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Author Topic: IDF round X95 handguards being discontinued  (Read 1685 times)
BellatorInvictus
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« on: August 27, 2018, 03:47:48 PM »

Well I received word from IWI earlier today and it's unfortunately the case that IWI Israel is not going to be manufacturing any more round handguards. It's a sad day for US X95 owners.

I tried suggesting everything I could think of--organizing a group buy, contracting an outside company to produce them, surplus, etc. It doesn't look like they are interested in any of that. I know that IWI US has their hands full with new products and are behind on things they have already agreed to produce (i.e. X95 SBR), let alone things they haven't agreed to.

All we can do is keep expressing interest. If you're at all interested in getting these handguards, I suggest contacting IWI one more time to say so, as we are about to miss the boat permanently here.  Sad


* idf_infantry_in_gaza_0714_800.jpg (86.92 KB, 696x535 - viewed 181 times.)
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MajorKong
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2018, 05:45:33 PM »

I am not surprised since the IDF is getting away from 13" barrels.   Those round hand guards were made expressly for the shorter barrels. 

You know how IWI.US has that warning that you should always use magazines made in the US to remain in compliance.  I wonder if the same applies to hand guards and other parts. 

Do you have a part number for the round hand guard?  Have you tried contacting a firearms or military surplus dealer in Israel?  Google "firearms dealer in Israel".  I got some hits but I don't read Hebrew.    Weapon sales and transfers are pretty tightly controlled in Israel, but you are talking about a piece of plastic and not a firearm.  Try befriending an IDF soldier in an online forum to get ideas about the availability of the part through surplus.  Last, the X95 is licensed for production in several countries including India, Ukraine, and I read somewhere Vietnam.  It may be possible to source some parts through those countries. 

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cciman
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2018, 05:49:22 PM »

IWI-USA is a teensy part of a large military and security conglomerate, making heavy weapons, and warefare systems for the Isreali military machine.

From their website:
"IWI US, Inc. is a proud member of the SK Group, a leading group of global Defense and Security companies that includes Israel Weapons Industries, (IWI) Ltd.; IWI US, Inc., Meprolight Ltd. (electro-optical systems), Camero Ltd.  (through-the-wall sensing systems), Israel Shipyards Ltd.  (ship manufacturing and repair), and Uni-scope Ltd. (optical periscopes, riflescopes and binoculars)."

Probably the Isreali company similar to L3, parent company of Eotech.  (Remember that Eotech did not bat a wink for buying all of their optical sights back at full retail price no matter what the age in their "recall").

Just in case you are holding your breath.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L3_Technologies

http://www.sk-g.net/#about

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whitetail
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2018, 08:37:28 PM »

Guess we just have to work on alternatives Smiley
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DubageL
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2018, 07:41:16 PM »

I have the IDF x95 armorers manual. Page 79-80 has the entire foregrip and individual parts breakdown. It does not have a complete “assembly” part number though. Even if the front sight and rails are missing, you could easily get a tavor front sight and fabricate those top/bottom rails using picantinny rail sections. The major parts you need are the foregrip/handguard, stabilizer sleeve/bushing, sight stabilizer/front ring, and front sling swivel.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 07:44:56 PM by DubageL » Logged
whitetail
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 08:54:52 PM »

I have the IDF x95 armorers manual. Page 79-80 has the entire foregrip and individual parts breakdown. It does not have a complete “assembly” part number though. Even if the front sight and rails are missing, you could easily get a tavor front sight and fabricate those top/bottom rails using picantinny rail sections. The major parts you need are the foregrip/handguard, stabilizer sleeve/bushing, sight stabilizer/front ring, and front sling swivel.

Can you post pics of these parts in the book? Also where did you get the book?
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DubageL
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 09:38:37 PM »

It’s classified. 😉 Im me your email.
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 10:44:15 PM »

I have the IDF x95 armorers manual. Page 79-80 has the entire foregrip and individual parts breakdown. It does not have a complete “assembly” part number though. Even if the front sight and rails are missing, you could easily get a tavor front sight and fabricate those top/bottom rails using picantinny rail sections. The major parts you need are the foregrip/handguard, stabilizer sleeve/bushing, sight stabilizer/front ring, and front sling swivel.

