Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 15, 2018, 07:10:03 AM
Home Home Help Calendar Login Register
News:

Please support BullpupForum.com sponsors!!
. . . Midwest Industries . . . BullpupArmory.com . . . Shooting Sight . . . BullpupUnlimited.com . . . Homeland Guns . . . . . . . . . . . . AB Arms . . . GallowayPrecision.com . . . K & M Arms . . . . . . Geissele Automatics
+  BULLPUP FORUM
|-+  Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire)
| |-+  IWI TAVOR
| | |-+  IWI Tavor SAR & X-95
| | | |-+  Isreali Commandos switching back to M4 carbines.
Pages: 1 [2] Print
Author Topic: Isreali Commandos switching back to M4 carbines.  (Read 3074 times)
konigstigerii
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 28


« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2018, 06:29:48 PM »

I've recently seen some supposed pictures of Israeli commandos, where some of them had AKs, and they looked like old milled receiver AKs, the ak is a good gun, but the only reason I see to use one when you have better guns at your disposal is to "blend in"

https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/1lecpm/israels_elite_shayetet_13_naval_commandos800x534/

I don't know the age of the picture, but I always thought it was interesting Israeli companies make parts for old com-block rifles. Fab defense just released a new SKS stock...Just when I though bubba was done with SKS's  Tongue
Logged
boscoman
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 373



« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2018, 07:19:35 PM »

That particular group, Shayetet 13 has always used the AK.
Logged

"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
TNC
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 806


« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2018, 09:17:35 PM »

I may have missed it, but has anything been mentioned regarding cost between the M4 and Tavor/X95 as being a prime consideration in this possible change?  I'm relatively sure that an M4 costs less to build and maintain in a military application than the Tavor.  Just wondering if this has any bearing?

You gotta admit that the AR design is stupid simple to work on and maintain compared to our Tavors/X95's.  If there's one thing the "higher ups" like in a military application in something like firearms, it's economy and bang-for-the-buck.  We all know that the AR has been referred to as the Lego gun...for a reason.

Edit:  I kind of missed that this is a commando brigade as described.  Is this just one unit?  If it's only one unit changing their primary rifle, then maybe all of this means very little.  Maybe these guys work with our "special ops" units and want uniformity.  I don't know...probably not earth shattering.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 09:22:54 PM by TNC » Logged
boscoman
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 373



« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2018, 10:03:28 PM »

The IDF is not buying any new M4s, they have had quite the supply for years, just as they have had of AKs. As to the reason for this, who the hell knows since no reason given.
I doubt cost is a factor at this point. There are plenty of each weapon in the IDF. The IDF for years now have reserved the M4 / M16 platform to reserve / older troops because of the hassle & yes cost of retraining, but not cost of the weapons. I can only assume that the majority of the soldiers in this particular division have been & are used to using the M4 already. Again just a guess.
As to simplicity of the weapons. Cmon, much easier for the average soldier to tear down & clean a X95 over a M4. Pop the back & pull all the workings out at once. Much easier than the M4, & far less prone to failures because of being dirty.
Logged

"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
cciman
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 236



« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2018, 03:34:05 PM »

oops

All the X95's were bought up by other markets.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 03:36:38 PM by cciman » Logged
TNC
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 806


« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2018, 08:06:55 PM »

The IDF is not buying any new M4s, they have had quite the supply for years, just as they have had of AKs. As to the reason for this, who the hell knows since no reason given.
I doubt cost is a factor at this point. There are plenty of each weapon in the IDF. The IDF for years now have reserved the M4 / M16 platform to reserve / older troops because of the hassle & yes cost of retraining, but not cost of the weapons. I can only assume that the majority of the soldiers in this particular division have been & are used to using the M4 already. Again just a guess.
As to simplicity of the weapons. Cmon, much easier for the average soldier to tear down & clean a X95 over a M4. Pop the back & pull all the workings out at once. Much easier than the M4, & far less prone to failures because of being dirty.

bosco, since the IDF is probably the most advanced group that has used both the Tavor/X95 and AR, I wonder if they have any records, tests, or other substantive comparisons about service life, cycles, and other performance comparisons? 

