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Author Topic: Isreali Commandos switching back to M4 carbines.  (Read 2728 times)
Aussie E
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« on: September 06, 2018, 12:36:36 AM »

Looks like the NZDF aren't the only ones dropping bullpups to switch to the venerable Stoner design.

Add them to the list of special forces such as the SAS, SBS, Australian SAS and Commandos who issue the M4/M16 pattern rifle over the standard bullpups the rest of their military are issued.

http://www.israeldefense.com/en/node/35539

AE
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2018, 09:00:21 AM »

That's interesting. They say it's being done to standardize the weaponry. I thought Israel was planning to have everyone using Tavors in due time? The Tavor was designed specifically for modern CQB warfare. Hard to imagine they'd want to give up the Tavor's short OAL, ergos and piston system. The AR is more accurate, more adaptable, and is made of forged aluminum rather than a lot of plastic, but it's also been around for 60 years and has seen constant improvements. The Tavor is still a baby. Nevertheless, there's something to be said for sticking with something. I wonder if there were any other reasons than just "standardizing the weaponry."

Funny how bullpups just can't seem to knock traditional rifles out of place. Old tech dies hard, especially old tech that works.
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thehun
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 09:42:26 AM »

Looks like the NZDF aren't the only ones dropping bullpups to switch to the venerable Stoner design.

Add them to the list of special forces such as the SAS, SBS, Australian SAS and Commandos who issue the M4/M16 pattern rifle over the standard bullpups the rest of their military are issued.

http://www.israeldefense.com/en/node/35539

AE

Don't forget NZ as well. This makes sense...almost all SF use M4 patterned rifles now...they cross train all the time...the manual of arms...even after all these years...the M4 has almost all if not all beat.

Maybe this will prompt IWI to release their version of a M4...kind of like Steyr has.

The biggest player right now outside of the M4/HK416 design is the BREN2...the BREN2 is taking off like crazy with many units adopting it...including my home country of Hungary.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 09:44:39 AM by thehun » Logged
Aussie E
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2018, 10:58:40 AM »

I didn't forget the NZDF = New Zealand Defence Force.

I have always stated the Stoner design is the apex of the personal assualt weapon. The design has been improved substantially over the years, but no different design has replaced it as the weapon of choice for the elite fighting units of Western Civilization.

AE
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RebellionOnIce
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2018, 03:36:47 PM »

https://www.range365.com/m4-rifle-is-terribly-flawed-weapon
A good read.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 03:43:33 PM by RebellionOnIce » Logged
boscoman
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2018, 05:13:36 PM »

Sounds to me like the majority of the force needs to be retired due to old age. Something here doesn't sound right. I haven't seen a new soldier with an M4 in more years than I can count. Hell, I haven't seen a soldier with a Tavor SAR in quite a while. Everyone is now using the X95. I'm inclined to call BS on this.
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thehun
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2018, 06:52:09 PM »

I didn't forget the NZDF = New Zealand Defence Force.

I have always stated the Stoner design is the apex of the personal assualt weapon. The design has been improved substantially over the years, but no different design has replaced it as the weapon of choice for the elite fighting units of Western Civilization.

AE

My bad...didnt see NZDF in your post...yup...the AR design...whether piston or DI will be very hard to replace. It is too mainstream throughout the world.
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Rastoff
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2018, 10:53:24 PM »

I have always stated the Stoner design is the apex of the personal assualt weapon.
No, I don't agree with that. There are many rifle designs that are more reliable. That doesn't mean the AR isn't a great design, it's just not the apex. Most popular in the Western world? Absolutely.

However, no other gun on the planet comes close to the Kalashnikov for reliability and popularity. I don't like it and will probably never own one, but you can't deny it's world domination in military small arms weaponry.

I like the AR, but the X95 is a much better design in my book. Its only drawback when comparing to the M4 is weight.
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2018, 11:23:05 PM »

I have always stated the Stoner design is the apex of the personal assualt weapon.
No, I don't agree with that. There are many rifle designs that are more reliable. That doesn't mean the AR isn't a great design, it's just not the apex. Most popular in the Western world? Absolutely.

However, no other gun on the planet comes close to the Kalashnikov for reliability and popularity. I don't like it and will probably never own one, but you can't deny it's world domination in military small arms weaponry.

I like the AR, but the X95 is a much better design in my book. Its only drawback when comparing to the M4 is weight.

And even when it comes to weight, a 13" X95 is basically as light as a standard M4. The balance, however, makes it feel even lighter. It's easy to get spoiled with a rifle that you can run with one hand.

Again, I do wonder what other reasons are behind this. I thought the X95 was "the special forces weapon for the 21st century"? Seems like a regression to use the M4. I thought the Tavor was more reliable in desert environments than the M4? Now they have to go back to the AR manual of arms and forget the Tavor. And the Tavor has two battle-proven designs currently available (TAR and X95) with a third in 7.62 on the way. Seems like as good a time as any to stick with the Tavor family.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2018, 11:30:22 PM »

Again, I do wonder what other reasons are behind this.
The article is short on info and long on innuendo. I suspect that this type of unit is more likely to operate with units from other nations. The M4 is far more common throughout the world so, it makes sense if they're combining with other nations.
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 09:47:07 AM »

Again, I do wonder what other reasons are behind this.
The article is short on info and long on innuendo. I suspect that this type of unit is more likely to operate with units from other nations. The M4 is far more common throughout the world so, it makes sense if they're combining with other nations.

