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Author Topic: Tavors in a Sea of M4/AR15 Rifles  (Read 793 times)
MaverickNH
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« on: November 19, 2018, 06:36:48 PM »

I took my Tavor X95 300BO to a course at SIG Academy - it was Tactical Medicine with pistol/rifle work and TCCC intermingled. I was the only one *not* using a M4/AR15 variant. But I did as well or better than anyone, especially on 1-arm drills where one arm is shot, you fight with the other after applying a tourniquet.

It was *so* much easier to run a X95 1-handed. Those PORFs were suffering and I hardly noticed.

They were digging holes with their muzzles - not me.

I’ll be at SIG’s Defensive Rifle and subsequent classes in the next months (30min from home) and expect to be the only non-M4/AR15 again.

What are your experiences amongst the unwashed M4/AR15 masses?


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boscoman
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2018, 08:53:05 PM »

I have been attending Sig & what was Black Water since 2006. Before my Tavors (SAR & X95) I would shoot Galils, usually in 7.62. I heard more than once, "so you're that guy". Most instructors have been pretty good over the years but there is always that ass that can't handle a non AR15 shooter for some reason.

 My last class at Sig, there were 2 of us shooting Tavors. That has been the only time I wasn't the only, "that guy".

 At one class an instructor looked at me & stated that he couldn't understand why the Israelis had even made the rifle since it was nothing more than a modified M16. I just walked away smiling while thinking to myself, "you know less than zero about this rifle".

My last class at Academi (BW) before they stopped training civilians, I had two instructors that were awesome. They spent more time with me looking for ways to shoot the rifle faster than with any other student. It was probably the best class I have been to bar none.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRLxTZVcUbw

« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 07:12:11 AM by boscoman » Logged

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cciman
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2018, 10:34:41 PM »

I attended Gunsite last fall, and I was the only one without an AR4 based carbine in a crowd of about 18.  Luckily, it was not my first gun fighting training rodeo.

There are downsides:
-Instructors are not familiar with the platform or manual of arms,and your training could lack because of their knowledge deficit (ie how to clear or manipulate during malfunctions, failure drills).  They also can't recognize or point out gear arrangements that don't work, nor give "seasoned" advice on what gear or mountings work better than others on your specific rifle.  They can only teach what they are familiar with.

-Instructors can be a pompass bunch and make your time miserable.  If it is your first carbine course, learning from ground zero may not be as conducive.  You are not going to change anyone's religion with the Tavors, there are plenty of Daniel Defence and LWRC's-- human nature is what it is. Roll Eyes

-The X95 would not fit into their rest racks designed for standard length weapons for safe stowage during downtime, and they wanted it on the rack for "safety".

-the blow hole is closer to the shooters face for either support side shooting, or close to the ground (lateral, prone positions) where the AZ dust kick up can get into your nose or glasses

-No spare parts or expertise to help out.  If something breaks or works differently than expected- their advice may be incorrect or cause harm.


If you are starting from ground zero, and you want to really learn how to run the IWI's the right way from people who know them, I highly recommend IWI's own training classes.  Bar none, the best classes for the Sar/X95.  Besides, you will be in a class with all the others using the same platform.  Better learning because you can observe how the instructor does it, and model; you can learn from others mistakes or successes,  it gives you a point of reference of your performance as the class proceeds, and the instructor is able to assess that also, rather than just blaming the gun.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 11:04:26 PM by cciman » Logged
MaverickNH
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 10:21:24 AM »

Thank y’all, I appreciate the information and advice. I’m definite on the IWI Academy Tavor classes to learn rifle-specific operation. SIG, being very close, is fine for tactics. They have great simunitions force-on-force training too.

IWI shop has 20%-off in their store 26Nov so I’ll buy the spare parts & springs kits. No reason I shouldn’t just buy a spare X95 instead of swapping 556/300BO, eh?

That said, switch to AR15 as backup is a good drill too.
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cciman
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2018, 08:01:33 PM »

Thank y’all, I appreciate the information and advice. I’m definite on the IWI Academy Tavor classes to learn rifle-specific operation. SIG, being very close, is fine for tactics. They have great simunitions force-on-force training too.

IWI shop has 20%-off in their store 26Nov so I’ll buy the spare parts & springs kits. No reason I shouldn’t just buy a spare X95 instead of swapping 556/300BO, eh?

That said, switch to AR15 as backup is a good drill too.



The only purpose for 300BO caliber in my mind is to achieve a AR/SBR close to a BULLPUP556 length effectiveness.   I don't see a practical nor economic reason to own 300BO a bullpup.  Use the money to buy the Galil Ace SBR in 7.62x39 which is another IWI kick ass product.

Like bringing nunchuku to a staff fighting class.   AR classes are universal and easy to access (many can teach it very well).  Tavor or AK classes are not.  Because you learned the AR techiniques, does not  translate to the Tavor or AK.  There are some specifics to the art of the Tavor and AK.


