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Author Topic: AUG Ergonomic Improvement Concepts - Prototyping Phase  (Read 740 times)
Mr.Tucker
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« on: February 18, 2021, 01:15:59 PM »

Gents, for those who have contributed to the previous "Take 2" thread, many thanks. Over 20,000 views, and 200 comments have resulted in refined product ideas, and I think I have enough now to do limited runs of functional prototypes for testing and evaluation.

For Those who are unfamiliar with the Working Thread that lead to this phase, here's the link: http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=14547.220

Unknown to the Forum, a number of you have contacted me separately through email and Discord, which has made feedback and conversation much easier. Thank you all for your comments and support, your advice and criticism.

All have helped develop the AUG concepts and another advanced project which will be unveiled after Patents have been confirmed.

If you're interested in collaborating, assisting or volunteering any resources/shop work/critiques and advice, please PM me with your email and/or Discord ID, or send me an Invite.

Mine is :Tucker.M#1831



On to the Project:


I've done some extensive work the past few days, and over the past few months I've invested in machining equipment, a 3D Printer and various tools to start prototyping out of Aluminum Alloys. I now have the designs, the means, and the tools. Once I'm home, I will have the time.

I need the following to broaden the design regime:

A3 M1 Receiver to top Rail interface Pictures and Dimensions.

Beta Testers for the Next batch of Version 3 AUG A3 SA Parts and A3 M1 parts (once dimensions for the M1 have been confirmed and modeled of course).

Attached is a teaser (shrunk to keep any unseemly industry types from reverse engineering the specs....)  
 


* AUG A5 Shrunk.JPG (19.16 KB, 533x195 - viewed 61 times.)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 01:25:39 PM by Mr.Tucker » Logged
housertl
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2021, 09:12:42 AM »

If you could get the interface measurements you need from an M1 rail, I have one I can send you.
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Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2021, 01:49:00 PM »

That would be awesome. I could really make good use of that, and send it back of course when complete. I donít get home till April, so no rush. Thanks House.

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housertl
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2021, 05:48:44 PM »

Good deal. Shoot me a PM with the address when you're ready for it, and I'll get it on the way.
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steelrain82
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2021, 06:33:31 PM »

Honestly, the stock alone would probably be enough of an upgrade on its own. Especially, if the pistol grip could be modified enough to accept AR grips.
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Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2021, 08:10:30 PM »

Worth A look. There's allot going on 'under the hood' as well, in terms of improving the internal components for better ergos, durability, precisions....etc.

If I do end up drawing up a stock that takes AR Pistol Grips, it's going to take AR Mags as well, and AR Trigger components, and an AR Style Mag release forward of the trigger. A number of folks in the previous project thread pounded that option home. So yeah! We'll see!
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housertl
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2021, 09:00:43 PM »

Hahahahahaha. I'm always on the opposite side of what everyone else wants. I prefer the standard mag release; even though it's a little slower to reload, I prefer to defaulting to retaining empty mags, and dumping them on the ground as a conscious choice.

I'm a bit of a wierdo, though.
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Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2021, 08:45:53 AM »

No arguments here to your last point House.  Wink (I really don't know you well enough to say that, so I mean that in jest. God knows I'm just as weird, if not more)

I agree with the mentality of sticking with the AUG mags in an AUG design. I also agree that it's possible to redesign the AUG to take AR parts and pieces, but with due recognition to the limitations and cost of doing so. Here's why.

1. The AUG is doomed to disappear as a proliferated service weapon unless Steyr addresses the fundamental drawbacks in it's design when compared to more recent designs. Over the past 44 years, emerging technologies, warfighting experience and shooting techniques/training have informed modern firearm designs and their accessories here in the US. The innovations here in the US, in turn, have significantly influenced the small arms modernization efforts of our allies and adversaries around the world. Countries that have owned AUGs are now buying US made AR style weapons over the AUG, not because the AUG is bad, but because the competition is better at meeting the demand and expanded envelope of performance expected of modern weapons.  

2. No product is perfect, or can please anyone 100% as People will ultimately adapt that product to their preferences, whatever they may be, unless it's Tacos. Tacos are perfect.

3. The US Firearms industry is like any other consumer based industry, and it demands two things, which are fundamentally opposed: What is the mainstream standard (which is heavily influenced by the infinite spectrum of personal preference)? And is it really a quantifiable Standard or more of a Popularity contest? and does your product depart from that "standard" in a meaningful/attractive way that makes you want to buy it? It's also like other industries in that the aftermarket offerings, in targeting consumers, usually offer better components when compared to OEM parts and pieces. The fact you can dress up a $600 PSA with $1000's in rails, grips, stocks, sights, optics, mags, lights, lasers, suppressors....America. Same with a Honda Civic.

4. People usually don't buy what they don't want, because it usually means having to buy the thing they do want, later. I still chuck the A2 pistol grip in a AR lower parts kit in favor of an aftermarket grip, which I have to buy separately. I still won't buy your $3000 AR because 60% of the stuff you put on it, I don't want, and I can build what I do want for half that price. AUGs are not as popular as they could be when compared to X95s and MDRs because it lacks features the others have standard. So, people don't buy AUGs as much as other bullpups, and Steyr wonders why they're not popular here. It's the rifle I Love to hate, and Hate to Love.

