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Author Topic: DUDE! Panzer Arms - bullpup semi-auto shotgun. Kinda want!  (Read 2783 times)
reason
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2018, 12:28:11 AM »

How is the trigger?
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2018, 09:18:17 PM »

How is the trigger?

Heavy.

One thing I have learned is that the Pro-Mag 10 round mags that are for the MKA-1919 (the mag pattern that the PA Bullpup uses) don't fit.  The polymer extends too far up the body to allow the magazine to fully seat properly.  So...I have two that are sitting in the packages waiting for me to either sell them or buy something they fit.
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Kurt
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2018, 06:06:54 PM »

922R has to do with imported semi auto rifles and shotguns.  For them to be compliant they have to have a certain number of American made parts. If you do a Google search you can find out all about 922R and the "Parts Lists". This is the reason all these imports are shipped into the U.S.A. with 5 round magazines.

When Saiga shotguns were being imported a whole Industry was created of companies making replacement parts from the list here in America to make them compliant. When compliant, high capacity magazines could be used along with AR type grips etc.



I am well acquainted with 922r, having been buying firearms since before it was enacted. Your explanation did not answer the question I asked; what makes these specific shotguns non-compliant?  ATF seems to think they are given that they've been cleared for sale along with numerous other imported magazine fed shotguns.

Here is some great info from a company that sells compliance parts:
http://www.tapco.com/section922r/
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 06:12:03 PM by scstrain » Logged
kfeltenberger
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2018, 12:01:00 AM »

922R has to do with imported semi auto rifles and shotguns.  For them to be compliant they have to have a certain number of American made parts. If you do a Google search you can find out all about 922R and the "Parts Lists". This is the reason all these imports are shipped into the U.S.A. with 5 round magazines.

When Saiga shotguns were being imported a whole Industry was created of companies making replacement parts from the list here in America to make them compliant. When compliant, high capacity magazines could be used along with AR type grips etc.



I am well acquainted with 922r, having been buying firearms since before it was enacted. Your explanation did not answer the question I asked; what makes these specific shotguns non-compliant?  ATF seems to think they are given that they've been cleared for sale along with numerous other imported magazine fed shotguns.

Here is some great info from a company that sells compliance parts:
http://www.tapco.com/section922r/

Again, what specifically makes the Panzer Arms Bullpup Shotgun in violation of 922r?  And if it was in violation, why did ATF allow it into the country and then allow it to be sold?  I really want to see your specifics on *this* firearm, not generic other guns, but *this* one.
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Kurt
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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2018, 08:45:55 AM »

Sadly, 922R affects all imported rifles and shotguns. There is information all over the internet you can read about 922R or at the ATF website.

You could call the importer of the shotgun in question and ask if they have added the U.S. parts already to make them compliant.  That would be great if they have.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 09:34:39 AM by scstrain » Logged
kfeltenberger
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2018, 11:43:37 AM »

Sadly, 922R affects all imported rifles and shotguns. There is information all over the internet you can read about 922R or at the ATF website.

You could call the importer of the shotgun in question and ask if they have added the U.S. parts already to make them compliant.  That would be great if they have.

Again, I know all about 922r and how it applies.  What you continue to do is ignore, dodge, and deflect the question I put to you:  How do you *KNOW* that it is not 922r compliant as you originally claimed.  I'm not interested in researching your question when the product has been approved for import and sale as-is by ATF.  You made the claim, you need to back it up with something substantial.
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Kurt
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2018, 01:11:34 PM »

Hello Kurt.  I have tried to call Panzer Arms twice today and am having a hard time getting through to ask.  Maybe you could try too and we can get to the bottom of this. There is nothing that would make me happier then if they have added compliance parts made in the USA to this awesome Bullpup so it is compliant. Like IWI does with their weapons. I want one of these too!

And, I have not tried to dodge or deflect anything.



UPDATE:

After several hours of researching this I finally found out that the importer is PW ARMS. Located in Redmond Washington. 425-882-1161.  I was told that there are absolutely no US parts in the BP-12, all Turkish parts. In regards to 922R, all that would be said is that when they receive them with 5 round mags that they are compliant, and that they as the importer are compliant at that point too.

In regards to the end user they did not have a clue. They said it was up to them to make their own decision.  I have included their phone number, so you can call them yourself if you want to.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 05:42:17 PM by scstrain » Logged
kfeltenberger
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2018, 08:25:08 PM »

I'm having trouble finding the specific citation verbiage in 922r (or elsewhere that the law references) regarding magazines.  If the shotgun is, as delivered, 922r complaint, then adding a US produced magazine would, if anything, add three more compliant parts to the mix.  Thus, as delivered, including the magazine, there are no more than 10 qualifying parts that are foreign made, and by adding a US produced magazine would, if anything, bring that parts count down to 7.

If you know the relevant law that prohibits 5+ round magazines, please let me know and I'll further investigate this.
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Kurt
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2018, 11:33:31 PM »

I'm having trouble finding the specific citation verbiage in 922r (or elsewhere that the law references) regarding magazines.  If the shotgun is, as delivered, 922r complaint, then adding a US produced magazine would, if anything, add three more compliant parts to the mix.  Thus, as delivered, including the magazine, there are no more than 10 qualifying parts that are foreign made, and by adding a US produced magazine would, if anything, bring that parts count down to 7.

If you know the relevant law that prohibits 5+ round magazines, please let me know and I'll further investigate this.


I believe in trust but verify. Even though I was told today that the guns as received by the importer are 922R compliant, that would mean that they would have to have been shipped with less then 10 non qualifying parts.

The problem as I see it is that we do not know how many of the 20 non qualifying parts this gun has.  After talking to the importer today I think it would be hard to find out.  You are correct that a US made magazine counts as three qualifying parts. But until we know the number of all the Non qualifying parts..........who really knows?

I welcome you to call them yourself and see if you get any more information. 425-882-1161
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 10:38:07 AM by scstrain » Logged
LazyEngineer
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2018, 12:16:00 AM »

The lack of ability to adjust chokes is a bit of a deal-killer.  Was at a 3-gun match last weekend, and saw how guys with shotguns all had to change out chokes (or just not knock anything down), due to how that run was set up.  It's such a cool looking little gun, and then they just mailed-it-in on the no-chokes.
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