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Author Topic: Response and solutions to InRange:  (Read 1415 times)
Zeiram3f
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2019, 11:46:31 AM »

I don't believe he'll read your response from his previous post, but I found it thoroughly engrossing.

AE

Heh. You would be right, however I did address him by pseudonym, so I should at least give him the courtesy of response.

I'll outline my response below:

1. This is the last post I'll make on the matter, at least in this thread as I don't wish to muddy it up with non-relevant material. That said, you're free to trash me like I expect you may, and you won't have to deal with me responding! It's a win for both of us. Like I said in another post between Potss and Kurt - DM each other if you have issues not relevant to the post. So, Potss, please reply publicly if you wish. I can't respond and waste anymore of the community's time... but I'm making an exception for this post (double standard, sorry). If you wish to continue, you may DM me.

2. You read into my statements. I never said "ban-able", but if that's what you wish to see, then by all means, see it.

3. I never asked that we don't discuss negative things. I suggested we have productive discussion about it. The toxic persona you portray on this site, whether it's the real you or not, is non-productive. I have my gripes and praises for DT and justifiably so. I'm one of the lucky few with a functioning rifle, but that required multiple trips back to DT, and I still question whether or not I want to keep the MDR to this day... I'm tooting my own horn here, but at least I can take a balanced approach on my outlook. DT has made some worthless and vile decisions imo. But they've also taken on a financial risk I personally wouldn't. So I'll commend them at least for that.

4. Lastly, reading through how you actually type out your responses, it's clear that you're at least intelligent and well educated. So my guess is that you're online persona is either to play an angry vehement individual or you just have trouble disassociating your frustrations from life to online. I get it if either is the case... However, I would like to ask you... how do you want people to remember you? Do you want people to take you seriously or do you want them to be the annoyed store clerk behind the Walmart return counter, hearing the same gripe day after day? I think you're capable of coming across as a civil member on this group, but potential is only that and I would hope to see it fulfilled some day. See Jordan Peterson, and Ben Shapiro for quality examples.

Regardless, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 01:28:43 PM by Zeiram3f » Logged
BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2019, 08:39:56 PM »

Ah I see, so in your book pointing out and correcting lies, misinformation, deception, apologia, and what amounts to shilling from a manufacturer and its fanboys is "of little to no value" and should be a ban-able offense.

While on the flip side, actually doing the lying, misinforming, deception, apologia, and shilling should be highly encouraged and in fact the mods should provide a safe space for it.

What an odd, upside down world you must live in Zeiram3f.  If you don't want to see negative things about a product, then you should hope for or focus on products that aren't dumpster fires made by manufacturers that aren't trying to make their customers pay for their entire R&D and shipping knowingly defective products to make money.

Everyone on this board wants a kick ass MDR.  But that isn't what we've gotten, and DT has proven themselves not only incapable of delivering such a product, but also incapable of telling the truth.  Do you realize how many chances they've been given?  How many times they've been given the benefit of the doubt?  How many times they've face a simple choice: to spend the money, fix the issues, do the testing, and tell the truth....and then chosen to do the opposite?  I find that overly negative.  I find that of little value.  I find people that defend and aid that behavior both of those things.

If DT does miraculously turn things around as a company and with their product, I'll be the first cheerleader in line (or better yet if they sell the design to competent people).  But we are so far away from that currently I've stopped bothering to write it out EVERY POST like I used to when I made and even slightly negative comment. Videos full of more dubious statements which are likely about as true as their prior videos (which is to say NOT REMOTELY) are evidence of nothing but more of the same.  As I said, until they meet a proper standard of evidence for a reliable rifle (let alone accurate, lightweight, battle ready, etc all the other promises) then this is on THEM.

In other words, this is a you problem.


THIS.

I called this whole situation back in 2017, and people around here practically lynched me for it. I hate to say I told you so... but I told you so. I don't understand why people wish to defend this company.
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whiskey91lima
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2019, 08:53:56 PM »

I mean, I saw this coming in 2014 when they said they'd be releasing the rifle that summer...
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Zeiram3f
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2019, 09:23:15 PM »

Yeah. I’m a fan of their new don’t show don’t tell policy. Just release and announce when it’s done and working.
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Potss
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2019, 09:53:46 PM »

Zeiram3f any reasonable person reading your comment would have come to the exact same conclusions I did.  No one eludes to mods cleaning up a thread and thinks otherwise.  You can try and back away from it all you want, but it is very clear what you were saying.  Perhaps (doubtfully) that wasn't your intention, but then you just need to learn to write more clearly. 

