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Author Topic: leader 50a1=junk  (Read 6857 times)
rsopha
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« on: March 19, 2019, 03:21:31 PM »

I have serial number 22 of this series of junk. I purchased this off of gunbroker from a fellow with the user name forest jump, which ended up being charles from st george arms selling from TN, while his ffl lists him in AZ. Already turned him in to the atf for that. Having been told that my first  rifle was complete and ready to ship in april of 2017 I sent the remainder of the amount due. Charles is in full possession of the full amount due for the rifle. two years has gone by and I still have not received it.

On to the one which I have received. I have put 60 rds through this thing. after many light primer strikes and failure to ejects I stopped trying. I contacted st george arms about my issues. after 2 months they finally emailed me the directions on how to field strip this scrap heap. I took the weapon to a certified master gunsmith and had him look at it to see if I was missing something. I was, the gun was firing from incomplete lock up. Due to the bolt cam being cut incorrectly the bolt was out of time. this has caused a series of issues with the gun. There are metal shavings all over and the pin that the cam rides on is nearly destroyed.

This gun was supposed to ship with a muzzle brake and magazine. It shipped with neither. It did include a nice little note that stated firing with out a brake would void my warranty. So I went out and found a muzzle brake that would fit and put it on. took to the range and the issues began.

St george arms has stated that I voided my warranty. I fired only mil surplus ammo and American eagle ammo when I was having issues with fail to eject and light primer strikes. after my issues I noticed that the primers were lightly hit so I did load up some of my own which are lower than mil spec and set the primer closer to the base of the case to see if that was the issue. light strikes again.  I measured the firing pin and big surprise its out of spec. Nothing I did to the rifle could have caused a firing pin to be to short or the cam on the bolt to be cut wrong.

I have notified st George arms and any one associated with them and given them time to respond.  Should they choose not to respond I will post all the emails back and forth here for every one to see what kind of people they are.

Ryan
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Hebrew Hammer
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2019, 04:06:36 PM »

One word when it comes to a 50 cal  Barrett
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rsopha
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2019, 04:18:21 PM »

I actually prefer My M2. I have a 107 and an 82. The 107 of the two is much easier on the shooter. The leader wasn't too bad shooting. The concerns of firing out of full lock up and loosing part of my face take the fun out of it though.
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rsopha
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2019, 02:43:07 PM »

Unfortunately this has progressed to the point of a legal battle. The rifle I did receive was inspected by a master gunsmith and the chamber was .151 to deep. The bolt closed and locked up with slop on a no go gauge. The fact that it was sent out to me with a chamber cut too deep is quite ridiculous, not to mention unsafe.
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bpguy
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2019, 09:04:27 PM »

Unfortunately this has progressed to the point of a legal battle. The rifle I did receive was inspected by a master gunsmith and the chamber was .151 to deep. The bolt closed and locked up with slop on a no go gauge. The fact that it was sent out to me with a chamber cut too deep is quite ridiculous, not to mention unsafe.
WOW .151 too deep?  Are you sure?  That is 5/32 of an inch.  If it was that far off I do not know how the rifle would even fire as I am sure the protrusion of the firing pin is not that much or it would have blown up.  The first thing I would do is send that thing back to the manufacture to get fixed.  Have you sent it back already for warranty repair?  One more question on that no/go gage that was used, do you know what the distance was marked on the gage because there are different gage lengths used for this beast and they may be using a different one than you are using.

Just some info if you did not already know on the 50 BMG
    GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gauge, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI’s maximum specifications. The GO gauge is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gauge is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.
    NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gauge, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gauge. The NO-GO gauge is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.
    FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gauge, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI’s specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gauges are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.

There is also one for the machine gun and they might be using something similar to that also but .151?  I cant seeing it even firing at all.  Send that sucker back and let us know what you get back after getting it fixed.
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bpguy
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2019, 12:40:22 PM »

Hey rsopha, what was the outcome on sending it back?  What did they say was wrong with it and did it get fixed?
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rsopha
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2019, 10:57:00 PM »

Well st George arms lost in court again yesterday. The judgment will be transferred to TN. According to documents that were filed by charles with the court he no longer has an ffl. Wonder how that happened? Although he also claimed the serial number I have a receipt for was not manufactured in court by phone conference and in documents submitted to the court. The photos from the knob creek shoot in 2016 show that weapon as manufactured on a table at the shoot with a worn bolt. I can only post actual facts as I was threatened with slander and libel suits. I was also contacted by another gentleman who claims his money has been taken for a rifle and not received it as well. Due to my initial rifle never being shipped I decided to have the rifle repaired here. I had a new barrel manufactured and had to have a new bolt cam pin made. The parts should be done after the new year. If you take a look at the page Charles has he has some new photos up quoting the bible now. Also claims patent pending. Provisional patent was filed in 2017 a patent was never issued according to the us patent office's page. Hi charles, enjoy the holidays. The judge was looking forward to meeting you, too bad you chose not to make the trip.