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Rastoff
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2018, 01:14:11 AM »

I too was at a class where I was the only one with a non AR-15. Fortunately for me, the instructors weren't snobs. It was an advanced class and we were required to do some one hand malfunction drills. Of course it was a learning experience for all. They were very helpful and I was able to do all the drills without too much trouble. Let me tell you, clearing a type III malfunction, using only one hand, with a Tavor isn't easy, but it can be done.

Yes, an instructor can only teach what they are familiar with, but in any class like this they aren't teaching the particular gun, they're teaching techniques. In the class I went to, they taught us concepts on using any gun in a particular situation. To a large extent, it was up to me to figure out how to use the tool I brought to accomplish the goals they set.

Parts? Seriously? Yes, any gun can malfunction, but I have yet to have an issue or even hear of an issue that wasn't caused by the shooter. Use the X95 as intended and you won't need any parts.

Yeah, bullpups don't fit any standard rack. I grabbed an ammo can to lift mine up a little so it would fit in the rack. Adapt, Improvise, Overcome.

Yes, having the ejection port closer to your face is an issue. Not one that can't be dealt with. Yeah, lying on your side with the dirt being kicked up right into your face wasn't ideal, but all learning is good learning. It is yet another reason to have a Shemagh with me.
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Aussie E
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2018, 11:08:26 AM »

The only purpose for 300BO caliber in my mind is to achieve a AR/SBR close to a BULLPUP556 length effectiveness.

Only reason to own 300BO is to suppress it and the Tavors are not great platforms to use with suppressors. And I'd your suppressing a rifle you want sub-sonic rounds for maximum sound reductions which lends itself to have a shorter barrel not a 16".

AE
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whitetail
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2018, 08:12:50 PM »

The only purpose for 300BO caliber in my mind is to achieve a AR/SBR close to a BULLPUP556 length effectiveness.

Only reason to own 300BO is to suppress it and the Tavors are not great platforms to use with suppressors. And I'd your suppressing a rifle you want sub-sonic rounds for maximum sound reductions which lends itself to have a shorter barrel not a 16".

AE

Have you shot a tavor suppressed that has the correct 13” long barrel? These guns come overgassed because of 16” barrels and i have a feeling as more people SBR them and get the factory SBRs the amount of gas to the face should be reduced as you’re using the correct length barrel.
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MaverickNH
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2018, 08:15:25 PM »

My X95 in 300BO seems to run well with my Omega 300 suppressor and subsonic ammo. A shot doesn’t activate my electronic muffs and the sound of the action cycling is surprising - something I never otherwise hear. With no ear pro I find sound levels fine. That said, if I wasn’t reloading 300BO I’d think it crazy to shoot the stuff.


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TNC
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2018, 09:00:08 PM »

Being the lone ranger at a class or course with a bullup is unusual but can be a lot of fun.  I still have a retired license from my department and use their range facilities frequently.  I noticed an announcement of a 2-day SWAT class for our officers and area departments.  Had to supply my own ammo, but I signed up.

Two outside, well known, area instructors taught the class.  I cleared it with them to OK my use of my Tavor.  Since everyone else was active duty they had to use their departmental rifles...all AR15's, of course.  The lead instructor was very interested in seeing how my Tavor would perform, especially in the hands of a non-SWAT guy.  The class time was 1/4 pistol and 3/4 rifle.

I didn't embarrass myself, and nothing about the Tavor inhibited my performance during the class.  I had a blast and felt the rifle gave me an edge in some obstacle, building, and close quarters scenarios.  The lead instructor even asked to try out the Tavor during a break, and he was clearly impressed with the handling, function, and reloading process.  He was also very observant about pointing out the charging handle location and being careful not to knock the gun out of battery.  I never did bump it out of battery, but later I did obtain a Gearhead Works folding handle.  The X95's CH is further down the side of the weapon.  He was also impressed by the trigger, as it had been replaced with a Shooting Sight unit.

I don't think anyone going to a school, class, or training needs to fear using a Tavor/X95.  I don't think the rifle will limit or weaken any performance parameters a shooter would encounter.  In our class we even did some long distance shooting at IPSC targets at 300 yards.  This was to mimic a worst case scenario where first arriving officers had to use their carbines to "get the attention of" or at least make an active shooter keep his head down more until SWAT or more units arrived.  Every rifle had a red dot, and mine had an Eotech.  The 1 MOA center dot with the outer circle gave me a good sight picture at 300 yards, and I hit the target equally with the best in the class.

I am an AR15 and AR10 guy too.  I love those rifles...and even a pair of AR pistols...but I'd never hesitate to grab the Tavor for any tactical or defense situation.
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phantoms
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 01:28:13 PM »

He was also very observant about pointing out the charging handle location and being careful not to knock the gun out of battery.  I never did bump it out of battery, but later I did obtain a Gearhead Works folding handle.  The X95's CH is further down the side of the weapon. 

Has Gearhead come out with a folding charging handle for the X95?
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