And no...I certainly don't consider the Tavor series to be difficult to break down.  Personally I still think an M4 is easier to clean because of less enclosure in the stock, but this is more subjective than an absolute.  Obviously I have both and love both.
Logged
boscoman
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 373



« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2018, 10:00:47 PM »

bosco, since the IDF is probably the most advanced group that has used both the Tavor/X95 and AR, I wonder if they have any records, tests, or other substantive comparisons about service life, cycles, and other performance comparisons?  

Good question. I would be surprised if they don't.

The M4 / 16 wasn't really chosen by the IDF. They were given to Israel in large numbers under one of the military aid packages in the 80s when the IDF & IWI were just starting to utilize the Galil series of rifles. With the loan package the M4 / 16 became much cheaper than the Galil since as was & is the case with the aid packages, most of the money had to be spent on US equipment. Armor troops ended up sticking with the Galil because of the folding stock that made it more maneuverable getting in & out of armored vehicles. What did make the M4 / 16 popular with soldiers was the fact that it was much lighter than the Galil. Soldiers hate weight. As one SF soldier once told me, "I can tell you how many ounces a toothbrush weighs & will cut the handle in half to save weight in the my ruck sack." That being, I still wonder just what the deal with this particular group is.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 10:04:13 PM by boscoman » Logged

"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
UnlikeTape
New Posting Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2018, 01:57:07 AM »

This summer, one of our interns was an ex-Shayetet 13 member who was getting his MBA at Wharton. A couple colleagues and I took him to the range and he was surprised to see our export-spec X95s.

He told us that while he used the X95 in basic training, he had a lot more experience with AR pattern weapons, since, the X95 has never made it too far into what one might call the Tier 1 Israeli SF units. They've stuck with the M4 for a variety of reasons that he didn't fully articulate, and I didn't probe too much. However, the elite combat units (think 75th Rangers or even Green Beret equivalents) are using it, as are the regular grunts.
Logged
Verfed
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 97



« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2018, 08:02:14 AM »

Sounds to me like the majority of the force needs to be retired due to old age. Something here doesn't sound right. I haven't seen a new soldier with an M4 in more years than I can count. Hell, I haven't seen a soldier with a Tavor SAR in quite a while. Everyone is now using the X95. I'm inclined to call BS on this.

Even Maglan is using the Tavor. https://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/385651
Logged
DubageL
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 226


« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 06:51:36 AM »

I think itís more of ďitís a tool in a tool boxĒ deal than anything else. Mikey Hartman, at CAA, who has the MH1 sight, has some videos out on IDF shooting tactics. For those of you who donít know who he is, he was the head of IDF marksmanship and firearms training and created the training doctrine for the IDF. Super nice guy if you ever get to meet him. He is also the soldier pictured holding the Tavor when it was first issued. He states people who think the x95/tavor is better than the m4 are wrong. Depends on the application/use of each. Seeing how small and narrow the streets are when in Israel last summer, I could definitely see the overwhelming advantages of the x95 and Tavor. Narrow streets, mounting and dismounting vehicles, etc. room clearing could be tough with an x95 being so short peeking/sweeping around corners.
Logged
cciman
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 236



« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2018, 05:51:03 PM »

Then we should ALL be ditching our Tavors, and buying AR's, since the "head of the IDF shooting program" thinks the M4 is uperior to the X95.

I wonder who's paying his current paycheck?  There is always a back story.
Logged
Aussie E
.
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,248



« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2018, 10:49:56 PM »

I have met and talked to Mikey at SHOT, he has his own company that developed and sells the MH-1, so no one is paying his paycheck other than himself currently and in the past he pulled a paycheck from the Israeli government. People have opinions (some more valid and based on experience and some just straight personal/fan boi) and the funny thing is that sometimes opinions differ from one individual to another, imagine that?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 12:44:39 AM by Aussie E » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] Print 
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!