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| | | |-+  WANTED: non-NFA PS90 with 10.4" barrel
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Author Topic: WANTED: non-NFA PS90 with 10.4" barrel  (Read 3368 times)
MikeC
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« on: July 31, 2019, 10:46:16 AM »

The Franklin Armory Reformation line have barrels with straight grooves in them to avoid NFA paperwork and delay times.  In July 2019, Franklin Armory sold separately their 11" uppers with straight grooves that can be attached to any lower with a full stock, forward pistol grip, etc.

I want a PS90 with a 10.4" straight groove barrel.  As with the Reformation line, this would be classified as a non-NFA "firearm"

I've contacted both Franklin Armory and CMMG, asking that they consider a contract/collaboration with each other to produce such a barrel.  I also believe CMMG would benefit by producing a banshee line with straight groove barrels and full stocks.

Other than these producers, does anyone know of anyone else who may be willing to produce such a barrel?
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thehun
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2019, 11:27:11 AM »

Reformation is the stupidest thing ever created...unless you want a 35 yard gun only...

However...you cannot redesign a rifle into something else...its registered as a rifle by FN to the ATF when it was made...only way to "redesign it" is through the NFA sbr reclassification process and at that point...you might as well just put a proper barrel in it...

« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 11:28:56 AM by thehun » Logged
MikeC
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2019, 03:05:58 PM »

A less than 35 yard gun is what I want.
That's why I bought the Reformation RS7.  I love it.
7 yard kill machine, but ammo loses a lot of its energy after so many yards, like a shotgun?
Thatís great! - I won't accidently kill my neighbors.  (I live on a large farm)

I hate recreational shooting.
You wonít find me punching paper at 100 yards.
I only use guns when I have to kill something.

Wife b****es all the time that something is killing her chickens.
Skunks, opossums, weasels, other aerial varmints I wonít mentionÖ  BOOM!
Shooting in the sky, shooting in the dark, shooting while running.
ButÖ  no varmints more than 35 yards away.

I thought the same thing you did - about the PS90 being a "rifle" and putting a straight groove barrel in it wouldn't reclassify it as a "firearm" like the Reformation line.  However, Franklin Armory was selling uppers of their Reformation RS11, saying they could be installed on any rifle lower with a full stock.  I'm sure they checked before selling them and making such a claim.

So now I want a non-NFA PS90 with a 10.4" barrel.
Shotguns are too easy.  I need a challenge when I go to kill something.
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thehun
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2019, 07:05:07 PM »

Well Franklin Armory is wrong...you can't replace a barrel...even with a straight groove barrel...and automatically reclassifying the rifle...that won't happen...ever...ever...ever...not possible...especially on a PS90 that is registered as a rifle.

On an AR it can be easier...when you purchase a lower...have it ran as a handgun receiver...than you can do it and slap a Reformation upper on it no problem.

But if the lower is registered as a rifle...no way you can...legally...

35 yards or less...might as well get on of those short shotgun pistols...

But if you put a "straight groove" barrel into your PS90...you are violating law...remember...a component does not re-classify a firearm...just like a brace...doesnt reclassify a pistol as a SBR...same concept here...a barrel swap...grooved or not...does not reclassifying the PS90 to non-NFA with a straight groove rifling...when it was registered as a rifle the first place.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 08:27:59 PM by thehun » Logged
Zeiram3f
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2019, 09:11:12 PM »

Iíd say a 22lr is all youíre looking for given your criteria. The receiver on a PS90 is registered as a rifle. Iím pretty sure it can only be just that as the law is written.
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Hkbeltfed
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2019, 07:43:00 PM »

I donít agree with the above. It doesnít matter what itís registered as or what it once was, it matters what it is now and how itís configured. Take a PS90 and stick a 10Ē barrel on it and itís a SBR, legal with paperwork, illegal without, but regardless in that configuration, itís a SBR. Take a pistol, add a 16Ē barrel and a stock and it becomes a rifle and itís legal, it doesnít matter what it was registered as, or once was, itís a rifle now. Take an AR15 lower which is an other, build it as a pistol and itís a pistol, build it as a rifle and itís a rifle, build it as a firearm and itís a firearm, again all of which are legal and none of which matter what it was registered as or once was. And on and on.
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thehun
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2019, 10:16:23 PM »

It 100% matters.