Good info. My understanding, however, is that the flip-up front sight on the IDF X95 is different from that on the IDF Tavor. I'm talking about the plastic piece that holds the tritium front sight post. Aside from that, yes, the pic rails are no problem. I could easily design replicas of those and have them machined. I'm less worried about the metal parts--there are ways of recreating those if necessary. It's the injection molded plastic parts that are impossible to get right without the proper (i.e. original) tooling. And even if someone made a decent facsimile, I'd still want the OEM IWI part for the sake of value, fit/finish, durability, etc.
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 10:45:52 PM »

I guess I don't get it. What's the benefit of the round hand guard? Outside of making your X95 an IDF clone, I fail to see the advantage. And if you want to make an IDF clone, the IDF isn't going to be using it anymore so, you don't really need it.

That last part is a little tongue in cheek. I know that there are a few guys out there that want it just because they want it and that's enough for me. Apparently there just isn't a large enough market for them to import that particular part. I'm sorry for you guys.

Personally I have no interest. I love the X95 as it came from the factory. So, sorry, but no calls to IWI from me.
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whitetail
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2018, 06:02:41 AM »

I guess I don't get it. What's the benefit of the round hand guard? Outside of making your X95 an IDF clone, I fail to see the advantage. And if you want to make an IDF clone, the IDF isn't going to be using it anymore so, you don't really need it.

That last part is a little tongue in cheek. I know that there are a few guys out there that want it just because they want it and that's enough for me. Apparently there just isn't a large enough market for them to import that particular part. I'm sorry for you guys.

Personally I have no interest. I love the X95 as it came from the factory. So, sorry, but no calls to IWI from me.

Every photo of the suppressed SMG X95 Variant has the round handguard as the silencer sits inside of it, due to it having an even shorter barrel than the Micro tavor, 11” vs 13”.

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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2018, 03:30:56 PM »

I guess I don't get it. What's the benefit of the round hand guard? Outside of making your X95 an IDF clone, I fail to see the advantage. And if you want to make an IDF clone, the IDF isn't going to be using it anymore so, you don't really need it.

That last part is a little tongue in cheek. I know that there are a few guys out there that want it just because they want it and that's enough for me. Apparently there just isn't a large enough market for them to import that particular part. I'm sorry for you guys.

Personally I have no interest. I love the X95 as it came from the factory. So, sorry, but no calls to IWI from me.

There are multiple advantages to the IDF's traditional fore grip over the US civvie version. As whitetail mentioned, a big one is that it allows integral suppression--something totally impossible with the newer one. If someone wanted, they could SBR their X95, chop the barrel down to 11," and install an integral suppressor for the same IDF-style setup.

It does give the correct appearance for classic IDF clones. I prefer that look, so naturally that's what I want. You can disagree in taste, but it's like saying to someone who wants to build an M16A1 clone--"why not just be happy with KAC quad rails?" They're not correct for what I want to build. For me it's that simple, but there are other reasons as well.

I don't like the newer fore grip because of the panels that you press to remove the rail covers. I find myself constantly hitting and popping them up with my thumb. I can't stand that. That may be less of an issue with the standard elongated fore grip, but it's very annoying with the short version. The round handguard doesn't have this issue. It also looks a lot more comfortable since well, it's round. Stylistically the round handguard even looks like it was designed for the gun, while the newer ones are more angular and do not match as well. They look like a later development, which is exactly what they are.

To answer your point that the newer style is now being used by the IDF so we should forget the old ones anyway, that's not entirely correct. The new fore grips that the IDF is using do resemble the ones we have here in the US, but they have already been updated by IWI and are no longer the same. The IDF did away with the quick-detach rail covers, probably for the same reason I mentioned above (they pop up easily and get in the way).

Other reasons:

I don't like plastic pic rails. The round handguard has aluminum pic rails on top and bottom. The round handguard also allows for a much lighter setup than the full aluminum top rail that is now being used. I have a proprietary Tavor M21 mount, M21 optic and IDF gas block, and this combination allows for a much lighter setup than standard (a very good thing considering how heavy a standard US X95 is). And I'm not exaggerating--changing to the IDF setup has made my X95 feel like a totally different gun. Originally I was just playing around one day and swapped over the optic and gas block from my IDF16 SAR, but when I did this, it just felt RIGHT. Both a lot lighter and better balanced. It felt like a completely different gun and I knew I wasn't going back to my old setup (which was the new handguard, long top rail, and Mepro M5 sight similar to the latest IDF X95s). You can't really appreciate that unless you were to pick it up and handle it yourself.

