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Author Topic: First range trip  (Read 9902 times)
EWTHeckman
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« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2018, 12:03:03 PM »

I just received the following in-depth response from Joe Thielen, Hornady Manufacturing ---


In other words, the PRC produces higher pressures and higher bolt thrust to propel the same bullet as 6.5 Creedmoor at a slightly slower velocity. (Discovered by comparing the two loads with the same bullets on Hornady's site.) That seems like a step backwards from the 6.5 Creedmoor. What exactly is the problem this cartridge supposed to solve?
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thehun
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« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2018, 12:21:09 PM »

One of the things that makes the concept of the MDR so appealing to me and many others is the possibility of a one-gun solution that can go from CQB to DMR roles without missing a beat.

This is one of the things that I really like about the MDR's modularity:  I can have one base platform and either have multiple examples dedicated to different tasks or one with multiple conversions, and cover all bases from AQD (Apartment Quarters Defense), to self defense, to heavier self defense rifle, to credible deer hunting rifle/survival rifle, to long range precision rifle, and never have to worry about changing the manual of arms.

From a police issue perspective, I can see where this would be attractive to help reduce training costs as well as ensure that one training evolution will qualify everyone in the department on the longarms used (other than shotguns, but I think it would be very cool for a MDS...are you listing, Desert Tech?).

I just don't see police departments jumping to MDRs though...it would actually dramatically increase costs involved compared to ARs from Colt and others...especially in the US where every department carries an AR style rifle...the only rifle besides a typical AR that has made any real headway in police units is the Hk416...and only in SWAT teams @ big departments with big budgets. Most SWAT units just opt for a 10.5" shorty Colt with Aimpoints for $1000 out the door...heck...some even use their own personal ARs that they qual'd with because departments can't afford nice rifles.

Unless DT sponsors a police department for marketing purposes to use their products...it won't be a mainstream option among police departments...FN does the same thing with their local PDs and CZ does it with KCPD with the BREN and Scorpion.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 12:23:31 PM by thehun » Logged
SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2018, 12:37:50 PM »

. . . In other words, the PRC produces higher pressures and higher bolt thrust to propel the same bullet as 6.5 Creedmoor at a slightly slower velocity. (Discovered by comparing the two loads with the same bullets on Hornady's site.) That seems like a step backwards from the 6.5 Creedmoor. What exactly is the problem this cartridge supposed to solve?

6.5 Creedmoor 147-gr ELD Match, 2695 fps
(https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6.5-creedmoor-147-gr-eld-match#1/)

6.5 PRC 147-gr ELD Match, 2910 fps
(https://hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6.5-prc-147-gr-eld-match#1/)
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2018, 01:04:03 PM »

. . . 1. It wont fit in the MDR, the barrel extension geometry wont allow it. . . .






Please explain.




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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2018, 01:44:38 PM »


Oops. You're right. I misread the numbers. I had looked at the 143 gr loads (which are easily the most accurate load out of my X-Bolt). The Creedmoor is 2,700 FPS vs. the PRC's 2,960 FPS. Somehow I had managed to read that 2,960 as 2, 660.

 Shocked

Still, the 6.5 Creedmoor has fantastic legs, to the point I wonder why the PRC is worth bothering about, especially given the PRC's larger case size (2.030 vs. 1.920 length, .532 vs .743 diameter), making it harder to fit into existing actions.
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Blackandwhiteknight
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« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2018, 01:59:29 PM »

Here's the exact military requirements from the US Army for the M110.  This is what a modern 7.62mm military rifle must be capable of to be considered valid.  The US military only uses 7.62x51mm weapons as sniper/ DMR rifles, or LMGs.  2-3 MOA blaster is not a valid function of a 7.62mm, 21st century Military rifle. A .308/7.62 rifle that can't consistently pull 1 MOA with M118LR /168GMM will get nowhere near a US military contract of any kind.