5. Good products start out proprietary, but end up as the 'Gold Standard' to which all others are measured, hence why things are compared to ARs, AKs, R870s, M500's, R700s, Glocks, 1911s...etc.  

6. Modularity and 'future proofing' are the lynchpins to a low cost, enduring design and platform.

7. Q: At what point does adapting something to work with something else, necessitate a redesign of the original component so that adaptation is not necessary, but is now compatible by design? A: When the design of the thing you're trying to adapt to is so successful and so necessary, that ignoring the Gold Standard will incur a loss of interest and marketing prospects. I.E., Does it take Glock/AR Mags? Nope? Moving on.

8. Does adapting that design to something else come at a cost, and is it really worth it? IE The AUG NATO Stock losing 3 major features to take AR Mags. Is it possible to lose market interest through changing a feature of your design? IE: The AUG A3 M1 Receiver compared to the A3 SA?

9. Adaptation only works so well, with diminishing returns. Use the thing designed for the thing!! If the thing doesn't do the things other things do better, then redesign the original thing, or use the better thing!! My Marine friend provides the following example: "Can you use a K-Bar to cut 30lbs of Potatoes? Yes. You can. But would it be easier with a Chefs Knife? Yes it would. Would putting a Chef's knife handle on the K-Bar improve the performance of cutting potatoes? Maybe. But would it be as good as or better than the Chefs Knife? No. Would reshaping the K-Bar to resemble a Chef's Knife be worth it? No. And once you're done cutting the potatoes, would your Potato cutting K-Bar/ Chef Knife Hybrid now be as good as it's original intended Purpose. No." So it is with guns. Adapters only work so well. If you want to turn an AR into a Bullpup, you can't approach it from the standpoint of adaptation using a kit or a modified part. You have to re-engineer the receivers around the core operating components. Same for the AUG. Lithgow Arms did that with their updated receivers and stocks and achieved great results for their modernized AUGs.

10. The Firearms consumer industry is fundamentally different from Military Acquisitions and the logistics required to sustain a Small Arms program. They have very different approaches to how they purchase and change firearms. The Firearms industry is focused on pleasing consumers and allowing the customization and personalization of firearms, with a wide standard for quality (think Hi-Point vs. Kimber) and interoperability (ARs vs. AKs vs. Bullpup vs. Lever vs. Bolt....etc). Conventional Militaries focus on standardization of their small arms, general reliability and commonality of parts, pieces, devices, and training. Normal Service members are not allowed to customize or modify the internal components of their issued rifle, and have little wiggle room in terms of permanent ergonomic improvements. Sure, you can put a grip-pod on, or a KAC broom handle, but that better be off the rifle when you turn it back into the Armory. Depending on the Military's allocations for unit property, optic options are usually the CCO, ACOG or the MATECH BUIS and that's it, and you'd be lucky to get the first two on your issued weapon in a non-infantry unit. The AR is proliferated in the US because of the Military's Acquisition of the AR. The AR is popular among US civilians because it is OUR Service Rifle, and it's a damn good one. It's popularity is increased by the Firearms Industry through making the AR more modular and customizable to personal tastes and application. Legos for Men. Civilians love it because they want to emulate the Warriors of their Nation, Love to shoot, and want to protect their rights, home and property with the best equipment available to them. Veterans also want to continue using their service rifle, and non-veterans want their experience. Hence the Training industry combined with the Consumer market yielding some of the most awesome advancements in Firearms tech and improvements in the world, right here in the US. This is something we don't see in Europe because they do not allow the widespread recreational, practical, and patriotic use of military style firearms.

If Austria had a similar Gun culture and industry to the US, the AUG would have many more noticeable accoutrements similar to an AR, and be much further down it's generational developments than it is currently. It doesn't. But it could, hence this project.

 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 08:56:39 AM by Mr.Tucker » Logged
housertl
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2021, 10:47:29 AM »

I hear you and agree with all points. I hope my last comment didn't come across as a criticism of what you're working at. I was really poking fun at the fact that virtually every thing I like and dislike about the AUG are the exact opposite of what almost everyone else likes and dislikes. In light of that, just do the opposite of whatever I suggest, and you'll be better off.  Grin
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 10:50:24 AM by housertl » Logged
Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2021, 11:46:36 AM »

Oh believe me, I got a good laugh out of your comment. We're on the same page that way. Good stuff.

There's been loads of back and forth on the project between you, Corrigan, Mig and others. All refining stuff though. I think in the end that was goal:

Make an AUG parts stock

Make an AR parts stock

And see which one wins out.
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Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2021, 12:01:26 PM »

A Long time ago Housertl, you said this:

"I have accomplished the same thing using the Midwest rail, and the RS Regulate BM-2 Yugo rail. Apparently Yugo AK barrels, between the gas block and the lower handguard retainer, have the same outer diameter as the AUG barrel. I mounted an AFG2 onto it, and it does exactly what I wish all the foregrip rails do. Namely, my complaint with all of them is that they add unnecessary vertical depth to the rail. If someone were to make a foregrip rail that had a gooseneck bend to tuck the rail as close to the barrel as possible, Iíd be on that like a fat kid on cake. Iím not super enthusiastic about clamping anything to my barrel, even though I have seen no negative impact to accuracy."