If any one would like the court documents I will be happy to share them as evidence to back up what I have posted here as they are public information.
 
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bpguy
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2019, 11:23:15 AM »

So I am assuming that you sent it back and they did not fix it so you decided to take them to court?
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rsopha
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2020, 03:39:06 PM »

So I am assuming that you sent it back and they did not fix it so you decided to take them to court?

No, after them no shipping the first rifle and delying my warranty claims with absurd claims I paid to have a new barrel made that was chambered properly. I also had to have a new bolt rotation pin made.

I am having my judgment transferred down to Tennessee to attempt to collect. I gave charles an opportunity to provide the rifle yet again. He failed to do so stating that he dropped parts off at a another mfg to have them made... which is not legal according to atf. The parts were turned over to the atf, one because the work was not paid for and two because chRles no longer had an ffl. There are allegations that the rights to the past present t and future versions of the rifle were signed away years ago and some one manufacturing them may not have had the rights to do so.

What I can confirm is that there is a new manufacturer who has the exclusive rights to mfg and sell the rifle. American tactical is the patent holder. Charles was listed as the inventor but signed his rights away. Let's say there is a bad case of signers remorse happening now.

The new mfg had them at shot show. Alot of small issues with the rifle were addressed making it safer and addressing some other issues.

The rifle I was sold serial number 00024 that was never delivered and was claimed in court to not have been built, was sold by Charles to a gun club. This was after I had paid for the rifle. So it was stolen property at that point. That rifle was then purchased by another person and confiscated by the atf because it was sold after Charles ffl was pulled.

Charles needs to do time In prison. I am cooperating with all legal officials involved to make sure that happens. As best we can tell there are approximately 20 individuals who were taken advantage of. 20 x $8300 is a substantial dollar amount.

If any one has been taken advantage of let me know via pm. The new mfg has offered to do what they can for us.

Charles has requested that I not post on here any more to keep things quiet. That wont happen. Taking people's money knowing you dont have the means, permission, or ability to deliver is fraud and needs to be delt with legally. I am sick and tired of the lies and excuses the man needs to be in prison so he cant can anyone again.
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bpguy
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2020, 07:33:26 PM »

So I am assuming that you sent it back and they did not fix it so you decided to take them to court?

No, after them no shipping the first rifle and delying my warranty claims with absurd claims I paid to have a new barrel made that was chambered properly. I also had to have a new bolt rotation pin made.

I am having my judgment transferred down to Tennessee to attempt to collect. I gave charles an opportunity to provide the rifle yet again. He failed to do so stating that he dropped parts off at a another mfg to have them made... which is not legal according to atf. The parts were turned over to the atf, one because the work was not paid for and two because chRles no longer had an ffl. There are allegations that the rights to the past present t and future versions of the rifle were signed away years ago and some one manufacturing them may not have had the rights to do so.

What I can confirm is that there is a new manufacturer who has the exclusive rights to mfg and sell the rifle. American tactical is the patent holder. Charles was listed as the inventor but signed his rights away. Let's say there is a bad case of signers remorse happening now.

The new mfg had them at shot show. Alot of small issues with the rifle were addressed making it safer and addressing some other issues.

The rifle I was sold serial number 00024 that was never delivered and was claimed in court to not have been built, was sold by Charles to a gun club. This was after I had paid for the rifle. So it was stolen property at that point. That rifle was then purchased by another person and confiscated by the atf because it was sold after Charles ffl was pulled.

Charles needs to do time In prison. I am cooperating with all legal officials involved to make sure that happens. As best we can tell there are approximately 20 individuals who were taken advantage of. 20 x $8300 is a substantial dollar amount.

If any one has been taken advantage of let me know via pm. The new mfg has offered to do what they can for us.