Yeah you're probably right. The US keeps a close relationship with Israel (particularly with Trump as president), so it's not surprising that Israeli commandos would use the same weapons as our top special forces, especially if they're training with them.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" -Stalin
konigstigerii
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2018, 10:44:17 AM »

I wonder if it has something to do with "blending in" or being able to deny your special forces were there, as a lot of special forces use M4 type rifles... The X95, even though its used by multiple countries, would stand out as an Israeli gun, or at least a government friendly to Israel.

Then if they had to ditch the weapons, they are probably marked Colt or something the US govt has handed out all over the world.
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Aussie E
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 05:19:28 PM »

I have always stated the Stoner design is the apex of the personal assualt weapon.
No, I don't agree with that. There are many rifle designs that are more reliable. That doesn't mean the AR isn't a great design, it's just not the apex. Most popular in the Western world? Absolutely.

However, no other gun on the planet comes close to the Kalashnikov for reliability and popularity. I don't like it and will probably never own one, but you can't deny it's world domination in military small arms weaponry.

I like the AR, but the X95 is a much better design in my book. Its only drawback when comparing to the M4 is weight.

That's what I love about the USA, we can have differing opinions. I have owned three AK rifles and at least mine weren't any more reliable than a maintained AR (my WASR was a jam-o-matic). The guys from Forgotten Weapons did a mud bath reliability test and the AR passed, not so for the AK. I do believe the AK is a better weapone for third world juvenile warriors, but for any standing army with a little bit of training and weapons maintainence the AR is vastly superior. To each their own, and I believe experience trumps beliefs.

AE
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Beach Bill
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 05:30:39 PM »

I agree the article lacks sufficient information to understand exactly what is happening.

I speculate that they are moving from the Tavor SAR to the M4. I wonder if they are using the X95 platform in those units, and if they are using them, will they continue to do so. The X95 ergonomics are much more similar to the M4, so I could see X95s being retained in front line units and being the preferred IDF bullpup.
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thehun
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 06:24:26 PM »

I have always stated the Stoner design is the apex of the personal assualt weapon.
No, I don't agree with that. There are many rifle designs that are more reliable. That doesn't mean the AR isn't a great design, it's just not the apex. Most popular in the Western world? Absolutely.

However, no other gun on the planet comes close to the Kalashnikov for reliability and popularity. I don't like it and will probably never own one, but you can't deny it's world domination in military small arms weaponry.

I like the AR, but the X95 is a much better design in my book. Its only drawback when comparing to the M4 is weight.

That's what I love about the USA, we can have differing opinions. I have owned three AK rifles and at least mine weren't any more reliable than a maintained AR (my WASR was a jam-o-matic). The guys from Forgotten Weapons did a mud bath reliability test and the AR passed, not so for the AK. I do believe the AK is a better weapone for third world juvenile warriors, but for any standing army with a little bit of training and weapons maintainence the AR is vastly superior. To each their own, and I believe experience trumps beliefs.

AE

Most of the crap we hear on the internet is based solely on tactical ninja knowledge.
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cciman
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2018, 04:32:34 PM »



Irregardless, these forces train and perfect how to use these chosen weapons, so it does not matter.

If you have never owned an AK based weapon, you will never know how great they are.
IWI makes one hell of a nice clone (Galil ACE), that I would consider the cadillac of AK's.
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Aussie E
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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2018, 09:01:08 PM »



Irregardless, these forces train and perfect how to use these chosen weapons, so it does not matter.

If you have never owned an AK based weapon, you will never know how great they are.
IWI makes one hell of a nice clone (Galil ACE), that I would consider the cadillac of AK's.

If the Galil us the Cadaillac, then the Valmet must be the Bently.

AE
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thehun
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2018, 12:29:39 AM »



Irregardless, these forces train and perfect how to use these chosen weapons, so it does not matter.

If you have never owned an AK based weapon, you will never know how great they are.
IWI makes one hell of a nice clone (Galil ACE), that I would consider the cadillac of AK's.

I've owned many...including a FSB AK102 clone...they are pretty awesome...but I would never take one over an AR, Tavor or any other high quality western long gun.

AK is popular for a reason...cheap to build and cheap to shoot with decent accuracy.
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Aussie E
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2018, 11:12:35 PM »

Wrong thread.

AE
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 11:15:04 PM by Aussie E » Logged
Valaraukarsbane
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2018, 01:31:15 PM »

I wonder if it has something to do with "blending in" or being able to deny your special forces were there, as a lot of special forces use M4 type rifles... The X95, even though its used by multiple countries, would stand out as an Israeli gun, or at least a government friendly to Israel.


Good point. Our local carbine instructor is a former British special forces guy, and he said his unit would carry AKs as backup weapons on many missions in case they had to blend in and escape (presumably, they were deployed in a region where the AK was a common weapon of whomever they were fighting). That's a somewhat different type of blending, but the fact remains that the reasons special forces have for carrying weapons can often have to do with reasons other than simple combat effectiveness.

That, together with operating in joint groups where a standardized weapon is useful, could easily explain the whole decision, and I doubt the Israelis really want to share all their reasons with everyone.

And of course, it may be simply the preference of the people in charge of this decision. I've seen quotes from Israeli soldiers who said the Tavor/x95 is better than the m4 and worse than the m4. If the guy in charge of the decision really hates the feel of one of them, that could explain it. Military small arms decisions are not, historically, always based upon careful evidence-based considerations.
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