Now you've moved from saying that my posts were of little to no value, to claiming that they are toxic.  Your new claim is as fallacious as your old.  Again, what kind of crazy f***ed up world do you inhabit where lies, misinformation, deception, apologia, and shilling are deemed non-toxic, but calling them out is toxic?  Stating facts and recounting recent events is somehow toxic to you?  And pointing out when fanboys are participating in what basically amounts to fraud is now slander?  Wherever you live, I don't want to move there.

Also, DT isn't risking their capital, they are risking your capital, those of all the buyers and investors.  But even if it were all their own, there is nothing to be respected or commend there.  You risk captial by going to Vegas for a weekend.  Risking capital is almost the least you can do.  Things to respect and commend are hard work, brave leadership, honesty, integrity, and putting others first.  You know, the EXACT OPPOSITE of everything DT has done since day 1 with the MDR, and continues to do to this day.

The rest of your post is Jungian drivel.  Unlike the first part of your post, which was just drivel. I feel that distinction needed to be made.

I'm sure you are not responding because of some ridiculous notion of "cleaning up the thread" instead of....not being able to contend with the truth...I'm sure it is the former and not the latter, just 110% positive.
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reason
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2019, 11:17:48 PM »

Deleted because It has nothing to do with the forum and I was ranting...
Wink
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 03:31:54 AM by reason » Logged
whiskey91lima
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2019, 12:46:39 AM »

Someone got triggered. I thought this was a forum about bullpups, not what school of philosophical thought everyone follows and choose to insult the other.

How about that SRS-A2?

Mods, seems like this thread needs to be locked.
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thehun
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2019, 12:14:17 PM »

SRS-A2 looks great actually...wish it was LH friendly...
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whiskey91lima
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2019, 02:26:57 PM »

SRS-A2 looks great actually...wish it was LH friendly...

I think throse are all great upgrades. The barrel clamping method improvement looks fantastic.
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Er98ah
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2019, 10:14:49 AM »

I think that we need to realize that the echo chamber of the BPF and ARFcom are not the entirety of feedback that DT receives.  Just because it may not have happened or been observed here doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.  There are perhaps a dozen or so people here who have complained (with the rest joining in) about what their MDRs are doing.  Looking back when I managed a call center, we had a lot more direct contact (calls and e-mail) for features and options than we ever saw on our message boards.

Beyond that, I thought it was an informative presentation that explained (finally!) what they intended, what they used to test, and what they are planning to do to rectify the situation.  That said, I'll continue to shoot what I have and add the refits as they are released.

how come you defend 100% of everything DT does? are you on their payroll. I can almost guess what your answer is going to be to everything at this point.
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Heathsrow
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2019, 11:47:07 AM »

I think that we need to realize that the echo chamber of the BPF and ARFcom are not the entirety of feedback that DT receives.  Just because it may not have happened or been observed here doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.  There are perhaps a dozen or so people here who have complained (with the rest joining in) about what their MDRs are doing.  Looking back when I managed a call center, we had a lot more direct contact (calls and e-mail) for features and options than we ever saw on our message boards.

Beyond that, I thought it was an informative presentation that explained (finally!) what they intended, what they used to test, and what they are planning to do to rectify the situation.  That said, I'll continue to shoot what I have and add the refits as they are released.

how come you defend 100% of everything DT does? are you on their payroll. I can almost guess what your answer is going to be to everything at this point.

Er98ah, please read the post from two days ago! No Personal attacks! This forum is for discussions of the MDR both good and bad, not personal attacks.

Thank you
Heathsrow
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spacegunz
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2019, 03:07:30 PM »

Ah I see, so in your book pointing out and correcting lies, misinformation, deception, apologia, and what amounts to shilling from a manufacturer and its fanboys is "of little to no value" and should be a ban-able offense.

While on the flip side, actually doing the lying, misinforming, deception, apologia, and shilling should be highly encouraged and in fact the mods should provide a safe space for it.

What an odd, upside down world you must live in Zeiram3f.  If you don't want to see negative things about a product, then you should hope for or focus on products that aren't dumpster fires made by manufacturers that aren't trying to make their customers pay for their entire R&D and shipping knowingly defective products to make money.

