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Author Topic: Lets See If I Can Break It (My MDR)  (Read 13890 times)
50BMG
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« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2018, 10:30:07 PM »

The MDR owners group on Facebook has some positive reviews, they are out there.  Also Coldbore, I appreciate the knowledge and experience with the MDR that you bring to the forum and I know others do as well.  Thanks.
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ES Tactical
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« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2018, 10:43:14 PM »

Measuring the OAL with a hornady gauge and some quick measurements of fired brass seems to match a SAAMI chamber. I've also not seen anything from DT saying it was designed for, or to use their factory ammo. I just got a new MDR last week and it runs M80, M118LR, Hornady 168gr TAP and some unknown remington factory soft points that I had in a zip lock on a shelf.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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CabbitOne
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« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2018, 11:44:34 PM »

Holy f***, this is turning into quite the s*** show. Especially on a thread just intended to share my experiences with the rifle.


RE: Chamber spec hypothesis;
Very well could be contributing to the issue(s). I'm not set up to check .308 chambers, so I can't test it. Nor do any of us know what DT's spec calls for. Though it does make me frequently wonder about fluting....
Someone said something along the lines of there being more than just a tight/loose chamber, and I tend to agree based on my sample size of one.
I'd be curious to see if DT's ammo made any difference, but I highly doubt it would perform magically different than any other match ammo.

RE: coldboremiracle;
Thanks for sharing what knowledge you have. Even if its not what we want to hear. Always interested in hearing from those who are on the other side of the curtain. Please keep chiming in and letting the s*** slide off. The more we hear from DT, even from employees acting on their own accord, the less it seems like "OH s***! there are problems better go radio silent"

RE: Custom Ammo;
Pretty sure any company making barrels/chambers being branded as .308 or 7.62 or a company selling ammo branded as shame is asking for a pretty big lawsuit if they're not following SAAMI spec with that branding and as a result cause a catastrophic event. I can't fathom any company intentionally doing this while siamotainously not telling its customers.

RE: Positive reports;
As some have already said, most people who are happy aren't posting online about it. Heck, I shoot my AUGs all the time and unless I'm answering a question related to my experiences, I'm not posting about it. The internet is everyone's soapbox for good or bad.
Unfortunately, none of us know how many MDRs are in the wild. As such, we can't truly estimate what their failure rate is. I'm in agreement, that is is probably high. A lot higher than it ought to be. But we don't know solid numbers.
Actually started this thread hoping I would be one of those good experiences and give some hope to others out there. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case. Oh well.

RE: My rifle;
Its on its way back, great communication back and forth. Two videos showing function with a variety of ammo. In spite of everything, I'm still excited to shoot it.
 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:46:50 PM by CabbitOne » Logged
squiros
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« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2018, 02:33:01 AM »

the people who go online are independent of the people who are negative. i've worked as a statistician and a friend does so on a corporate level. the statistics you see of positive to negative are the same online as they are in real life and what the company should expect most of the time (depending on a few things). which kind of makes sense, there's no reason that people who go online are more likely to be negative. that means a survey online should be representative most of the time. this is why amazon reviews work, for example.

saami spec is always the same in an ideal situation. if you measure some cartridges, this will become immediately apparent. the outside edge of 2.0 is 2.008. worst 'case' scenario, it goes to 2.010 or something horrifying.
"The SAAMI spec for .308 Win case length is 1.995"-2.015", and the military spec is 2.000"-2.015"."
for a lot of professional competitors, this is absolutely critical to get to 1/4 moa or whatever. this is because a lot of guns have a 'jump' where the bullet jumps into rifling. as a result, accuracy degrades considerably. a lot of competitors will actually test distances so that this bullet jump is minimized for best accuracy. this is the theory behind why reloads are overall more accurate as well.
dt could reasonably be closer to say 2.013 on average and barrel accordingly. this would be inside saami specifications but would also be tailored to dt ammo.

