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Author Topic: AUG designs - Pros and Cons - Help me decide  (Read 603 times)
Andygold
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« on: November 04, 2018, 01:01:22 PM »

Newbie here to the AUG.  Lots of experience with the PS90 and Bushmaster Arm Pistol.

I don't currently have an AUG, but Christmas is almost here, and I think one may be in my future. 

Pretty long post here, but I could really use some guidance and suggestions before making my purchase.

If I'm going to get one, it's pretty much got to be a "one and done" scenario.  Not much extra funds available to swap out too many things like barrels or stocks later.

I'm looking to use it as an all-purpose .223/5.56 rifle... 99% range fun, but if necessary a good zombie gun.  I've always lusted after an A1, so the STG77 has me quite interested, but it's quite different than an A3 M1, and those differences give me lots of questions.  The current norm is 16" barreled, non check-nut tulip flash hiders, rear bolt release models, NATO and Non-NATO stocks, extra rails, etc...   So with all the differences between these two models I'm trying to make an educated choice between the two.  I do however realize that looks are secondary to performance and needs.  With that said, I'm hoping that some members here with actual experience between differing gun generations can give me the pros and cons of of the various features in regards to which is the better setup for an all purpose AUG.  I don't want to second guess myself later, and say, "I should have gotten this instead".

Some questions are...

1)  Does the 20" barrel have benefits over the 16" version?  Do the benefits justify the extra 4" of length? I've read about issues in the Middle East regarding 16" barrels and terminal ballistics.  I'd most likely be using 55 grain surplus ball.

2)  What about the older style check-nut FH compared to the A3 M1 style.  I love the looks of the original but is the newer style better?

3)  I'm thinking about it being less expensive in the long run to get a model with built-in scope and pick up a replacement rail later, as opposed to getting a railed M1 now and then buying an OEM scope later (if I opt to purchase the M1 over the STG).  If I go for either STG77 or A3 M1 with scope, what is the general consensus as to 1.5x vs. 3.0?

If I do pick up a rail later, I have an ACOG TA11 3.5x35 on an AR15 that I can switch over to the AUG.  Which rail would give me the proper height for the ACOG.  Looks-wise I prefer either the high rail or the long rail, but I don't know which would give the proper cheek weld for this particular optic. Right now, on the AR, it sits a bit too low for me with the current mount (don't remember which one I have). So, something that gives me a higher rail than what comes on a flat-top AR would be needed.

4) I'm pretty much set on using OEM AUG magazines, So I can go for either the Standard M1 or the STG.  Is the rear bolt release a wanted/necessary/mandatory feature for most of you?  I realize you have no option with the earlier guns, or the NATO models.  But if you had the option to have it on your NATO/STG77 stock, would you have opted for it?  I know it's not a necessity, but is it something preferred if available?  I'm asking this question because if the feature is that worthwhile, I'd lean towards the M1 over the STG.

5)  Are there any decent rail options (other than the CQC rails) for an STG to be able to use a flashlight? 

6) any other considerations?

Basically it comes down to this...
If you had to choose one current model, and you could only have ONE  AUG, how would you want it set up to fill most roles? Again, for a "one and done" situation what are the pros and cons for either model?

Thanks in advance!!!

Andy

 
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bravo619
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2018, 04:09:53 PM »

You should just buy my preban and be done with the rest 👍🏻


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THX1138
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2018, 09:12:18 PM »

1. Longer barrel just gives more velocity.

2. Cosmetic difference only. Old style check nut requires special wrench that only Steyr has. New style is more basic and standard wrench can be used. Things to consider if you ever intended to remove.

3. Its really personal preference on whether you want more magnification or not. I personally like the 1.5x and have not tried the 3x yet. FYI 3x is only available in the M1 style scope.

4. Bolt release is nice to have. Its one of the key upgrades that came about with the AUG A3.

5. Not really since the STG receiver omits the side rail. M1 is designed to accept lights and gadgets. M1 has side rail on receiver and on the side of the scope.

6. Honestly if you want to potentially run a flash light and/or have a top rail for other modern optics you should get an M1. The STG is more targeted to the collector/purist who doesn't intend to modify it with lights and rails. The STG doesn't have any rails, and while you could technically replace the scope with one, its just defeats the intent of an anniversary collector AUG that is designed to be a classic 1970's A1. The M1 would be the better option for you based on what I've read.
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tsh77769
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 05:33:45 AM »

Andy,

Check out this thread on another forum for a person with similar questions...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?204827-*UPDATE-w-Pic*-Considering-the-Steyr-AUG-have-a-few-questions/page2

As to your specific questions...