Everyone on this board wants a kick ass MDR.  But that isn't what we've gotten, and DT has proven themselves not only incapable of delivering such a product, but also incapable of telling the truth.  Do you realize how many chances they've been given?  How many times they've been given the benefit of the doubt?  How many times they've face a simple choice: to spend the money, fix the issues, do the testing, and tell the truth....and then chosen to do the opposite?  I find that overly negative.  I find that of little value.  I find people that defend and aid that behavior both of those things.

If DT does miraculously turn things around as a company and with their product, I'll be the first cheerleader in line (or better yet if they sell the design to competent people).  But we are so far away from that currently I've stopped bothering to write it out EVERY POST like I used to when I made and even slightly negative comment. Videos full of more dubious statements which are likely about as true as their prior videos (which is to say NOT REMOTELY) are evidence of nothing but more of the same.  As I said, until they meet a proper standard of evidence for a reliable rifle (let alone accurate, lightweight, battle ready, etc all the other promises) then this is on THEM.

In other words, this is a you problem.


THIS.

I called this whole situation back in 2017, and people around here practically lynched me for it. I hate to say I told you so... but I told you so. I don't understand why people wish to defend this company.

100% this. I fully agree with Potts and you: I’ve had the same experience as you with the toxic “diehard Desert Tech apologists” (as I call them) that hang around these forums like a hungry pack of wolves, attacking anyone who suggests seriously holding DT and their reputation accountable.

I’ve been following the MDR with excitement for some time, but despite my prediction of exactly what is happening now, my “pessimism” was swarmed with relentless attacks (including personal ones) by many people here (I won’t mention their names specifically, for the sake of civility).

I will mention that Potss and a few others have always been rational, friendly, helpful and civil in defending people like us from the DT fanboy attacks. And yet they are stuck taking much of the mob wrath, as a result.

We just want a good rifle — the rifle we were promised. Forgiveness only goes so far, when DT keeps sweeping issues under the rug, and keeps selling a fundamentally broken product at premium prices. Yet, I suspect most of us are willing to forgive DT if they legitimately own up to their mistakes, lies, deception, and “truth bending”, and fix their product.

But we all know how the more someone deceived and doubles down on those deceptions, the deeper they dig themselves into a hole that is progressively more difficult to truly escape. So forgive me if I am skeptical until they actually do redeem themselves. What’s that old saying / poem? “What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive.”

As for how to shape the dialogue around here healthily: Perhaps look to forums where customers discuss a manufacturer who completely botched a product launch, and how those customers come together to demand better treatment from that manufacturer — rather than attacking each other for not being loyal enough to the brand. You’ll generally find this kind of heathy dialogue in generic product discussion forums, not so much forums where the diehard fans and apologists hang out. So, maybe it’s too much for me to expect objectivity around here? I hope not. I certainly hope we can expect civility though.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 03:17:41 PM by spacegunz » Logged
spector762
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2019, 09:15:55 PM »

The torn rims and bad extraction is more of an issue of dwell time than gas setting. Basically, the case is still over expanded and gripping the chamber before it has a chance to cool slightly and shrink. This is a millisecond phenomina that has to be designed for.
ok so what can be done to alow more time for it to cool down can anyone draw the bcg with the cam angle modified  on autocad and ill see if i can get it milled out on the mazak
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 09:20:54 PM by spector762 » Logged
rtp
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« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2019, 10:54:27 PM »

Mixed on DTs response video.
"500 rounds through the rifle before 'tuning'" - just lol.  I've spent hundreds on factory ammo already vs normally reloading, and had failures across multiple ammo types, including IMI Match ammo, PPU Match, etc.  Those '500 rounds' had better be M80 ball....but 500 round 'break-in' is IMO excessive.

Wider extractor as an 'upgrade' - is this implying with a cost associated with it, on top of a $2500 rifle, or as a free warranty replacement, NOT requiring sending them the rifle?

I did like the quote "All M80 surplus will work with the 2019 valve" - we'll see. 

Haven't had many additional rounds through my MDR since my last posts, but overall still in a waiting period of keep or ditch it, personally. 
I'm not convinced that polishing the chamber and ejection case clip in the side panel should be NEEDED to be done by the end user, although I have no issues doing it.  I think I'm just not convinced the gas plus is a real solution here vs a more fundamental issue on the gas system design, length, reciprocating mass, etc.