also keep in mind, PR doesn't have access to engineering specs and for good reason. best practices for engineering may require a good understanding of industry standards which PR people usually lack. this is not a shot at any employees, it's true for all industries. whether or not Public Relations gets to divulge parameters that could be company secrets is generally up to the Project Manager who consults with engineers and does have a sound understanding of the implications. even if the PR is an engineer, it would be better to keep silent about most technical data unless authorized. if dt WAS doing this internally they definitely wouldn't tell PR and would not admit to it publicly. most buyers aren't that interested, the enthusiasts may not know what to do with the info, PR may have to defend it and may not do so correctly and etc.
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2018, 10:07:03 AM »

squiros,

Thanks for the info and welcome to BPF!  Welcome!
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CabbitOne
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« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2018, 11:15:28 AM »

the people who go online are independent of the people who are negative. i've worked as a statistician and a friend does so on a corporate level. the statistics you see of positive to negative are the same online as they are in real life and what the company should expect most of the time (depending on a few things). which kind of makes sense, there's no reason that people who go online are more likely to be negative. that means a survey online should be representative most of the time. this is why amazon reviews work, for example.

saami spec is always the same in an ideal situation. if you measure some cartridges, this will become immediately apparent. the outside edge of 2.0 is 2.008. worst 'case' scenario, it goes to 2.010 or something horrifying.
"The SAAMI spec for .308 Win case length is 1.995"-2.015", and the military spec is 2.000"-2.015"."
for a lot of professional competitors, this is absolutely critical to get to 1/4 moa or whatever. this is because a lot of guns have a 'jump' where the bullet jumps into rifling. as a result, accuracy degrades considerably. a lot of competitors will actually test distances so that this bullet jump is minimized for best accuracy. this is the theory behind why reloads are overall more accurate as well.
dt could reasonably be closer to say 2.013 on average and barrel accordingly. this would be inside saami specifications but would also be tailored to dt ammo.

also keep in mind, PR doesn't have access to engineering specs and for good reason. best practices for engineering may require a good understanding of industry standards which PR people usually lack. this is not a shot at any employees, it's true for all industries. whether or not Public Relations gets to divulge parameters that could be company secrets is generally up to the Project Manager who consults with engineers and does have a sound understanding of the implications. even if the PR is an engineer, it would be better to keep silent about most technical data unless authorized. if dt WAS doing this internally they definitely wouldn't tell PR and would not admit to it publicly. most buyers aren't that interested, the enthusiasts may not know what to do with the info, PR may have to defend it and may not do so correctly and etc.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, merely wishing to know more information from someone specialized in the area of statistics.

Why would people take the time to go online and post positive reviews? I would think this isn't like an online survey, simply because people are not being prompted for their feedback. Again, I would think only emotional factors would drive the majority of posters to post anything. So we're left with diehard hopefuls defending DT and those with negative experiences comprising the majority of posts.

Thats not even including the likely uncounted number who simply do not post either way. Many people do not spend time on forums or even facebook groups. I would think the number of those who eschew internet communities are likely higher when we deal with firearms enthusiasts. The "don't want people knowing my business" mentality. I would think that your sample is not representative of the whole in this instance.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:17:07 AM by CabbitOne » Logged
coldboremiracle
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« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2018, 11:30:04 AM »

the people who go online are independent of the people who are negative. i've worked as a statistician and a friend does so on a corporate level. the statistics you see of positive to negative are the same online as they are in real life and what the company should expect most of the time (depending on a few things). which kind of makes sense, there's no reason that people who go online are more likely to be negative. that means a survey online should be representative most of the time. this is why amazon reviews work, for example.

saami spec is always the same in an ideal situation. if you measure some cartridges, this will become immediately apparent. the outside edge of 2.0 is 2.008. worst 'case' scenario, it goes to 2.010 or something horrifying.
"The SAAMI spec for .308 Win case length is 1.995"-2.015", and the military spec is 2.000"-2.015"."
for a lot of professional competitors, this is absolutely critical to get to 1/4 moa or whatever. this is because a lot of guns have a 'jump' where the bullet jumps into rifling. as a result, accuracy degrades considerably. a lot of competitors will actually test distances so that this bullet jump is minimized for best accuracy. this is the theory behind why reloads are overall more accurate as well.
dt could reasonably be closer to say 2.013 on average and barrel accordingly. this would be inside saami specifications but would also be tailored to dt ammo.

also keep in mind, PR doesn't have access to engineering specs and for good reason. best practices for engineering may require a good understanding of industry standards which PR people usually lack. this is not a shot at any employees, it's true for all industries. whether or not Public Relations gets to divulge parameters that could be company secrets is generally up to the Project Manager who consults with engineers and does have a sound understanding of the implications. even if the PR is an engineer, it would be better to keep silent about most technical data unless authorized. if dt WAS doing this internally they definitely wouldn't tell PR and would not admit to it publicly. most buyers aren't that interested, the enthusiasts may not know what to do with the info, PR may have to defend it and may not do so correctly and etc.
Why would people take the time to go online and post positive reviews? I would think this isn't like an online survey, simply because people are not being prompted for their feedback. Again, I would think only emotional factors would drive the majority of posters to post anything. So we're left with diehard hopefuls defending DT and those with negative experiences comprising the majority of posts.