1)  Does the 20" barrel have benefits over the 16" version?  Do the benefits justify the extra 4" of length? I've read about issues in the Middle East regarding 16" barrels and terminal ballistics.  I'd most likely be using 55 grain surplus ball.

     The 20" barrel does have benefits. 20" = optimum barrel length for velocity from the
     5.56. More velocity = greater fragmentation (terminal ballistics) effective range, flatter
     trajectory, but not more mechanical accuracy (more practical accuracy, sure, but not
     more mechanical accuracy). MORE IMPORTANTLY, it is much easier to cut a 20" barrel down
     than to grow a 16". Also18" has been found to be a sweet spot for barrel
     harmonics/accuracy on an AUG. If you do cut it down you can also have it re-threaded to
     1/2x28. It is less expensive to have a 20" professionally cut down and re-threaded (try
     ADCO) than to buy a separate 16" barrel.

2)  What about the older style check-nut FH compared to the A3 M1 style.  I love the looks of the original but is the newer style better?

      This is not important to me so I never thought about it.

3)  I'm thinking about it being less expensive in the long run to get a model with built-in scope and pick up a replacement rail later, as opposed to getting a railed M1 now and then buying an OEM scope later (if I opt to purchase the M1 over the STG).  If I go for either STG77 or A3 M1 with scope, what is the general consensus as to 1.5x vs. 3.0?

      WHOA!! STOP!! If you are talking a permanent built in unchangeable scope that would only
      be possible with a pre-ban and would be the absolute worst possible option. If you mean
      something that has appearance similar to the original than your best option would be to get
      an A3 M1 and buy the STG 77 style scope or one of the factory 1.5 or 3 power scopes. Do
      not buy the STG77 special edition, you would be paying a lot more money for less
      functionality and versatility. Personally I prefer the A3 SA (previous receiver version before
      the current M1) as it offer many more rail options (the sling swivel point on the M1 being a
      major limiting factor). If you are not completely hung up on the factory scopes consider
      finding a deal on a used A3 SA. Everything except the receiver rail is the same so there is
      no parts or support issues at all.

4) I'm pretty much set on using OEM AUG magazines, So I can go for either the Standard M1 or the STG.  Is the rear bolt release a wanted/necessary/mandatory feature for most of you?  I realize you have no option with the earlier guns, or the NATO models.  But if you had the option to have it on your NATO/STG77 stock, would you have opted for it?  I know it's not a necessity, but is it something preferred if available?  I'm asking this question because if the feature is that worthwhile, I'd lean towards the M1 over the STG

     If you are going to get an M1 I would strongly urge you to consider getting the NATO
     version out of the gate. It is much easier and less expensive for the stock and trigger pack
     to switch from NATO to original than it is from original to NATO and I have heard, more than
     once, that there might be fitment issues in trying to put a NATO stock on an M1 that didn't
     come with it from the factory. Again, don't do the STG77, you would be paying more and
     getting less.

     When or if you do go with the original style mags, I would strongly urge you to consider
     going with the Magpul AUG mags for your 30rd mags. They are less expensive, are the
     current Australian military issue (designed and developed specifically for that military
     contract), fit pouches easier and have easier extraction. I do however LOVE the 42rd mags
     for the extra capacity and you can still go prone with them. SEE THE PREVIOUSLY
    PROVIDED LINK for more discussion on mags.

5)  Are there any decent rail options (other than the CQC rails) for an STG to be able to use a flashlight?

     Yes, several. There is the angled side rail or the MI MLOK replacement for it, there are light
     mounts that can be sued from the receiver rail, there's the puplight, claw gear, Corvus
     Defensio, Midwest Industries, and others.

6) any other considerations?

     Yes, see the previously provided link.

7) If you had to choose one current model, and you could only have ONE  AUG, how would you want it set up to fill most roles? Again, for a "one and done" situation what are the pros and cons for either model?

     Well, if it is really a one time onyl all in thing (it never is, btw) and we are going ball tot he
     walls...

    I'd get a used A3 SA and NATO stock or an M1 with NATO stock (you can always get a
    regular stock later), a 20" barrel cut down to
    18" and re-threaded 1/2x28, put a Corvus Defensio rail
    on it (for the extra rail space, ACOG specific mounting options, and sling mount), a 20/20
    precision sear and/or neu-trigger (at least till the Corvus Defensio trigger comes out if
    ever), a corvus defensio brass deflector so I could shoot from either shoulder if needed (they
    just introduced one for the NATO stock), light and mount, a bayonet lug (they still have
    value) and one of the factory recommended spares kit. That's it. Other than optics, and a
   sling, that covers pretty much everything  and will last your lifetime and beyond.