According to performance specification (MIL-PRF-32316 (AR) w/AMENDMENT 1, 5 October 2009):

    3.4.1.1.1 Accuracy. The distance between the mean point of impact of each shot group, both unsuppressed and suppressed, shall be not greater than 1.1 inches at 300 feet.

    3.4.1.1.2 Dispersion. The average mean radius (AMR) (see 6.11), of each shot group shall be not greater than to 0.68 inches at 300 feet. All targets shall be fired on using M118LR ammunition or equivalent, using five (5) round groups.


I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this.  The MDR was never presented as a "SASS-type" rifle and since its inception, DT has called it a "battle rifle" that was MOA capable.  Lavish the same attention to the MDR as Knight's does to the M110, and I think you'd see similar or better results.

The context is pretty obvious.  Several derogatory posts claiming accuracy is not relevant, so any of their pet bullpups are just as good.  In a MDR forum the context of accuracy is a .308 rifle. Because the MDR is first a .308 frame rifle.  Any discussion of the relevance of a .308 rifle for "combat" or military service directly rests on it's accuracy.  Most specifically the 1 MOA mark, which the US army recognized in their requirements for the M110.  That's what a .308 does in combat these days. Particularly excelling at the DMR role in Urban environments given the shorter ranges of engagements.  Given the necessary love, by way of quality parts the MDR could easily give the M110 a run for its money, in a much more compact package. Not to mention you could issue both the Sniper and spotter the same weapon, and just change the spotters out to 5.56mm when necessary (instead of the current M4).  The MDR certainly looks capable of filling the DMR roll.  With hits out to 1200 with the 6.5 Creed, the proof is in the pudding. Hopefully soon the barrels.  Wink Wink  See what I did there? Grin
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coldboremiracle
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« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2018, 02:38:39 PM »

. . . 1. It wont fit in the MDR, the barrel extension geometry wont allow it. . . .


Please explain.

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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2018, 02:55:48 PM »

. . . Still, the 6.5 Creedmoor has fantastic legs, to the point I wonder why the PRC is worth bothering about, . . .

EWTHeckman,

Consider the titles of these two articles:

Innovation in the gun industry (http://innovationtrail.org/post/innovation-gun-industry);

Innovation in the American Firearms Industry (https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2009/10/15/innovation-in-the-american-firearms-industry/).

Following a review of the above articles, the thought that occurs to this reader is that the title of both should be preceded by, Lack of. Indeed, from my perspective, I think that the gun industry, as a whole, is stuck in the 20th Century. I'm comfortable, here, in our Bullpup Forum, because I believe Bullpups represent the future of firearms technology. Not surprisingly, I'm anxious to move ahead. And, from where I stand, I see the Desert Tech MDR as the most promising overall design to that end.

I think it's fair to state that other firearms manufacturers recognize the MDR for what it is: a giant step in the right direction. Therefore, I'm discouraged that this forward-thinking design doesn't allow for expanding its cartridge list to include short-action magnum cartridges.
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thehun
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« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2018, 04:35:02 PM »

In DT's defense...they never promised other intermediate, niche short-action cartridge compatibility...

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rtp
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« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2018, 05:45:12 PM »

. . . 1. It wont fit in the MDR, the barrel extension geometry wont allow it. . . .


Please explain.



Good answer!  Grin Grin
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coldboremiracle
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« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2018, 05:46:22 PM »

I'm discouraged that this forward-thinking design doesn't allow for expanding its cartridge list to include short-action magnum cartridges.
How many short action magnum MDR's do you think DT would sell?

I'm a barrel whore, and I still wouldn't get one, even at a steep discount, because you still have to feed it. 30-40$ worth of ammunition per magazine? No thank you.
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coldboremiracle
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« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2018, 05:47:23 PM »

Good answer!  Grin Grin
I thought so, sometimes words aren't enough.
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rtp
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« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2018, 06:42:56 PM »

I'm discouraged that this forward-thinking design doesn't allow for expanding its cartridge list to include short-action magnum cartridges.
How many short action magnum MDR's do you think DT would sell?