Lastly, you're wrong about there not being enough interest in these. There is a HUGE demand for these handguards. People have been asking IWI US to sell them for the last couple of years, and they have recognized that the tremendous demand has been there. I've talked to them about it on the phone and through email at least a dozen times and while they recognize how many people have requested them, they emphasize that Israel is discontinuing them and this is why they are not able to get any in. I don't entirely understand that because IWI Israel still advertises them on their integrally-suppressed X95s. So it can't be a totally discontinued part yet...? And it's worth mentioning that IWI US *has* gotten some of these round handguards in--I've seen them in social media pics on Facebook. Even Larry Vicker's video with Tom Alibrando on the X95 has one in there with the IDF handguard.

The thread I started about this last year (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11882.0) has currently had over 11,000 views. There is plenty of interest.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 03:32:35 PM by BellatorInvictus » Logged

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DubageL
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2018, 07:48:28 PM »

Hey guys here is the IDF x95 armorers manual link.

http://tar21.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/X95_armorers_manual.pdf
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Rastoff
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2018, 12:49:46 AM »

No need to explain your reasoning BellatorInvictus, I get it. You want it and I agree that that's enough. I sincerely hope you get one.

However, I don't think I'm wrong about the lack of interest. Any business is in business to make money. They're only going to provide products they think will make them money. That's the nature of business. If even 25% of those that bought an X95 were interested in the round forearm, they would offer it. Why? Because it would make money. No, I suspect that the actual interest is less than 5%. If the interest were huge, as you say, this forearm would be readily available. Even if it were in limited quantities.

The thread I started about this last year (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11882.0) has currently had over 11,000 views. There is plenty of interest.
This is not an indicator of a lot of interest. First those views are made up of individuals, like you and me, who have looked at the thread more than once. So, the number of views doesn't indicate the number of people interested. For ease of math, let's say that most people looked at the thread twice. That makes 5,500 who might be interested in buying a round forearm. But even that number is not the real interest because many of them just like to read anything about the X95, like me, but have no intention of actually purchasing this particular item. So, drop the number at least in half again which brings us down to 2,750. Now, out of those that have interest, how many will actually buy the part? Based on what I see other people buy vs talk about buying, we can cut the number in half again; 1,375.

A more telling number is the response to the poll. You got 48 people to respond and only 45 wanted the part. Out of over 11K views only 48 people would take the time to say they had any opinion at all and not all of them wanted the part.

No, if there were HUGE interest as you say, the part would be available now.

There is only one other factor that could prevent the sale of that here, law. There may be some weird legal standing that doesn't allow it. I don't think that's true, but it is a possibility. I know many innocuous gun parts can't be exported from the US just because they're gun parts. The same could go for this forearm.


This all probably sounds like I'm trying to irritate you or be the bad guy. That is not my intention. I'm just playing the other side to give you a different point of view as to why they aren't offering it. I really do hope you get one. I've been wrong about things like this before. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong now.


Heck, this could be an opportunity for you. Manufacture the part yourself. If the interest is as huge as you say, it's a real money maker.
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2018, 09:34:47 AM »

No need to explain your reasoning BellatorInvictus, I get it. You want it and I agree that that's enough. I sincerely hope you get one.

However, I don't think I'm wrong about the lack of interest. Any business is in business to make money. They're only going to provide products they think will make them money. That's the nature of business. If even 25% of those that bought an X95 were interested in the round forearm, they would offer it. Why? Because it would make money. No, I suspect that the actual interest is less than 5%. If the interest were huge, as you say, this forearm would be readily available. Even if it were in limited quantities.

The thread I started about this last year (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=11882.0) has currently had over 11,000 views. There is plenty of interest.
This is not an indicator of a lot of interest. First those views are made up of individuals, like you and me, who have looked at the thread more than once. So, the number of views doesn't indicate the number of people interested. For ease of math, let's say that most people looked at the thread twice. That makes 5,500 who might be interested in buying a round forearm. But even that number is not the real interest because many of them just like to read anything about the X95, like me, but have no intention of actually purchasing this particular item. So, drop the number at least in half again which brings us down to 2,750. Now, out of those that have interest, how many will actually buy the part? Based on what I see other people buy vs talk about buying, we can cut the number in half again; 1,375.