Thats not even including the likely uncounted number who simply do not post either way. Many people do not spend time on forums or even facebook groups. I would think the number of those who eschew internet communities are likely higher when we deal with firearms enthusiasts. The "don't want people knowing my business" mentality. I would think that your sample is not representative of the whole in this instance.

Having seen MUCH data specifically related to the MDR and its owners, I agree with ^this assessment 100% 
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« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2018, 12:11:11 PM »

Yup. I would say only 5% of firearm owners are true enthusiast...and that same 5% are the only ones that probably seek any sort of additional training on firearms outside of a mandatory CCW class.

I would like to encourage MDR owners who might read this forum but do not post is to post their positive experiences with the MDR...I think it would be great to hear.
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CabbitOne
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« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2018, 12:49:34 PM »

Yup. I would say only 5% of firearm owners are true enthusiast...and that same 5% are the only ones that probably seek any sort of additional training on firearms outside of a mandatory CCW class.

I would like to encourage MDR owners who might read this forum but do not post is to post their positive experiences with the MDR...I think it would be great to hear.


I feel like that first 5% might be a little high, though we could be generous with the term enthusiast and bump it up a little... and that second 5% is probably more like 2.5%.  Tongue

I posted the same sentiment several times in the GB section. I'd love to see GOOD reports. Every so often I've seen a few on the FB page but its usually like "got her out to the range and shot XXX rounds, love this gun" then radio silence.
What I really want to see is reports of guns, previously working, run through classes and competitions. Regardless of a positive or negative outcome.
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thehun
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« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2018, 01:50:20 PM »

Bingo.

Like GeeMan on the CZ forums...his CZ BREN 805 has over 20K rounds (just got an update from him on round count)...without a hiccup...he ordered several spare parts in case (CZ does a great job with that)...and he only needed to replace the gas plug as it had slight erosion....at 19K fired...he stated it was still holding 2-3MOA with M855.

When he sent an email to CZ, they stated that the military overhaul schedule is at 20K rounds (springs, extractor and wear items)...so for most civilians shooting...that can extend further...cemented that the platform is solid.

Everything on the BREN though is bar stock steel or forged 7075.

Those types of reports are the ones that get me excited, really excited about a platform...someone that has the capability outside of the factory to put a weapon through its paces...heck...any platform that can do 10K rounds fired with a flawless report and along the way some of the springs needed to be replaced...I would be super impressed.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 03:15:11 PM by thehun » Logged
Blackandwhiteknight
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« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2018, 10:14:03 PM »

Yup. I would say only 5% of firearm owners are true enthusiast...and that same 5% are the only ones that probably seek any sort of additional training on firearms outside of a mandatory CCW class.

I would like to encourage MDR owners who might read this forum but do not post is to post their positive experiences with the MDR...I think it would be great to hear.


I feel like that first 5% might be a little high, though we could be generous with the term enthusiast and bump it up a little... and that second 5% is probably more like 2.5%.  Tongue

I posted the same sentiment several times in the GB section. I'd love to see GOOD reports. Every so often I've seen a few on the FB page but its usually like "got her out to the range and shot XXX rounds, love this gun" then radio silence.
What I really want to see is reports of guns, previously working, run through classes and competitions. Regardless of a positive or negative outcome.

This right here is why the stats are off.  There were a bunch of people posting on BPF before the MDR launched. Once they got their guns, the people that got working guns went off the play.  No comment, gun if fine.  The vocal bunch are the enthusiasts, and the people that got guns that don't work...  On top of that most casual shooters are not going to nearly stress the gun enough to have issues.  Grabbing a few boxes of good ammo and plinky for an hour or so is quite a bit different than shooting it like you want to fight with it.
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Tubal
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« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2018, 11:07:41 PM »

Yup. I would say only 5% of firearm owners are true enthusiast...and that same 5% are the only ones that probably seek any sort of additional training on firearms outside of a mandatory CCW class.

