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Author Topic: Tavor 7. So when?  (Read 27287 times)
thehun
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« Reply #140 on: October 05, 2018, 03:21:01 PM »

So I contacted IWI about the T7.

They simply just stated that the production model did not meet their accuracy goal...they stated right now there is not a release date yet to announce.

Sad

At least they aren't releasing the product until it meets their quality standards.
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MajorKong
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« Reply #141 on: October 05, 2018, 09:53:59 PM »

So I contacted IWI about the T7.

They simply just stated that the production model did not meet their accuracy goal...they stated right now there is not a release date yet to announce.

Sad

At least they aren't releasing the product until it meets their quality standards.

I don't care if the don't release till 2019 so long as it is right when they do release it. 
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boscoman
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« Reply #142 on: October 05, 2018, 10:44:44 PM »

A rep told me that all the barrels went back to Israel.
Hopefully will be solved quickly. Not holding my breath, but hoping both soon & accurate.
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thehun
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« Reply #143 on: October 06, 2018, 09:08:35 AM »

A rep told me that all the barrels went back to Israel.
Hopefully will be solved quickly. Not holding my breath, but hoping both soon & accurate.

I bet it will be Q1-2019
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Potss
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« Reply #144 on: October 06, 2018, 10:12:13 AM »

Going to say the same s*** I said about the MDR; don't release until ready.  I don't care if that is three years from now.  Maybe IWI will learn from the dumpster-fire that is the MDR release and actually hold off till they are really good to go.
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RebellionOnIce
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« Reply #145 on: October 06, 2018, 10:50:50 AM »

Yep, don't release them until they are good to do but how does this happen?

 I'm starting to think IWI isn't the company I thought they were. With the R&D, engineering, machining, testing and all that goes into it and then ship them out when they don't shoot right baffles me.

The projectile coming out the barrel and hitting a place on the target is a pretty friggen important characteristic of a rifle and they missed this? And now on their dime they are disassembling them to send all the barrels back to Israel to be reworked to send them back again...SMH!



 
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thehun
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« Reply #146 on: October 06, 2018, 10:55:37 AM »



They didn't release the rifles first of all...the accuracy problem was caught BEFORE the rifles were released to the public. To me, that is the perfect resemblance of a good final QC check on their end.  

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boscoman
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« Reply #147 on: October 06, 2018, 04:40:10 PM »

Going to say the same s*** I said about the MDR; don't release until ready.  I don't care if that is three years from now.  Maybe IWI will learn from the dumpster-fire that is the MDR release and actually hold off till they are really good to go.

I was told that this will never happen again. A stated to me, "we won't announce anymore firearms until they are ready to be released in the future.". This was in reference to both the 7 & the Masada.
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"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Courage is not a lack of fear, but one's ability to overcome it
boscoman
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« Reply #148 on: October 06, 2018, 04:42:13 PM »



They didn't release the rifles first of all...the accuracy problem was caught BEFORE the rifles were released to the public. To me, that is the perfect resemblance of a good final QC check on their end.  



And they were upfront about it.
I'm not happy with the wait. I don't deal well with delayed gratification, but have no say or power over this. So will sit back & wait for them to get it right & delivery me a rifle that will meet my expectations.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 08:10:11 PM by boscoman » Logged

"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night, only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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cricman
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« Reply #149 on: October 07, 2018, 01:30:11 AM »

Not sure I understand the approach of sending all the barrels back to Israel, if that is indeed the case.  I assume that they uncovered the source of the lack of accuracy as strictly a "barrel" problem.  I am definitely curious as to how they came to that conclusion.  Are they sending any receivers with them to assemble and test as a system, or do Tavor 7 rifles exist in Israel?  Are they going to send a sample set back to the U.S. for reassembly and testing before they "re-work" the whole lot?  What are they doing in Israel that can't be done in North America?  Definitely an interesting QA/QC/Testing model.  I look forward to the finished product.  It looks like I have another 6-8 months to save for a Tavor 7.

cricman
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thehun
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« Reply #150 on: October 07, 2018, 09:19:24 AM »

How could they fix barrels and receivers in the US?

IWI US is not setup for that type of work here...all the barreled action components and receivers are made in Isreal (they might now make the receivers in the US).

IWI US simply gets the non-US parts from Isreal and assembles them here in the US with 922r components. Their QC/QA in the US actually double checks Isreal's work just in case something was missed...in this case...it worked.

From nuggets here and there that I have heard, the problem was with the chrome lining. Once etched...there is nothing you can do to a barrel to fix bad chroming. When I contacted IWI...the rep was not happy at all this delay has happened. Nor am I. BUT....I would rather have this delay vs receiving a bad product and ruin my honeymoon experience with the platform.

If a new product gets bad press right off the bat (like the MDR) ... it is kind of hard for that platform to gain tractions ... took XCR-L what....almost 8 years to do it (only reason RobArms didnt go under was because of the Canadian laws saving their grass).