A more telling number is the response to the poll. You got 48 people to respond and only 45 wanted the part. Out of over 11K views only 48 people would take the time to say they had any opinion at all and not all of them wanted the part.

No, if there were HUGE interest as you say, the part would be available now.

There is only one other factor that could prevent the sale of that here, law. There may be some weird legal standing that doesn't allow it. I don't think that's true, but it is a possibility. I know many innocuous gun parts can't be exported from the US just because they're gun parts. The same could go for this forearm.


This all probably sounds like I'm trying to irritate you or be the bad guy. That is not my intention. I'm just playing the other side to give you a different point of view as to why they aren't offering it. I really do hope you get one. I've been wrong about things like this before. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong now.


Heck, this could be an opportunity for you. Manufacture the part yourself. If the interest is as huge as you say, it's a real money maker.


Those 11,000 views are probably mostly from lurkers--people who *are* interested, but don't have accounts here and don't take the time to sign up just to vote in the poll. The poll *is* over 90% in support of the round fore grip, even if only about 50 so far have taken the time to vote in it.

I understand why you think that business-wise, if there were a huge demand, IWI would have found some way of offering these handguards already. Again I will just emphasize what IWI told me--that IWI US *does* want to get them in and sell them because as one rep told me on the phone, "we've had a LOT of requests for these," but IWI Israel does not want to produce them any more because they're moving toward the newer style. The rep told me on the phone that Israel is discontinuing the part, and that they're not interested in letting anyone else produce it for them either.

I am in manufacturing and sure, I could design a visually *perfect* replica of this. But the point is that I don't want a knock-off--not even my own. I want the real IWI part, for the reasons I stated in my last post. I may be able to make something *look* totally accurate based on reference pics, but without having a real one in my hand, I would only be getting the dimensions close, not perfect. Plus I have no idea what the texture of a real one is like. I don't know exactly what kind of plastic they're using, how their molds are set up, what type of colorant they use (black wouldn't be that hard but what if I wanted to make one in FDE?). Even if I had the money to invest in all the tooling and find a company to do the injection molding, at the end of it all I'd just be making knock-offs, and then there would be of course legal trouble because well, I'm making unauthorized reproductions of IWI's intellectual property. I already asked them about contracting these out and they said that would be unlikely. They don't want to sell them, and they don't want anyone else selling them. It couldn't be more frustrating.

So again, the only hope here is that IWI Israel changes their mind. If there is such little interest as you postulate Rastoff, then even a run of 100 would be enough to satisfy collectors like me here in the States. I know that's completely wrong though. A run of 100 would sell out in a couple of hours or even less, and IWI would be left with people saying "when are you getting more?" You would be surprised by how popular these are if only people had the opportunity to get them.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

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whitetail
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2018, 10:43:16 AM »

The dimensions are 4” long and 2.5” in diameter per some tape measurements from a gentlemen at IWI.
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DubageL
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2018, 11:31:47 AM »

I posted up the link to the IDF x95 factory manual. It has the breakdown of the handguard parts and part numbers.
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Rastoff
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2018, 11:34:40 AM »

Ultimately the end result will be a clone no matter what you do because the actual gun isn't available (unless you join the IDF). So, a cloned part would at least help you toward your goal of cloning the gun, wouldn't it?

And, yes, I'm sure the start up would be pricey. I looked into building a part of my own design and the initial production run would have run about $5K. This forearm would run at least double that. Still, at $40/unit you'd only have to sell 300 or so to be in the black. Further, if IWI Israel is discontinuing them, how hard would it be to get permission to make them? They might even sell you the designs for a fee or some royalty.

I'm just thinking out loud here. There are only a few places that make any kind of parts for the SAR and X95. They had to start with a small outlay of money and now they're making money. You could be part of that.