I would like to encourage MDR owners who might read this forum but do not post is to post their positive experiences with the MDR...I think it would be great to hear.


I feel like that first 5% might be a little high, though we could be generous with the term enthusiast and bump it up a little... and that second 5% is probably more like 2.5%.  Tongue

I posted the same sentiment several times in the GB section. I'd love to see GOOD reports. Every so often I've seen a few on the FB page but its usually like "got her out to the range and shot XXX rounds, love this gun" then radio silence.
What I really want to see is reports of guns, previously working, run through classes and competitions. Regardless of a positive or negative outcome.

... The vocal bunch are the enthusiasts, and the people that got guns that don't work... 

The most vocal bunch are the people that just like to complain...

The people who got guns that are having issues, talking about them, talking about what they tried, what they didn't, what the status is, etc, those are the people worth listening to and that have interesting things to say.

The people who have never touched the gun but post every third post about how crap the MDR is, they tend to be the most vocal bunch, and why it seems like the MDR has a lot more issues than it does.

And it's not just the MDR.  Seems like you see these types anytime a new interesting topic/item/technology comes up.
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mityno1
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« Reply #152 on: June 13, 2018, 11:13:02 PM »

...than shooting it like you want to fight with it.

What I think you meant to say was, "...than shooting it as *if* you had to fight with it."

Words can be twisted out of context to imply things that you did not mean to say. No good person ever "wants to fight," but every responsible person should train to have the capacity to defend their family, friends, and neighbors if threatened.

Part of our responsibility to the firearms culture is to portray our peaceful intentions clearly and not allow gun grabbing globalists to spin doctor our image into a bunch of "Dirty Harry/Death Wish" crazy vigilantes spoiling for a fight.
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« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2018, 12:26:27 AM »

CabbitOne,
The the bottom of the upper receiver is a guiding surface for the mag-release transfer bar so if you are actually it with the lower receiver separated from the upper receiver it will not keep the transfer bar in proper alignment.  Please test it only with the receivers assembled together.  This is a part of the design and not a failure of the mechanism.  If you are having issues with it installed on the upper receiver then it has a problem.

Thanks

Nick
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« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2018, 03:36:16 AM »

The MDR has a SAAMI Spec chamber and no the chamber was not specially designed to fire our ammunition.  It was designed to fire all SAAMI spec ammo.
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CabbitOne
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« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2018, 12:29:01 PM »

CabbitOne,
The the bottom of the upper receiver is a guiding surface for the mag-release transfer bar so if you are actually it with the lower receiver separated from the upper receiver it will not keep the transfer bar in proper alignment.  Please test it only with the receivers assembled together.  This is a part of the design and not a failure of the mechanism.  If you are having issues with it installed on the upper receiver then it has a problem.

Thanks

Nick


Never tried it with them separated, other than on the original lower I had AFTER the tab was broken. Even then it was only to take better pictures of the issue.

The replacement lower, that is on the rifle that is on its way back to me, was exhibiting the same issue during my single range trip. Though the retaining tab was still in one piece.
Assuming the rifle is otherwise working when I receive it, I'll see if I can determine what is causing it to slip free.

When I say its slipping free, its slipping forward towards the muzzle. Thus trapping the catch in the out position.

I will say, I've handled three lowers at this point. My original, my replacement, and the shipping error rifle. My original was by far the "heaviest". The replacement was slightly better and has improved marginally with use, though still not anywhere near what I'd consider serviceable. The shipping error was magnitudes better than the other two straight out of the box.
Its to the point I wish I only had the rear release if it meant that the weight would be reduced.


Also, thanks for joining in on the conversation.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:30:59 PM by CabbitOne » Logged
Blackandwhiteknight
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« Reply #156 on: June 14, 2018, 12:46:54 PM »

...than shooting it like you want to fight with it.

What I think you meant to say was, "...than shooting it as *if* you had to fight with it."

Words can be twisted out of context to imply things that you did not mean to say. No good person ever "wants to fight," but every responsible person should train to have the capacity to defend their family, friends, and neighbors if threatened.

Part of our responsibility to the firearms culture is to portray our peaceful intentions clearly and not allow gun grabbing globalists to spin doctor our image into a bunch of "Dirty Harry/Death Wish" crazy vigilantes spoiling for a fight.