You cannot take a firearm that is registered as a rifle from the factory and re classify it as a pistol by just adding a brace and short barrel. The accessory does not carry reclassification. It matters how the receiver was logged...period.

So if you bought a rifle...itís a rifle unless you SBR and go the NFA way.

It is how the law is written.

In this example...the PS90 is a rifle...you cannot make it into a ďfirearmĒ classification by just swapping barrels.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 10:18:12 PM by thehun » Logged
Hkbeltfed
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 02:31:27 PM »

Well, hereís an ATF letter that says otherwise...

https://franklinarmory.com/content/Reformation%20Letter.pdf

Hereís the relevant excerpt...

https://imgur.com/a/b0kxRv5

They say it is now possible to MAKE firearms which were ORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO BE FIRED FROM THE SHOULDER having barrels less than 18Ē in length (OP proposes 10Ē), and/or an overall length less than 26Ē (as the OP intends) with straight lands and grooves (again as the OP is inquiring about).

I also notice you do not dispute any of the examples I provided in my previous post.

That said, I donít wish to bicker with you about this, you can believe whatever you want.
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thehun
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 03:51:46 PM »

Ok. You are totally missing my point here regarding the PS90...

Again.

You cannot redesign a rifle that has been designated from factory as a rifle. Period. You just canít. A rifle always stays as a rifle..unless you play the NFA game.

PS90 offered by FN is a Rifle...FN registers it as a rifle...when you pick one up from a FFL...it gets checked in as a rifle. It cannot be checked in as OTHER or Pistol because it is not.

Changing out the barrel DOES NOT change its original rifle classification.

Either you buy a compete reformation from Franklin Armory or you would have to start with a virgin, new lower receiver ... that was not made into a rifle previously when checked into a FFL.

But if you all want to challenge the ATF by installing reformation type barrels into a registered rifle...do it. Iíd love to hear how it pans out.

But it all starts how your complete firearm was MADE INTO from factory or how a virgin lower receiver was checked into the system when the background check is ran during pick up.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 04:06:56 PM by thehun » Logged
Hkbeltfed
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 07:25:42 PM »

And you totally missed my point... what is ďORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO BE FIRED FROM THE SHOULDERĒ? A rifle is. The answer is right there from the ATF, but you donít want to read it.
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thehun
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2019, 07:31:42 PM »

I know the laws regulating firearms...donít worry.
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Zeiram3f
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2019, 10:04:25 PM »

I think itís possible to purchase an Effen 90 receiver, an unrifled barrel, mate the two and register the receiver as a shotgun, yes? At this point, youíre paying $2k for a short range Ďshotguní, when a ks7, or ksg would be far superior.
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thehun
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2019, 11:08:33 PM »

Yup.
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thehun
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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2019, 09:04:12 AM »

And you totally missed my point... what is ďORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO BE FIRED FROM THE SHOULDERĒ? A rifle is. The answer is right there from the ATF, but you donít want to read it.

What matters at the end of the day is how the firearm or virgin lower receiver was checked in as...periooooooood....

But you go on and buy a Reformation barrel....install it in a rifle that was registered as a rifle...and challenge the ATF...I bet you will lose...
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Zeiram3f
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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2019, 10:40:50 AM »

Correct. With the upper being the registered component, I believe it actually does require an Effen90, as the factory upper will have originally been registered. Frankensteining a PS90 together is possible, but thatís still a $2k endeavor.
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The Heretic
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2019, 04:51:36 PM »

If the firearm was a pistol or "other" (e.g., a reciever that has not yet been designated as rifle or pistol) at manufacture, then it can be configured as a rifle (with 16+" barrel and stock) after being configured as a pistol. You can then reconfigure it as a pistol (but it cannot have a shoulder stock if the barrel is less than 16").