I'm a barrel whore, and I still wouldn't get one, even at a steep discount, because you still have to feed it. 30-40$ worth of ammunition per magazine? No thank you.

You'll have to excuse S&S.  He's used to asking random people to do things he wants, and when there's an actually an option for not only a bullpup .308, but also 6.5CM, he still wants the Grendel + misc. wildcat cartridges.   Grin

Next up: .50 cal?  Grin
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2018, 07:22:43 PM »

I think it's fair to state that other firearms manufacturers recognize the MDR for what it is: a giant step in the right direction. Therefore, I'm discouraged that this forward-thinking design doesn't allow for expanding its cartridge list to include short-action magnum cartridges.

There's a joke that has more than a bit of truth in it; fifty percent of the price of any modern weapons system will cover 85% of its capabilities, while the other fifty percent covers the last 15% of the specification.  If DT had made the MDR capable of handling a barrel that could accommodate a magnum diameter cartridge like the 6.5PCR, then the weight would have gone up even more, the cost would have gone up, and the whole design would have been that much larger and beefier. 

While the 6.5PCR looks like a good cartridge, I don't think there is much consumer interest in adding that 50% cost for 15% capability, especially when popular (and affordable) options such as the 6.5 Creedmore are available.  I plan on eventually buying a Falkor Petra, but have backed off wanting it in .300 Norma Magnum after realizing that if I fired 150 rounds, I'd have just spent a car payment's worth of ammo.
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Kurt
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« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2018, 09:55:44 PM »

I think it's fair to state that other firearms manufacturers recognize the MDR for what it is: a giant step in the right direction. Therefore, I'm discouraged that this forward-thinking design doesn't allow for expanding its cartridge list to include short-action magnum cartridges.

There's a joke that has more than a bit of truth in it; fifty percent of the price of any modern weapons system will cover 85% of its capabilities, while the other fifty percent covers the last 15% of the specification.  If DT had made the MDR capable of handling a barrel that could accommodate a magnum diameter cartridge like the 6.5PCR, then the weight would have gone up even more, the cost would have gone up, and the whole design would have been that much larger and beefier. 

While the 6.5PCR looks like a good cartridge, I don't think there is much consumer interest in adding that 50% cost for 15% capability, especially when popular (and affordable) options such as the 6.5 Creedmore are available.  I plan on eventually buying a Falkor Petra, but have backed off wanting it in .300 Norma Magnum after realizing that if I fired 150 rounds, I'd have just spent a car payment's worth of ammo.

I don't see the advantage of the 6.5 PCR over the 6.5 CM. Hell, I barely think 6.5 CM is really that much better than .308 other than competition. Personally, I want the extra range that the 6.5 CM doesn't offer, I'm going up to the .338 LM.
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ES Tactical
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« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2018, 10:21:34 PM »

I think it's fair to state that other firearms manufacturers recognize the MDR for what it is: a giant step in the right direction. Therefore, I'm discouraged that this forward-thinking design doesn't allow for expanding its cartridge list to include short-action magnum cartridges.

There's a joke that has more than a bit of truth in it; fifty percent of the price of any modern weapons system will cover 85% of its capabilities, while the other fifty percent covers the last 15% of the specification.  If DT had made the MDR capable of handling a barrel that could accommodate a magnum diameter cartridge like the 6.5PCR, then the weight would have gone up even more, the cost would have gone up, and the whole design would have been that much larger and beefier. 

While the 6.5PCR looks like a good cartridge, I don't think there is much consumer interest in adding that 50% cost for 15% capability, especially when popular (and affordable) options such as the 6.5 Creedmore are available.  I plan on eventually buying a Falkor Petra, but have backed off wanting it in .300 Norma Magnum after realizing that if I fired 150 rounds, I'd have just spent a car payment's worth of ammo.