 Wanting the best tool for the job is what I was referring to.  Always on the search for a better mouse trap.  I agree with your observation, thank you for clarifying.
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Sawdustshot
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« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2018, 09:19:45 AM »

That's sort of harsh, given the human propensity to publicly complain about every little thing at least a magnitude of times more than compliment.  Given the absolutely negative environment here and over at ARFcom, the two most public forums for discussion, I'm not surprised that people who have positive things to say are either keeping quiet or just left.

I'm not granting absolution to DT for the issues, just commenting on human nature. 
Eh, maybe. I would expect the reports here or anywhere with established users to be more representative than just a pile of reviews. The relative consistency of reported issues also suggests that something is amiss in the design or manufacture.  I would still like one, assuming the teething issues get ironed out.
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« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2018, 07:38:57 PM »

That's sort of harsh, given the human propensity to publicly complain about every little thing at least a magnitude of times more than compliment.  Given the absolutely negative environment here and over at ARFcom, the two most public forums for discussion, I'm not surprised that people who have positive things to say are either keeping quiet or just left.

I'm not granting absolution to DT for the issues, just commenting on human nature. 
Eh, maybe. I would expect the reports here or anywhere with established users to be more representative than just a pile of reviews. The relative consistency of reported issues also suggests that something is amiss in the design or manufacture.  I would still like one, assuming the teething issues get ironed out.

I've been involved with customer relations in one form or another for over 30 years and the one constant is that people will complain more than they will praise, and of those who complain, "experts", enthusiasts, people who may never have used the product but want to dogpile, and skeptics tend to complain the loudest.  I'm not passing judgment on anyone who has complained as the issues appear quite valid, nor am I branding anyone with those labels, I'm just relating my experience over three decades of dealing with the public.

Also, on this forum and ARFcom, it is a very hostile environment if you support or praise the MDR.

Couple all that together and anyone who isn't a regular contributor or doesn't mind the flack from posting something positive probably won't bother.  I know that when I finally shoot mine that other than a "they work/don't work" comment, I probably won't say much more because I'm tired of the negativity.
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« Reply #159 on: June 15, 2018, 10:17:58 PM »

Received my rifle back today. Had a bit of a chuckle as it was packaged in a Palmetto State Armory box. This time it still had its service tag attached and in the box was a letter from another customer talking about a barrel (not MDR) being sent in for some work. As I'm typing this, I'm looking over at the box and realized I never checked the outside paperwork... maybe more goodies to be found.

Anyways, broke down my rifle and looked everything over because for once I actually had some time. Few random thoughts before I head to the range tomorrow.

The lower's fit to the upper is atrocious. It is having to flex (somewhat) slightly for all three pins to be engaged. Due to this overly tight fit I have developed a patent pending (/sarcasm) DT MDR Take Down Pin Tool. Only one in the world, that I know of, and is available for purchase at the low low one time price of $3500!

Seriously, I threw this together out of parts I had lying around and it makes it about a million times easier to remove the pins and re-install them. MDR Range kit needs one of these, a rod for tapping stuck cases, and a torque wrench.
Back to the fit; With the front two pins installed I have to press the upper receiver down towards the lower while siamotainously pushing the buttplate towards the muzzle. On top of this, because the fit is so "tight" its possible for the pin to enter the rear trunnion and then strike the inside of the upper receiver due to cant and open space.

I suspect I know (one of?) the reason(s) the front magazine releases are so "heavy" and break in. Can't tell more without disassembly, and I'm not willing to go that far on a gun I haven't even confirmed function on. It looks like the magazine release buttons are rubbing against the top side of the lower receiver internally. In my picture you might be able to see some flaring where the polymer lower (internally) meets the magazine release buttons. This might explain or contribute to why the fronts are "heavy" and the rear seems better.

^ not sure why it rotated after being uploaded, but I don't care enough right now to try to fix it

All of the issues, which I could check at home, that I sent the MDR in for service seem to be resolved. So theres that at least.

In the ask me anything thread someone asked about the drop safety aspect of the MDR. The response thus far was the rifle is safe if the gun is on safe. Looking at my lower, I wonder how much force it would take to jar components in the trigger group separate from the trigger and trigger bar. (The trigger bar only acts upon the trigger group, it does not secure it. The trigger and trigger bar, however, are secured by the safety.)

Also, CBM if you're reading this you should totally respond to my email!  Tongue


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« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 10:27:52 PM by CabbitOne » Logged
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