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TNC
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« Reply #151 on: October 07, 2018, 06:25:10 PM »

For civilian use, even hard use, I wish they'd just nitride barrels that aren't going to be full auto.  Chrome lining usually...I say usually...degrades accuracy to some degree, and IMO just isn't necessary or beneficial in anything less than actual battlefield conditions and full auto.  Chrome lining may increase barrel a little bit, but the jury may not be totally in on its comparison to nitride.
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thehun
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« Reply #152 on: October 07, 2018, 08:23:11 PM »

^^^ 100% agree ^^^

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HBeretta
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« Reply #153 on: October 08, 2018, 12:33:38 PM »

i was a little thrown off by the statement of accuracy from iwi US..."iwi level of accuracy..."?  tavors have never been known for accuracy.  i guess they were really gunning for moa, pun intended.  if they were getting 2-3 with ball then i would've been fine with that.  OR, were they really missing the broad side of a barn with it?  in any case, i hope we see it sooner than later.

unrelated, even their masada pistol is missing in action after implying a 1st qtr 2018 release. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 01:14:12 PM by HBeretta » Logged
gunsforfun
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« Reply #154 on: October 09, 2018, 08:57:43 AM »

I think the ultimate solution to accuracy is that IWI US must float the barrel of the Tavor 7.

The X95 can get away without a floated barrel because the caliber is only 5.56.

But I would be very surprised if that would work for the 7.62.

Perhaps the delay is them trying to figure out how to float that barrel.
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adoloris
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« Reply #155 on: October 09, 2018, 02:14:14 PM »

IWI should be able to deliver mass-produced chrome-lined barrels that attain acceptable battle accuracy ( 2.5-3 MOA ) as they have in the past. The first batch of rifle barrels did not. IWI seems to think the problem lies in the chrome-lining process. Perhaps this issue was encountered with other IWI produced rifles in the past and successfully corrected. I hope that is the case here with the T7. The US civilian market has never before been the initial release market for an IWI rifle that is intended as a tactical/battle rifle with accuracy capability equal to the intended battle ammunition ( M80 ). I hope that IWI tweaks the chroming process to produce many more acceptable barrels like the good ones found in the first batch tested recently.
Free floating and nitride are unfamiliar processes to IWI bullpup production and would require much R&D to implement this late in the production cycle.
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thehun
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« Reply #156 on: October 09, 2018, 04:46:52 PM »

Agreed.

Their design is designed not to be free floated and I do not think it will happen.

IWI's mission, even if it is released to the civilian market first, is to be a reliable rifle with battle accuracy (meaning per the NATO spec of said cartridge selected for the platform).
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Potss
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« Reply #157 on: October 10, 2018, 12:40:07 PM »

They (IWI) should license or contract Criterion if they want the least f***ed chrome lining.  Criterion do it best by far.  And nitriding is beyond not-hard to do, plenty of folks in the US are now capable of even doing Bartleins and not f***ing up the heat treat.  Plenty of people they could outsource or license, H&M being one of the leaders.  This could be done tomorrow, basically no interruption in design or supply stream outside of a small chunk of time.

Now free float, that is another story and I largely agree that we are way late into the design cycle for that.  Maybe release a "DMR" revision or something at some point in the future, but I don't see them A.) being able to make an easy and cheap design change to free float or B.) scrapping everything they have at this moment and going back to the drawing board to include free float.  As much as I might wish for option B, it is extraordinarily unlikely.

As we've seen with the MDR, accuracy doesn't mean s*** if it isn't reliable, especially in this market segment.  The only reason you pay the weight, accuracy, trigger, and ergo cost of a bullpup over a traditional rifle is to have something capable of CQB which 98% of the time means (at least preparing for) actual serious use.  If my priority is accuracy, why would I pay $2600 for an MDR when that amount could build me an AR10 that would be 2-3x as accurate, lighter, and more reliable?  And so on.  BUT  I will also say that there is no reason (beyond cost) that a bullpup cannot be designed to attain proper modern levels of accuracy (<1.5moa, and really <1moa), and when stepping up to 7.62x51/.308 that should be a large priority given the capabilities of the round.  To put it another way, 2moa at 800y (about the max terminal effective range of LR 308) is just about 16in, or a little more than double the size of most vital areas on two or four legs.  Whereas, 1moa is just around 8in, the difference is massive.  Not that everyone takes 800y shots at living things, but the capability of the platform being able to do so with the proper ammo greatly changes that cost/benefit when deciding if a Tavor 7 is worth it over an SBR or something similar.
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thehun
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« Reply #158 on: October 10, 2018, 02:07:04 PM »

Agree with you points...but honestly...me personally, if I am going to reach out beyond 500-600 meters...I am grabbing a bolt gun.

My rule regarding 7.62x51 platforms...as long as the weapon hits what M80 ball was designed to hit...I am happy...which is 1.6-2MOA.

I like bullpups because they are short with a regular size barrel while not having to mess with the NFA rules...to me that is a huge benefit.


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adoloris
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« Reply #159 on: October 10, 2018, 02:13:22 PM »

Supply chain logistics costs and cost of outsourced barrel lining would blow the T7 price point into outer space! This barrel lining problem will have to be solved in house or the T7 becomes unobtanium as an affordable mass produced battle weapon for most shooters and military.
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