I hope you're ready for a tour of Willy Wonka's Cake section, because you're about to indulge the inner Fat Kid in all of us.
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Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2021, 10:06:07 AM »

WIP:

AR Trigger Pack. Dead on Arrival. Deleted due to potential patent infringement. Notified by the affected party. I cannot pursue my current design and assembly due to similar function to the affected patent.


« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:19:34 PM by Mr.Tucker » Logged
Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2021, 10:07:44 AM »

Deleted due to potential patent infringement.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:19:45 PM by Mr.Tucker » Logged
Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2021, 10:08:20 AM »

Deleted due to potential patent infringement.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:19:54 PM by Mr.Tucker » Logged
Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2021, 10:13:27 AM »

[deleted]
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:14:34 PM by Mr.Tucker » Logged
Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2021, 10:35:13 AM »

Last bit.

These Resemble the final build. I've got two more things to draw: Bolt release tab, and finishing the butt plate. Everything else is done.

I know these are exposed on the internet. I know it's possible for someone to steal these designs and concepts if they were so inclined. I know that I took a break from the AUG A5 project because I was hammering out another superior rifle design using and applying lessons learned which will remain under wraps until patents are complete.

In that regard, not all the cards are being shown.

But I do appreciate the people that have made contact, have shared ideas, and contributed to this design, so these are for you. There's allot in this thing which would not have been included were it not for your input, and there's much yet to come as I get into actually making and testing these. More help will be needed.

Shout outs to:

Housertl
Mig1nc
Jibbity
Corrigan
Dunhillmc
Faolan
Sputnik90
Clarke-Sensei
Steelrain82 (your name sounds like a mortarman....)
Dushan

Thanks for all your comments and critiques. They all informed the design, and I hope you can detect some of your influence and preferences in the final draft of the AUG A5. I read through the original post over the past few days to make sure I captured the improvements, which I think I have. So, thanks!!



So, as promised nearly a year ago, as the AUG compatible version finishes up, focus will shift to an AR-15 style controls layout, magazines, trigger pack....etc. Hopefully, that doesn't take another year to get done, but we'll see.





* 1.JPG (44.06 KB, 1187x655 - viewed 15 times.)

* A5 Complete.JPG (96.69 KB, 1549x671 - viewed 17 times.)

* STEYR A5 concept 2.jpg (120.38 KB, 1422x476 - viewed 13 times.)

* AUG A5 Concept Sketch 3.2.JPG (82.22 KB, 1551x569 - viewed 15 times.)
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Faolan
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2021, 07:22:52 PM »

I look forward to seeing these things materialize, good work!
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housertl
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2021, 07:57:58 PM »

A Long time ago Housertl, you said this:

"I have accomplished the same thing using the Midwest rail, and the RS Regulate BM-2 Yugo rail. Apparently Yugo AK barrels, between the gas block and the lower handguard retainer, have the same outer diameter as the AUG barrel. I mounted an AFG2 onto it, and it does exactly what I wish all the foregrip rails do. Namely, my complaint with all of them is that they add unnecessary vertical depth to the rail. If someone were to make a foregrip rail that had a gooseneck bend to tuck the rail as close to the barrel as possible, Iíd be on that like a fat kid on cake. Iím not super enthusiastic about clamping anything to my barrel, even though I have seen no negative impact to accuracy."

I hope you're ready for a tour of Willy Wonka's Cake section, because you're about to indulge the inner Fat Kid in all of us.

Cool! I was actually coming back to ask you about designing a one off lower rail specifically to work with the now defunct MI rail. I'd be interested in this, too.
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Mr.Tucker
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2021, 08:32:34 AM »

Housertl:

Boom. MFB Version 623. Should work great with the MI rail.

3 MLok slots on the bottom.

Flush with the 40 slot top rail.

3 set screws which allow for levelling the MFB.

The 2 closest to the muzzle are pointed set screws, which engage and press upward on a couple of simple lugs that are lapped to match the OD of the Barrel.

The rear set screw is flat faced, and used to achieve leveling and final tensioning of the whole assembly.

The whole MFB hinges on the folding pistol grips pin hole with a 4mm spring roll pin, keeping it aligned and from shifting forward or aft.

It requires removal of the muzzle device and jam nut to install. I'll see about a version that has a clamp similar to a scope mount or an M203 Steel U-band that wraps over the top.

This will definitely fit underneath the MI rail. 


* MFB v 623.JPG (94.15 KB, 1540x642 - viewed 12 times.)

* MFB v 623 X-Ray.JPG (182.68 KB, 1502x659 - viewed 10 times.)

* MFB v 623 Slick.JPG (66.89 KB, 1633x600 - viewed 9 times.)

* MFB Clamping Cutaway.JPG (66.67 KB, 1596x527 - viewed 11 times.)
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housertl
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« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2021, 08:42:01 AM »

So, can I pre-order this now?
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