I don't see the advantage of the 6.5 PCR over the 6.5 CM. Hell, I barely think 6.5 CM is really that much better than .308 other than competition. Personally, I want the extra range that the 6.5 CM doesn't offer, I'm going up to the .338 LM.
338 LM won't fit in the MDR either Wink

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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whiskey91lima
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« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2018, 11:12:39 PM »

I think it's fair to state that other firearms manufacturers recognize the MDR for what it is: a giant step in the right direction. Therefore, I'm discouraged that this forward-thinking design doesn't allow for expanding its cartridge list to include short-action magnum cartridges.

There's a joke that has more than a bit of truth in it; fifty percent of the price of any modern weapons system will cover 85% of its capabilities, while the other fifty percent covers the last 15% of the specification.  If DT had made the MDR capable of handling a barrel that could accommodate a magnum diameter cartridge like the 6.5PCR, then the weight would have gone up even more, the cost would have gone up, and the whole design would have been that much larger and beefier. 

While the 6.5PCR looks like a good cartridge, I don't think there is much consumer interest in adding that 50% cost for 15% capability, especially when popular (and affordable) options such as the 6.5 Creedmore are available.  I plan on eventually buying a Falkor Petra, but have backed off wanting it in .300 Norma Magnum after realizing that if I fired 150 rounds, I'd have just spent a car payment's worth of ammo.

I don't see the advantage of the 6.5 PCR over the 6.5 CM. Hell, I barely think 6.5 CM is really that much better than .308 other than competition. Personally, I want the extra range that the 6.5 CM doesn't offer, I'm going up to the .338 LM.
338 LM won't fit in the MDR either Wink

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



Absolutely, but I wouldn't be building a rifle for that use as a semi-auto.
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2018, 03:29:22 AM »

. . . 1. It wont fit in the MDR, the barrel extension geometry wont allow it. . . .


Please explain.



Now, it's clear that the ".532" in the upper-half of your diagram refers to the maximum diameter of the Hornady 6.5 PRC cartridge case. What's not clear, however, is whether the ".479" in the lower-half of your diagram refers to the rear diameter of the chamber (assuming it to be for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge), or the distance between opposing tapered lug tips at the rear of the Barrel Extension. Please clarify. Also, what is the outside diameter of the MDR Barrel Extension used for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge.
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coldboremiracle
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« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2018, 09:49:27 AM »

Now, it's clear that the ".532" in the upper-half of your diagram refers to the maximum diameter of the Hornady 6.5 PRC cartridge case. What's not clear, however, is whether the ".479" in the lower-half of your diagram refers to the rear diameter of the chamber (assuming it to be for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge), or the distance between opposing tapered lug tips at the rear of the Barrel Extension. Please clarify. Also, what is the outside diameter of the MDR Barrel Extension used for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge.

This is very long and drawn out way to get dimensions and specs on the barrel extension, you could of just asked  Roll Eyes
The .479 is the maximum diameter of anything you want to push into the breach of the MDR barrel without cutting into the barrel extension or its support ring.
The OD of the extension is 1.025"
I know it hurts Louis, but getting some oddball magnum caliber in the MDR isn't feasible, unless it is is less than .479" X 2.8". Points for imagination though Wink
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« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2018, 06:12:24 PM »

Update: So other than fedex being utterly confusing and giving me three different answers on the arrival things have gone well win the rma. I'll assume it arrived yesterday afternoon since after the debacle with fedex I called DT and asked them to let me know when or if it arrived. So as the message they had received it came in that afternoon I think it's safe to assume that as the arrival time. This afternoon I received a message with a tracking number so seems the lower is already on it's way back and should be here on the 22nd. No word on what was done to it yet will keep y'all in the loop as before.
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What ever happened to Democrat meaning drunken partying and pistol duels on the white house lawn, beating your would be assassin so senseless your security has to protect them from you, and one of your only two regrets is that you didn't kill your own vice president and running mate.
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