TSH77769
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LazyEngineer
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 12:18:15 PM »

There will be lots of opinions and reasons for them.  Here's my own.

1) 16" vs 20";   20" means more velocity, which means it hits harder and goes further.  I personally like that the muzzle is a touch further away, as well - being a bullpup this b******* is loud enough already as it is.  Being a Bullpup, those extra 4" aren't that expensive.  Personally, I went with the 18", which I think looks better than either - but that's just preference.  My biggest annoyance with Steyr is if I'm choosing a 20", that means I want to hit stuff harder further out; which means heavy bullets.  Yet the 20" are only available in 1/9, while the shorter 16" can be had in 1/7 (if you spec that).  Just odd. 

2) Don't care and it doesn't matter.  For what it's worth, most military's moved away from open-end flash hiders because vegetation would get snagged in it, so most are closed on the end now (i.e. A2 flash hider vs 3-prong A1 flash hider).  I suppose harmonics are more consistent with the modern closed-end flash hiders as well.

3) There are lots of bullpups out there now.  The AUG always stood out because of the integrated scope, which also gave it many cool points.  The odd thing with Steyr STG spec is that it still is a heavier and bulkier M1 receiver style and scope attachement; with a 20" Barrel, but a 1.5X scope.  Again, if I'm going with 20", it's because I want to shoot further, and a 3X optic to me is more general and includes ability to shoot further much better, than a 1.5X.  When I was shooting 3-gun open field this weekend, had I taken a 1.5X AUG for some of those 400 yard targets, I would have been struggling much more than I did with a higher fixed power scope.  Not only in aiming, just just in seeing and finding the targets.  1.5X is for 16" 50 yard point shooting or bullseye paper target shooting a bit further.  For open-field shooting at any real distance where you have to hunt for your target in the weeds, I'll take 3X please.

4) AUG OEM mags are fine; and not that expensive.  Also part of the iconic look, which is at least some factor in getting an AUG.  I have zero interest in a NATO mag stock version, which has less features anyway.  That, and 42 round factory mags baby!

5) Donno - I'm running an A3M1.  I'd have been more serious about the STG77 if it actually was kept like the original.  But they didn't, it's just an M1 with a special run of original style scope housing shapes, but with the oversized M1 mounting system (which means heavier and bulkier).  That, and 1.5X with a 20" 1/9 BBL just isn't the spec for me.

6) I wouldn't fret the bolt-release button either way.  You can run it about as fast either way, an in anything practical; if you have to reload after 30 (or 42) rounds of semi-auto fire; I'm pretty sure the coyote got away.  In 3-gun style shooting, it's almost as fast and most people reload while on the move, so it doesn't really matter if it takes an extra 1/4th second to get the gun back in battery, during your 2 second inner-stage run anyway.
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lockon
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 07:18:37 PM »

1. Just like everyone said about advantages of the 20. I prefer compactness and going to 400yards is quite doable with the 16. I have even gone as far as 615 yards with my 16 inchers.

2. I only have experience with the new tulip. IMHO itís great.

3. If you plan on eventually using your ACOG just go to a long rail model. The 3x is nice and clear but eye relief could be a little better as well as the eye box.   have a mud M-1 with the 3x itís great but my go to is my A3 with a TR24G. The A3 has a longer rail than all the current M-1 offerings. Back up or lights are easier to place.

4.OEM mags are great and are on sale at 44Mag. The Magpul AUG mags are really good too and lock up solidly in the AUG. No wiggle at all. Sub $20 too.

5. Go long rail if you can and plan on mounting your ACOG. An A3 will give the most rail space if you find a good used one.

6. I got my M1 with the 3x for the look. The STG 77 wasnít out yet.  I love the look of the STG77 and would Love to add that one too.  That said my old A3 is my go to. The TR24G on it covers all my optical needs. No batteries and daylight and night time illumination. True 1x and magnification to 4x, the longer rail lets me mount a TLR-1HL or Olight PL 2 in front on the optic. I use a tape switch for the TLR-1HL. I might eventually get a TR-25 1-6 but itís not imperative. Itís very compact-and it is registered as a pistol here in MI. So I can have it with me in most places with my CPL. I got that one way back before they changed the laws in 2013.

My A3 would be my one and done I guess. But you can see I had to get the M1 with the 3x-and eventually I will scoop up a STG-77.  Hard to just have 1.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 07:20:56 PM by lockon » Logged
scstrain
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 07:49:23 PM »

Of current production I would get a AUG A3 M1, with no optic and then add this rail to it. https://www.steyr-arms.com/us/accessories/extended-rail.html

I have owned a Pre Ban Aug A1, 902 series, a USR that had a A2 receiver, and now a Sabre built A3.  It is my favorite. If you can find a Sabre or a early Vltor A3 that is what I would do.  If not, what I mentioned in my first sentences is as close as you can get.