An overall big 'We'll see what happens next' from me.
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induna
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2019, 12:18:50 AM »

I don't believe he'll read your response from his previous post, but I found it thoroughly engrossing.

AE

Heh. You would be right, however I did address him by pseudonym, so I should at least give him the courtesy of response.

I'll outline my response below:

1. This is the last post I'll make on the matter, at least in this thread as I don't wish to muddy it up with non-relevant material. That said, you're free to trash me like I expect you may, and you won't have to deal with me responding! It's a win for both of us. Like I said in another post between Potss and Kurt - DM each other if you have issues not relevant to the post. So, Potss, please reply publicly if you wish. I can't respond and waste anymore of the community's time... but I'm making an exception for this post (double standard, sorry). If you wish to continue, you may DM me.

2. You read into my statements. I never said "ban-able", but if that's what you wish to see, then by all means, see it.

3. I never asked that we don't discuss negative things. I suggested we have productive discussion about it. The toxic persona you portray on this site, whether it's the real you or not, is non-productive. I have my gripes and praises for DT and justifiably so. I'm one of the lucky few with a functioning rifle, but that required multiple trips back to DT, and I still question whether or not I want to keep the MDR to this day... I'm tooting my own horn here, but at least I can take a balanced approach on my outlook. DT has made some worthless and vile decisions imo. But they've also taken on a financial risk I personally wouldn't. So I'll commend them at least for that.

4. Lastly, reading through how you actually type out your responses, it's clear that you're at least intelligent and well educated. So my guess is that you're online persona is either to play an angry vehement individual or you just have trouble disassociating your frustrations from life to online. I get it if either is the case... However, I would like to ask you... how do you want people to remember you? Do you want people to take you seriously or do you want them to be the annoyed store clerk behind the Walmart return counter, hearing the same gripe day after day? I think you're capable of coming across as a civil member on this group, but potential is only that and I would hope to see it fulfilled some day. See Jordan Peterson, and Ben Shapiro for quality examples.

Regardless, a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

This was the most thorough and polite roasting I've ever seen. And I grew up on the internet. Props, buddy.

Also, I ordered my MDR before both the InRange and Daddy Garand videos came out. They both made me nervous beyond belief, and I almost had a fit when I went through the first mag of my MDR. But I think the issues with the early runs of the rifle have been sorted out- no malfunctions after the first 30 rounds. Even the Kel-Tec RFB had teething issues. It's not a proven platform like the AR-10 or what have you, but it's a .308 bullpup, which is already a string of words that sends most gun manufacturers into fits of laughter.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 12:26:41 AM by induna » Logged
Potss
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2019, 05:34:42 PM »

It was a load of apologia and backpedaling.  The tone is irrelevant.

Anyway, I'm glad you haven't had issues with your MDR....yet.  As I said, get to 5K no issues and we'll start to have some data on how reliable they really are.

The trouble isn't just with the rifles, but with how DT handled the problems from the beginning.  None of them seem at all solved yet either.
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HBeretta
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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2019, 08:33:47 PM »

even worse, in the srs-a2 live stream nick goes on to talk about how they've learned their lesson about past mistakes and how the srs-a2 is ready, "...has been tested every way to sunday."  more or less, basically admitting that the MDR WASN'T ready...yet they are still shipping anyway.  well of course it isn't ready, they're shipping 556 guns without panels right?

it's rather convenient that their focus will be on the new SRS-A2(perfect timing) to divert attention away from the MDR at shotshow2019...of course, a given.  in connecting the dots, when DT announced MDR production in 2016...all the 'boy who cried wolf' promises along the way, the glass door reviews speaking to unpaid vendors then to top it all off...nick stating in the first MDR owner youtube vid how if they would've taken that multimillion dollar SRS contract...the MDR would have been done a lot sooner...kidding or not...if the slate were clean...

all this aside though, the new gas plug solution doesn't instill confidence at all.  with all the other issues people are reporting.  personally, i feel for those who spent their hard earned money on a s***ty product, yet i'm glad that an arrogant CEO who talked s*** on public forums about other companies only to serve up an overpriced s*** sandwich for a rifle...got what was deserved.

now it's time to own up and take care of those people who own your product instead of fleeing from forums that committed to group buys for your product....and instead of throwing up lame powerpoint presentations basically stating you're going to overgas the rifle...admit you failed miserably and that your intent is to right this debacle.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 08:53:21 PM by HBeretta » Logged
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