Charles has requested that I not post on here any more to keep things quiet. That wont happen. Taking people's money knowing you dont have the means, permission, or ability to deliver is fraud and needs to be delt with legally. I am sick and tired of the lies and excuses the man needs to be in prison so he cant can anyone again.
rsopha,
I have been following this thread for a long time now.  There are some allegations here that are disturbing say the least.  Can you give some details on how you know these claims are true so that we all can know how you came to these conclusions?

1. how is it not legal to have another manufacture make a rifle for you?  This is done all the time in the industry and ATF has a procedure for doing so.  And if he had parts already made he could also have another manufacturer assemble the rifle.  They would however become the manufacturer and have to put their name on the rifle to be legal.  So I am not seeing how your claim of it being not legal to do is truly a true statement.  Can you expound on how you came to this conclusion?
2. Did St. George arms refuse to take the rifle to evaluate it for your warranty claim, or did you refuse to send it to them to have it fixed?
3. How do you know these parts were turned over to the ATF?  I am sure they were transferred to another FFL as stated in question 1 and is done all the time in the industry.
4. Your claiming that rifle 24 was sold to a gun club after the license was pulled?  How do you know that his license was pulled?  ATF does not pull licenses for a first infraction.  They give several opportunities to correct the problem before it comes to this type of action.  And if he did have is license pulled they would have confiscated all of his firearms or made him transfer them into his name or another FFL.  He could then legally sell them to anyone he wants to.  So I am not sure where you are getting this clam that it was done illegally and it has now been confiscated by the ATF.
5. Who is this new manufacturer that you are saying has the rights to produce this Leader 50A1?  The way you are talking is that you have spoken to them and they are going to work some kind of a deal with you to get a rifle?
6. What is a bolt rotation pin?  Are you referring to a cam pin?
7. I was at shot show and did not see the rifle.  I am curious what booth were they in?  Were they in their own booth?  Did you see the rifle?
8. What issues were addressed that made it unsafe and what are the others that were addressed?  I am sure you have this information since making this claim

I like to get all the facts before I am able to determine if internet claims are truth or fiction.  I also have a clear understanding of how the ATF operates as I have had some dealings with them in the past and know what manufactures have to do to stay compliant.  Hence the challenging your claims about the ATF dealings and confiscation of said rifles.
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rsopha
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2020, 08:26:25 PM »

Rifle was at the true velocity booth. As to the rest of your questions.

I will simply answer them with this. Charkes has stolen my money and the mo ey of others. As far as we can tell there are approximately 20 people who were scammed.

I am not getting another rifle at this time. So no I have no deal arranged with Campbell arms. He has offered to repair my other rifle.

I have spoken with the atf regarding this. I am the one who filed the complaint with the atf about Charles. I am still in communication with them. You are mistaken on the law.

I have a few questions for you.
1. Who are you. You know who I am it only seems fair.
2. If some one stole $8,600 from you, was producing rifles in one state, selling them from another (atf violation) offered no site visits, changed their phone number, quit responding to emails, made wild accusations about you, was a belligerent dick on the phone, came unhinged in court, lost repeatedly in court because he was wrong. Would you send a rifle to them to Inspect?

I gave Charles a very clear path to resolve this. It was as follows.
1. Send me the rifle I was owed serial number 00024
2. Upon receipt of the rifle I had paid for I would send the faulty rifle 00022 back.

Seems pretty fair to me, the judge thought the same. Charles accused me of causing the excessive head space. Something I could bot have done. The rifle closes on a no go gauge with plenty of slop. Loose breach is a dangerous condition. A hang fire is a dangerous condition. Those are simple facts.

After stealing my money Charles had the gaul to ask my lawyer if I would be interested in a partnership with him to manufacture more rifles. Those of us who have been scammed are getting together and going to pursue this until he is put in jail. It is where people who steal money from people belong. It is looking more like a federal case as it spans a few states and is over $160k.
I wont forget what he did, I wont forget how he treated me when I demanded he produce what I paid for, I wont forget that I gave him a chance to make this right before every legal step I took from criminal complaints to ATF complaints to civil court. Every opportunity was given to charles to send me the property I paid for. Charles made the choice to act this way. There are legal consequences for criminals, I have the means and the ability to push for those consequences. I am a simple man but a simple man of principal and Charles has crossed me. From prison he wo t have the ability to scam another person.
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bpguy
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2020, 10:12:00 AM »

rsopha, sorry I know nothing about you except for following this post for interest.  I am just an average guy that works in the industry so I have a lot of knowledge how the law and ATF work.  And yes I would be mad if someone stole $8,600 from me and never produced the product I paid for so I understand your frustration.  I was just wanting to hear the facts and have the emotions taken out of the equation with all the accusations that were made is all.  Its easy to smear someone with not true facts, not saying that you are doing that, I just wanted some explanation on how you knew these things and came to the conclusions that you did is all.
With regards to the rifle not being sent back to get fixed, you can not claim that they would not fix it if you never sent it back.  I understand that you are owed a second one but there are 2 situations I am seeing here and it seems that they get blended together.  Personally I would have never sent the money for the second one until the first one was sent sense you knew that the second one on GB was from them too.  That is just me though.
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rsopha
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2020, 07:09:06 PM »