While the the integral optics are cool looking on the older models..........they are really out dated. They also add weight to the newer models with them.  And, only the pre bans have Swarovski glass in them.

That's my opinion, but it's your decision, that is why there are so many flavors of ice cream.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 07:52:03 PM by scstrain » Logged
Andygold
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 12:43:47 PM »

OP here.

Thank you all for the info.  Much appreciated!  I've eliminated the STG-77 from my choices.  I've been seriously trying to do my homework on all things AUG!!!

Some other questions now arise....  Some mention to try to find an A3 SA instead of the newer A3 M1.

1) I have seen some SA's NIB, but they cost the same as a similar M1.  So, if they both happen to be the same price, why go for one over the other?  I'd prefer to buy new as opposed to used!!!  If I can't pick it up and look at it, or test fire it before buying it, I'd prefer to buy new.

2) It appears from looking at specs that the SA might be a little lighter than the M1 (lighter weight rail?), but I'm not 100% sure of that. 
Other than that, what are the differences between the two?

3) I have seen some SA models sold with a tulip FH and others with a muzzlebrake/compensator affixed, and I'm not sure which is the normal stock variety (or possibly both are normal)...

4) Are rails interchangeable between SA and M1? 

5) If going SA, and both Sabre and Vltor were available for similar pricing, is one preferred, and why?

6) From looking at pictures, it appears that the SA rail and M1 extended rail are about the same length, and maybe the SA rail is a bit taller.  Am I correct?

7) Sling mount positions on both guns.  One better than the other?

6) Anything else?

And yes, I like to number things.  I'm anal that way!!!  Smiley  I think it makes it easier for others to reply to specific questions and not lump everything together  Smiley

Thanks again...I've learned a huge amount due to all of your answers!!!!!!
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 03:44:36 PM »

Weight difference are pretty negligible. The side rail is interchangeable the top rails are not. The comp muzzle device was available with the earliest models, some people prefer them and over the tulip. I never tried one but then again I am happy with the tulip. My A3 is a Sabre with a AUG related special serial number. I think it has the FN barrel and came with the tulip. VLTOR receivers are every bit as good. Both are no longer available but I donít think one is more desireanle than the other.

There were a few heights of top rail available for the original A3. Malente or PJ likely has exact specs.

Longer rail gives you more options. I have a Magpul loop at the last spot on my A3ís rail. I use a MS3 single point in conjunction with that. I do have the urban ERT sling on my M1. The M1 has the integrated 3x so this was IMHO the best option for a single point sling. I am happy with that as well.
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THX1138
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 10:04:23 PM »

1. I would recommend the M1 over the SA. The SA is less versatile because you are limited to a top rail only. There may be a couple aftermarket rail options still available for the SA, but the standard rail that comes on it doesn't need to be replaced. With the M1 you have several factory rail options, and integrated scope options too. I would only tell you to get an SA if you're certain you'll never want one of the integrated scopes.

2. The receiver is the only difference between the two.

3. The muzzle brake you see on the early SA's is the original military A3 muzzle brake. The Austrian military uses that one, and its my personal favorite as well. Looks better, and is very effective. The tulip FH was brought back around late 2012 for the US market. I guess for its classic look.

4. No

5. No, but the Vltor receivers have nicer markings if that matters.

6. SA rail was either 23 or 25 slots (there were 2 OEM rails). M1 extended rail is 25 slots. Height is same.

7. About the same
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Andygold
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 04:00:05 PM »

One more...

Steyr says that their 16" 1:9 barrel will stabilize all bullet weights...

With that said, If I'm going to be almost exclusively shooting 55gr. with a little bit of 62gr. out of a 16" barrel, would I be better off specifying a 1:7 twist instead of the standard 1:9 twist?  It seems I can get either from the start.
 I read some say that most lighter weight bullets prefer the 1:9, while others say that if given the choice, they'd rather have a 1:7 to cover all bases.  I guess if 1:8 was offered, I'd split the difference. Smiley
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THX1138
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 04:30:04 PM »

One more...

Steyr says that their 16" 1:9 barrel will stabilize all bullet weights...