As I stated earlier, I'm just trying to look at it from a conservative point of view as far as how big the market is. You're obviously closer to this than I am. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I say take a shot. This could be the beginning of something really great. Start with this forearm and if it makes money, you could turn it into an entire line of parts needed to clone the military version of lots of guns. That's what Turnbull did with the 1911.
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2018, 02:42:01 PM »

You could design the handguard to be extremly close, but three vent holes or change to a different shape etc, and now it is a derivative of the original item, which, is now discontinued anyway. Instead lf spending the money on producing your own, design it, export it in an STL file and let people get it 3D printed, some filaments withstand nearly 400 degrees now. You say you want this handguard so badly, and you have all the skills to make it, yet not bad enough to want to actually take the time to do so, where I have probably searched for thos handguard to the same extent you have and contacted foreign companies licensed to make the X95, and yet here i am taking the time to produce an actual file in tinkercad thats somewhat of a copy of the original. I’m actually putting in the work to get it, and im going to leave the files open to anyone else who wants them when I am done.
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2018, 07:59:31 PM »

I personally don't understand wanting the gun to mimic the IDF model - including the eye sling loop insted of the push button quick disconnect, or the one model withoput the toprail.   

I agree, there will not be enough interest in your clone for this project to fly.  I suspect only about 10 people (ones posting on this handguard topic- me excluded) would actually want to ditch their current functional factory rails to play IDF. 

Try contacting someone in Isreal (Zahal?)  to see if surplus mil parts can be bought and shipped to you on this continent.  I want a mushroom hat, but not for $50.


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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2018, 10:18:53 PM »

Cciman--it isn't about "playing IDF." Don't make comments like that, please. If you don't care about these handguards, or get the idea of military clone rifles or the desire for them, that's great. Keep it to yourself though and stop derailing this thread. I meant for this to be a discussion for people who *do* care, who would like to do something to make it possible to acquire these handguards. If you're tired of reading about this topic or other things like the paracord sling loops, then skip over them. What do you care? You have what you want, as you said. And again I emphasize--there *is* plenty of interest to warrant having IWI make this part available. The round handguard is just as "functional" as the quad rail version. The X95 is an extremely compact gun, and with the original SBR design, the front handguard is so short that it isn't useful to have rails on the sides because anything mounted there would get in the way of your hands. The only way around that is to use a vertical grip, and I hate vertical grips. With the long US fore grip this isn't as much of an issue because there is room there for both mounting things on the sides and still having room for your hand below. The only rail I use on the fore grip is the top one anyway, so personally I'd be more than happy to get rid of the new fore grip with the awkward rail panels.

Rastoff--I appreciate your constructive suggestions, but again, there is only one solution I'm personally looking for here, and I think most people would agree--I want the original part made by IWI. It would not be a big deal at all for them to make it--they just don't want to. That's why I've been trying to rally the troops here for over a year to get the message across to IWI that this is a high-demand product. IWI US has gotten the message loud and clear, but IWI Israel isn't interested because they feel their new design is superior and everyone should have that. I've already contacted IWI Israel about this but got no response.

Whitetail--I praise your efforts in trying to make rail covers that mimic the original handguard. By all means, I hope you continue your work and make the files available for people to use. But I have a different mindset and as I've said before, I want the original part. Just because I haven't designed a replica of the part like you have doesn't mean that I'm not doing any work to get this. I started the petition thread here last year; I've called and emailed IWI US more times than I remember. I've emailed IWI Israel; I've contacted foreign militaria companies for leads. I've done all I know how to do. I do 3D design--trust me, I could make a replica of this that would look exact externally, but that's not what I want to do. 3D printing is simply not capable of making this part as accurately, smoothly, or with the same durability as the injection molded plastic. It may withstand 400 degrees, but being dropped from four or five feet up? The military part is properly engineered. I may have the ability to design a visually-perfect replica, but that beauty would only be skin-deep. I don't have the qualifications to design something like this to any kind of functional mil-spec standard. That's why, for me anyway, the only solution is for IWI to just make the part. Even if I had money for startup costs to invest in the tooling and the engineering credentials, I *highly,* *highly* doubt IWI would give me permission to make the parts since I'm not already a qualified military weapons producer.

Yeah I guess I'll just let it go and keep quiet about this now. Discussing it here doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. It's been over a year and IWI isn't going to make it available. I think that's a shame and hopefully one day they'll change their minds.

Whatever. Life goes on. Keep enjoying your X95s.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

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