Look up the court case for Thompson Center v. ATF. The ATF argued that once a pistol became a rifle, it stayed a rifle, i.e., once a rifle always a rifle. The court did not agree - the ATF lost.

However, you cannot configure a firearm that was manufactured as a rifle to be a pistol - with a barrel shorter than 16", in the USA it becomes a Short Barreled Rifle.

For 'Shockwave" type "firearms", a similar ruling logic is that the receiver can never have been a shotgun. If it was never a shotgun, if it isn't a pistol (not concealable since is it longer than 26") and it isn't a rifle (no rifling), then it is simply a 'firearm' according to the ATF's interpretation of the law and regs. Also, you can't take a pistol and put a smoothbore barrel on it and call it a 'firearm' like the Shockwave is. I have seen opinions that say that a Shockwave can never be configured as a shotgun either and then go back to it being a 'firearm' - i.e., you cannot put a shoulder stock on it and an 18"+ barrel, and then go back to the shorter barrel without the shoulder stock (interestingly, there is no markings on the Shockwave to differentiate it from a Mossberg 590 shotgun - I assume that the ATF just knows which is which by the serial number - I can't speak to the Remington TAC firearms).

But you can't take a firearm that was manufactured as a 'rifle' and make it not a rifle. It will always be a rifle.

A PS90 or a P90 has rifling and a shoulder stock - it is a rifle and always will be a rifle. Ditto with an AR-15 that was originally manufactured as a rifle.

As for these firearms Franklin Armory puts together - I have no interest in them so I have not dug into the law/regs/rulings by the ATF. But I doubt you can put a smoothbore or straight rifling barrel on an AR rifle and have them be anything other than still a rifle.

Be very careful about reading ATF letters and opinions by online "experts" and reading into them what you want to hear. For one thing, the ATF can change their minds given the right motivation - e.g., bump stocks. I anticipate that if some nut case uses a Shockwave type firearm in a mass shooting, there will be a hue and cry for them to be banned, and that the ATF would then change their interpretation of what they are.

For another, the ATF itself doesn't always win, but they do more often than not. I would err on the side of caution.

If you want something that is close range and less lethal at distance, I would recommend a .410 shockwave, or shotshells for a pistol or rifle. For mice sized vermin a .22 RF shotshell will do the trick, but for larger critters then you need center fire. Each of these are less lethal at longer distances - which is why I have a 12 ga Shockwave for home defense, having neighbors on three sides, but at a distance of 100 yards and large trees in between.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 05:12:16 PM by The Heretic » Logged
thehun
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2019, 05:01:33 PM »

^^ Yup.

Franklin registers...to my knowledge...the Reformation...as "firearm"...since it is not a rifle, pistol or a shotgun...
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The Heretic
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2019, 05:17:28 PM »

^^ Yup.

Franklin registers...to my knowledge...the Reformation...as "firearm"...since it is not a rifle, pistol or a shotgun...

The law and the rulings on firearms do not make a lot of logical sense. There seems to be conflicts - and that is where I think people get into trouble. You would think logically 2+2=4 but not with the law.

I think maybe if you bought an AR receiver only - i.e., something you could legally configure as a pistol, then if you only ever configure it as a 'firearm' with the FA Reformation upper, you might be ok.

Personally I let others do these things as I just don't want to risk being the test case. Even if I would win in court it would be a lot of $$$ wasted (possibly more than I could afford), and the risk of prison (or at least losing all of my firearms) is too great.
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thehun
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2019, 11:21:20 AM »

Correct...you would actually need to classify a stripped lower when running your background either as "other" ... you might get away with it as a "pistol" designation. But other is the safe bet.

NOTHING, NOT ONE firearm can be reclassified if it was originally built as a rifle...like a PS90...unless you buy a virgin receiver...
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