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Author Topic: Non-Lethal Rounds  (Read 553 times)
Rickm
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« on: June 26, 2020, 05:22:11 PM »

One thing this Bullpup provides is the ability to carry and choose between both lethal and non-lethal rounds with a simple click and rotate.

Historically use of rubber bullet rounds is strongly discouraged for self defense. And I agree. Firing of any weapon for self defense or the defense of home should be shoot when threatened and shoot to kill.

However the riots and failure of states/police to respond to mob violence leads to another issue, protection of property for which use of lethal force is Illegal. Taking my gun outside the home significantly reduces its usefulness against a mob.

Would non-lethal rounds be suitable for the protection of property? Especially when lethal rounds are just a click away if self defense is required?

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thehun
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2020, 07:17:27 PM »

Unless you are certified to use non-lethal rounds as a LEO...you need to stay faaaaar away from non-lethals...
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Rickm
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2020, 10:37:08 PM »

Surely the same can be said about lethal rounds. Fortunately the law allows use of lethal rounds for protection of self, others or home.

But what options are available for the protection of your neighborhood, business or automobile?  Either bend the knee to the mob or face them with a baseball bat? LEOs are face with this daily, how to defend when lethal force is not warranted. A tazor is not effective against a mob.

What would be better than the TS12 with one tube loaded with bean bag shots?
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Clarke-Sensei
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2020, 03:57:18 AM »

I always thought the best rational is that if you are pulling a gun on someone, and have the intent to fire, you believe your life is in danger and that lethal force is necessary.

Always saw non-lethal as the foolish optimist's choice.
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thehun
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2020, 11:18:40 AM »

Surely the same can be said about lethal rounds. Fortunately the law allows use of lethal rounds for protection of self, others or home.

But what options are available for the protection of your neighborhood, business or automobile?  Either bend the knee to the mob or face them with a baseball bat? LEOs are face with this daily, how to defend when lethal force is not warranted. A tazor is not effective against a mob.

What would be better than the TS12 with one tube loaded with bean bag shots?

If you use non-lethal rounds as a civilian...you better have deep pockets...because you will get sued...and you will lose in court...if you end up using them on someone(s)...

If you do not believe that lethal force is "warranted" in a situation you are in...it is best to walk-away...the best fight is the fight you never get into...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 11:22:28 AM by thehun » Logged
Rickm
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2020, 11:32:42 AM »

So when the mob comes to my neighborhood to destroy property and steal stuff, and the police have abandoned the area, what options are available for the protection of your neighborhood, property or automobile?

Walk away or bend the knee is the only answer to avoid getting sued?

The law allows use of force to protect property. What force can you use against a mob?
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whiskey91lima
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2020, 12:32:37 PM »

It depends on your state's laws. Many states allow for the use of lethal force to defend life and property. The trouble is that currently the mob has political support meaning the justice system will be against you.
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thehun
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2020, 12:49:31 PM »

So when the mob comes to my neighborhood to destroy property and steal stuff, and the police have abandoned the area, what options are available for the protection of your neighborhood, property or automobile?

Walk away or bend the knee is the only answer to avoid getting sued?

The law allows use of force to protect property. What force can you use against a mob?

Depending on laws in your state...use of force differs. I can tell you...you better not use force to protect a physical property unless there is a life or lives at direct danger at said property (your material things inside do not justify the use of force regardless if it is less-than-lethal or lethal).

Again, I can tell you...the DA will have your head on a stake if you use less-than-lethal rounds...I can guarantee you that...
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mpd3285
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2020, 03:18:29 PM »

As a LEO and less lethal/bean bag round instructor/user, every bean bag , super sock, rubber buck, ferret or specialty round like these for 12 ga I have used does not cycle a semi auto shot gun. You can obviously cycle the bolt, but these rounds are made for pumps.
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Steyr AUG= Austrian combat Legos since 1977.
Why SBR when you can AUG?! - Haven't we been taxed enough already?
Rickm
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2020, 03:33:34 PM »

Good to know. Thank you.
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Rickm
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2020, 09:39:08 PM »

As a LEO and less than lethal instructor, what are the options for citizens to protect neighbor hood, business and property from the looting mobs?
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mpd3285
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2020, 10:10:42 AM »

Laws will vary from state to state on the protection of property vs. defense of life.  As far as "mob defense", chems (OS/CN/CS) is probably the most effective method for dealing with a crowd. I haven't shopped for civilian crowd size spray, but a cloud of any pepper spray will certainly deter/delay a crowd(or individual) advance against property. I would look at your specific states laws about defense of habitation or property. I suspect there will be 2 clauses.  One for "violent and tumultuous entry(use of force to enter like breaking glass,kicking a door), and one for any entry (violent or not, think open or unlocked door, ninja burglars, etc) for the purposes of committing a forcible felony (rape, robbery, murder, arson, kidnapping, aggravated assault).
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Steyr AUG= Austrian combat Legos since 1977.
Why SBR when you can AUG?! - Haven't we been taxed enough already?
semper paratus
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2020, 12:03:35 PM »

as a retired LEO - the above advise is the best -- get yourself a large can of bear mace.  again check your laws -- if you go to a large --REAL - gun show you can find CS cans but I would not use then unless all hell was breaking loose and then only to cover my escape.

You always have to be aware of any civil action that can and will be taken against you --- even if you win -- you loose $$$

example --- a large violent crowd is coming down your street -- you think - smoke or CS -- a person looses his vision and walks into oncoming traffic --- who do you think they are going to  come after in court. does living in a cardboard box sound like fun.

All those officer involved cases in the news --  at least 1/2 will be dismissed in criminal court but then you got civil.

honestly, don't even bother with less lethal --- If your life or another's is NOT in jeopardy -- walk away

Also, just because you can, does not mean that you should -- ex -- Florida's stand your ground -- remember that idiot that got pushed to the ground and then shot the guy --- when he gets out of jail he'll be living in a cardboard box
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mpd3285
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2020, 01:33:04 PM »

I'd also add, get some decent cameras for your property and have a "what if" plan that includes "stop the bleed" medical supplies like CAT TQs, wound packing gauze, etc.

Lots of gun owners don't consider their needs past pulling the trigger, like if you win, lose, or tie, somebody (mainly you or your loved ones) may need treatment for a field controlable bleed (mainly extremities).

It will also work in your benefit legally, if you do have to use lethal force, if you can provide some aid to whomever is shot, possibly including the adversary, but only if its practical,( and it isnt always or even the smart thing to do, this is highly situationally dependent,  but having a "I just plan on letting em bleed out" plan isnt thinking possible confrontations through). You will come out better legally if the shooting does not appear to the jury to be out of anger or punishment,  but for the purpose of stopping (not necessarily by killing) the violence against you or a third party.  In summary, have medical options post shoot but use them wisely and tactfully without putting yourself at greater risk.
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Steyr AUG= Austrian combat Legos since 1977.
Why SBR when you can AUG?! - Haven't we been taxed enough already?
Rickm
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2020, 02:16:43 PM »

Great discussion and thank you. I see unfolding a greater need to think about self protection and defense of property as it is more and more likely that police, fire and medical services cannot be relied upon.

Retreat and protect life is I agree the best legal approach. But when we retreat and hide, our cities and businesses burn. Helpless people are abandoned. I am not OK with this. At some point we have have to stand up and say not my street, not my business, not my city.

If politicians are not willing to do this, then someone else must. Perhaps not now, but it may well come to this. At least it is worth discussing .

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