. I intend to go head-to-head in clay shooting with other bullpup shotguns owned by friends which include a KSG, BP-12, and an Escort BTS12. I'll be interested in seeing how the gun holds its own when someone is serious with it.
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Chowwow
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« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2021, 01:56:58 PM »

Got back the DP-12 yesterday for RMA work and I must say I am satisfied with the work.

After the last email exchange with Rich I heard nothing from SM. As I mentioned before, I told them that I would not pay for return shipping or accept the return until I was given service, be it actual work on the gun or advice on how to keep it reliable. On June 1st I got a notice that the gun was being shipped. While it was nice not to have to pay the $50 they wanted for return shipping, I was afraid they were washing their hands of the situation and just bagging it up and sending it back.

When it arrived on June 3rd, I expected the worse and came away surprised. The gun had been cleaned and given a nice layer of grease. Most noticeable was the cleaned out bolt and extractors: before they were brown in a way that worried me, but now I see the internals have been polished to a healthy black finish. My gunsmith friend said the old pics showed significant fouling, but I swear it was like that when I bought the gun. Furthermore, the trigger feels tighter and more crisp, and I noticed that the bottom set screw has a red ring around it. My friend checked it with a hex wrench and noticed the screw was tight and no longer had any slack like it did before. I haven't shot it yet but I plan to go out and do so tomorrow.

When my friend looked at the gun, he exclaimed "Those motherf****ers!" and gave it a clean bill of health. Before, when I tested it with aluminum snap caps, they would get jammed into the extractor claws and I would have to pull them out; I never had problems with spent shotgun cases though. When he tested it with the same snap caps, they ejected free and clear like regular shells. We also suspected that they did trigger work now that the trigger felt different. The strange thing about all of this is that no one at SM told me they did any of the work, nor did anyone give me advice on anything. In their correspondence to me, they said that there were no problems with the gun, then proceeded to fix the problems and ship it back on their own dime. Methinks someone above Rich noticed what was being said, then forced him or got someone else to do the work and ship it back, no questions asked.

I'm excited to try it on the range to see how it goes. It would be good to see how a DP-12 looks and acts in its prime, so we know what to do when it isn't.


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« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 03:00:37 PM by Chowwow » Logged
Chowwow
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« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2021, 11:57:46 PM »

Report from the range: my DP-12 works perfectly now with shot shells, with no trigger freezes or light primer strikes in my last clay shooting session. I used my low-brass Fiocchi 7/8 oz 7.5 shot shells and high-brass Rio 1-1/4 oz 8 shot shells. Good hits on clays when I was on target. Smooth pumping action and crisp trigger too. It should be noted that I was advised by a gun store associate that some new shotguns can have issues firing low-brass shells until you've broken it in with high-brass loads. I'm also standing by my brother-in-law's advice that I needed to clean my gun more often. So for the time being, I'll be following a more regular cleaning regimen and I'll be using a mix of high- and low- brass shells during clay shooting.

One more thing; the Rios had very high felt recoil over my Fiocchis (both were 1330 fps), enough to make a bruise on my shoulder, lol. It seems that there is not much recoil buffering in the DP-12 and that in cases with moderate and high powered loads, the felt recoil can still be punishing as it is on regular shotguns. Semi-auto shotguns (bullpup or not) typically have recoil springs in them that help lessen felt recoil a greater deal than a pump action would, though outside of low-recoil loads I don't see that making a major difference in overall felt recoil.

Anyway, I'm happy with the way things tuned out, though I wish Standard Manufacturing/Connecticut Shotgun's technicians and customer service reps would have the humility to admit their problems and announce their fixes. It was a ride to get here, I'll say that.
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