With that said, If I'm going to be almost exclusively shooting 55gr. with a little bit of 62gr. out of a 16" barrel, would I be better off specifying a 1:7 twist instead of the standard 1:9 twist?  It seems I can get either from the start.
 I read some say that most lighter weight bullets prefer the 1:9, while others say that if given the choice, they'd rather have a 1:7 to cover all bases.  I guess if 1:8 was offered, I'd split the difference. Smiley

1/9 is perfectly fine with 55gr and 62gr.
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lockon
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 08:02:24 PM »

Both of mine are 1:9 and both seem to get better groups with 62 grain bullets. Factory federal loads mind you xm855 vs xm193, nothing special or hand loads.
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housertl
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2018, 10:58:48 PM »

Mine is also 1:9, and does absolutely phenomenally with IMI 69gr Razor Core.
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LazyEngineer
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 12:41:59 PM »

One more...

Steyr says that their 16" 1:9 barrel will stabilize all bullet weights...

With that said, If I'm going to be almost exclusively shooting 55gr. with a little bit of 62gr. out of a 16" barrel, would I be better off specifying a 1:7 twist instead of the standard 1:9 twist?  It seems I can get either from the start.
 I read some say that most lighter weight bullets prefer the 1:9, while others say that if given the choice, they'd rather have a 1:7 to cover all bases.  I guess if 1:8 was offered, I'd split the difference. Smiley

Yea.. no.   At >500 yards, my 1/9 twist lost it on 75 gr bullets.  For 69 gr or less, it's fine.  For 75 gr at 200 yards, it's TIGHT.  but at 500+ yards, it just lost it.
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Andygold
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2018, 03:23:15 PM »

One more...

Steyr says that their 16" 1:9 barrel will stabilize all bullet weights...

With that said, If I'm going to be almost exclusively shooting 55gr. with a little bit of 62gr. out of a 16" barrel, would I be better off specifying a 1:7 twist instead of the standard 1:9 twist?  It seems I can get either from the start.
 I read some say that most lighter weight bullets prefer the 1:9, while others say that if given the choice, they'd rather have a 1:7 to cover all bases.  I guess if 1:8 was offered, I'd split the difference. Smiley

Yea.. no.   At >500 yards, my 1/9 twist lost it on 75 gr bullets.  For 69 gr or less, it's fine.  For 75 gr at 200 yards, it's TIGHT.  but at 500+ yards, it just lost it.

I can't imagine ever shooting beyond 100 yards.  My eyesight is just not that good anymore.  Even 100 yards is a stretch!  What optic are you using for that distance, and is it your every day optic?
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housertl
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2018, 05:22:46 PM »

I recently took my AUG all the way out to 1000 with a 1-8 Primary Arms. The weather was perfect, and the voodoo of cartridge, barrel, shooter, and SPOTTER was glorious. I had a roughly one MOA group of ten shots, followed by a hit on a clay pigeon. I might never be able to do it again, but it all came together that day. Really inspires confidence in the machine of the AUG.
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LazyEngineer
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2018, 12:49:30 AM »

One more...

Steyr says that their 16" 1:9 barrel will stabilize all bullet weights...

With that said, If I'm going to be almost exclusively shooting 55gr. with a little bit of 62gr. out of a 16" barrel, would I be better off specifying a 1:7 twist instead of the standard 1:9 twist?  It seems I can get either from the start.
 I read some say that most lighter weight bullets prefer the 1:9, while others say that if given the choice, they'd rather have a 1:7 to cover all bases.  I guess if 1:8 was offered, I'd split the difference. Smiley

Yea.. no.   At >500 yards, my 1/9 twist lost it on 75 gr bullets.  For 69 gr or less, it's fine.  For 75 gr at 200 yards, it's TIGHT.  but at 500+ yards, it just lost it.

I can't imagine ever shooting beyond 100 yards.  My eyesight is just not that good anymore.  Even 100 yards is a stretch!  What optic are you using for that distance, and is it your every day optic?

NRA high power match.  We usually use iron sights, it's not as hard as it sounds - bullseye targets, 3'x3', if not bigger.  The X ring is only 1-2 MOA , but the aiming black is much bigger and easily well aimed at, even with irons.  I just use the factory 3x.  You don't need 16x to shoot at distance, 3x will do it, try it.  Not bragging, you can do it - try it.
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2018, 12:59:51 AM »

I use my 20" A3M1 with skinny 1.5x in the local high power matches.  I don't have the best eyes, but those targets are pretty easy to see even at 200-300 yards.  The AUG is actually a lot of fun to use in those matches, and generates a lot of interest.
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HBeretta
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2018, 05:28:46 AM »

Of current production I would get a AUG A3 M1, with no optic and then add this rail to it. https://www.steyr-arms.com/us/accessories/extended-rail.html

buh buh buh...bingoooo!!!

or...just buy with rail....

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/791086611
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