The facts are as follows,
1. I paid for 1 rifle over 3 years ago now.  s/n 24, paid deposit, was notified it was ready to ship, paid balance.
I received nothing but excuses.
I purchased a 2nd rifle off of gunbroker s/n 22   Ended up being Charles selling under a screen name. had I know that I never would have purchased it.
rifle arrived with no mag and no muzzle brake and a note that said if I fired with out a muzzle brake my waranty was void, also came with a thread adapter from 7/8 fine thread to 1" course thread.
I purchased a turbine 50bmg muzzle brake
fired s/n approx 40 rds, hang fires, some rounds fired, and fail to eject. mil spec 50 bmg ammo, ball
contacted sga
was told to try commercial ammo as mil spec primers were to hard.
tried 20  more rounds of commercial as directed, still hang fires and fail to eject
contacted sga was told that my warranty was void. - was accused of suppressing the rifle, my suppressors were still in atf jail at the time. was accused of firing with out a muzzle brake, again false. as i purchased my own. was told that one wasn't sufficient and it voided my warranty
sga then demanded I send the rifle back for inspection, even though they were willing to void my warranty with out seeing the rifle, I agreed to ship it back upon receipt of rifle s/n 24 
rifle s/n 24 was never sent.
I had s/n 22 inspected by a certified master gunsmith in baraboo, WI
head space was measured to be out of spec. so far out of spec that it closed on a no go gauge with slop. something I have documentation from Charles stating it should not do. The rifle is supposed to be head spaced with a go gauge and a 7 thousandths shim, should not close on a no go gauge.
I was accused by sga of intentionally causing this... not even remotely possible for an end user to cause a loose breach to this extent.
then we went to court. first judgment was for sga to provide me with s/n 24 and a full refund for s/n 22 at which point it would be returned to him. he appealed and the 2nd judgment I dropped the compensation request for ss/n22 as I have already paid for a new properly head spaced barrel and judgment for s/n 24 was ordered.
there you have the story with zero emotion.

Does it make sense to send a rifle back to some one who has stolen 8600 from you? no.
Does it make sense to send a rifle back to some one who has be belligerent on the phone? no
Does it make sense to send a rifle back to some one who called me today at 4:33 pm cst blaming me for every thing that happened to him? who refuses to take responsibility for stealing my and the others money? who when I told him exactly what I was going to do if he did not ship the rifle I paid for step by step then ended the phone call with f-you? that was just before I typed this.

I gave sga a chance before every step to send the other rifle and for me to walk away. At every single step I gave him that option. today he asked what it would take to end this and I told him send me the money I am owed in the judgment. He then stated that I am responsible for ruining his business, his family, and for him being evicted this sat. Charles and Charles alone is responsible for taking money and not providing what he agreed to. No one else took that money, no one else ran afoul of the atf and lost his ffl. He did the things that resulted in that, did I turn him in? YES I DID. He was warned, and literally sent an email with a step by step list of how I was going to report him to the authorities. Charles made the choices that have lead him to where he is, no one else. As I told him on the phone if the judgment I am owed is not paid I will continue until he is in prison. I have the means and he has provided me with the tools to be able to do so. The gun world is small and people who take advantage of others do not need to be part of it.  I will assist any of the people who have been taken advantage of by this man. We will make sure he is held legally accountable for his actions.

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rsopha
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2020, 07:14:15 PM »

One more thing I want to add. At no time during any of this has charles apologized for stealing from me or any of the others involved. That right there tells you all you need to know about this person.
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Tinglyfeet9
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« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2020, 11:15:15 AM »

Maybe I should start a new thread for this but now that Campbell Arms has taken over production is there a chance the Leader 50 will turn out as a good rifle and not a $5k hunk of junk?

rsopha you seem to have interacted with them, how is that going?
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