Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 12, 2017, 07:51:33 PM
Home Home Help Calendar Login Register
News:

Please support BullpupForum.com sponsors!!
. . . Midwest Industries . . . BullpupArmory.com . . . Shooting Sight . . . BullpupUnlimited.com . . . Homeland Guns . . . . . . . . . . . . AB Arms . . . GallowayPrecision.com . . . K & M Arms . . . . . . Geissele Automatics
+  BULLPUP FORUM
|-+  Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire)
| |-+  IWI Tavor & X-95
| | |-+  Anyone have luck with hard primers?
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Anyone have luck with hard primers?  (Read 581 times)
SteveD
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« on: December 01, 2017, 05:44:53 AM »

Got alot of ammo with hard primers and its not like I can get an enhanced firing pin for the tavor. Anyone have luck modifying their existing bcg/firing pin to ensure reliable ignition? Maybe cut some of the spring coils off so it has less resistance? Shave off some of the firing pin so it can strike it a little further?
Logged
xdmikey
.
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 340


« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 07:42:17 AM »

I reload so I don't have that issue but I'm interested in knowing the brands that have hard primers.

Thanks
Logged
SteveG75
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 65


« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 06:45:56 PM »

What ammo have you had issues with. My TAVOR has eaten everything I have thrown at it. I even use it to fire rounds that don't go off in my bolt gun (Mil spec 5.56 ammo in my Mossberg MVP which has a 5.56 chamber but does not like hard primers).
Logged
SteveD
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2017, 07:54:02 PM »

Its golden tiger that used russian hard primers. They had a bad batch that I capitalized on for around 16cents a round.
Logged
Rastoff
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 266



WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 10:54:04 PM »

How many light strikes have you had? I guess you could say dented primers with no ignition.
Logged

Remember, you can post here because they died over there.
Freedom isn't free.
SteveD
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 10:57:29 PM »

How many light strikes have you had? I guess you could say dented primers with no ignition.

Its basically 50 50 whether its a light primer strike or it has positive ignition. Great for malfunction practice. Grin
Logged
JRKrejsa
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 35


« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 08:15:04 AM »

Iíve never had an issue with hard primers.  Just the opposite, primers breaking, leaving tiny metal fragments all over, some times causing malfunctions.
Logged
Rastoff
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 266



WWW
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2017, 02:25:50 AM »

How many light strikes have you had? I guess you could say dented primers with no ignition.

Its basically 50 50 whether its a light primer strike or it has positive ignition. Great for malfunction practice. Grin
OK, the first thing I would do is disassemble the bolt and make sure the firing pin hole and firing pin are clean. I've seen it many times in other guns where the movement of the firing pin is ******ed because of dirt. This is more common than issues from hard primers.

Not questioning you, just something to check.
Logged

Remember, you can post here because they died over there.
Freedom isn't free.
SteveD
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 02:28:22 AM »

I realize by design of the firing pin if I were to try and achieve a certain protrusion it would require that I shave off multiple areas from the firing pin and maybe cut the spring coil. I don't think it's worth it anymore...I did a very rough firing pin protrusion measurement and it was .0315. My AR that works with this specific ammo needed at least around .0440
Logged
Rastoff
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 266



WWW
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 02:33:45 AM »

I wouldn't modify the firing pin. I don't think this is a common problem with the Tavor SAR or X95.
Logged

Remember, you can post here because they died over there.
Freedom isn't free.
SteveD
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 02:42:11 AM »

This lot of ammo specifically needs a longer firing pin and maybe a stronger hammer spring. Easily achieved in the AR15 platform but not here.
Logged
ShootingSight
.
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 560



WWW
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 10:51:27 AM »

The ShootingSight Tav-D actually uses a modified Wolff AR Extra-Power hammer spring, primarily to achieve a fast lock-time, but also to give maximum ignition energy.  I test fire every trigger with 3 different rounds, one commercial, one NATO (which should have hard primers), and one Wolf (just to mix in the crap), exactly to assure I do get good ignition on all sorts of primers.

I have had two customers over the years who were getting light strikes.  When they sent in the triggers and I looked closely at them, I saw a tiny shiny spot (less than the head of a pin) on the left leading face/edge of the hammer, just beneath where the bifurcation is.  Seems there is an area in the upper where something can stick out, and the hammer was hitting it while swinging, robbing it of power and causing light strikes.  I now touch all the hammer edges on a belt sander to get rid of the sharp edge on the leading side of the hammer, in order to prevent this.  I never did find out what the hammer was hitting, but the fact that only two people had the problem makes me think it was either a tolerance issue, or something sticking into the hammer swing path that wasn't supposed to be there.  As a funny aside, I now get the occasional complaint from people where they see the edge that I rounded off with the belt sander and assume it is a machining defect.

Anyhow, long story short: look closely at your hammer under a good light with a magnifier.  If it is hitting something during the swing, it will leave a mark that you ought to be able to see through the parkerized finish.

The only other issue I have ever heard were the old Timney triggers.  However they did a recall/redesign, and I have not heard of that problem in years, so I assume it is fixed.  You don't have an old Timney, do you?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 10:54:59 AM by ShootingSight » Logged

Art Neergaard
ShootingSight LLC
www.shootingsight.com
shootingsight@fioptics.com
513-702-4879
SteveD
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 02:44:32 PM »

No I use a Geissele. The issue I see is that if an AR has to use an enhance firing pin that increases the firing pin protrusion by 0.15, I don't think I can achieve the same thing in the Tavor. No matter how strong the hammer is I don't think it can ignite reliably the Russian Mil spec hard primer.
Logged
cciman
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 03:08:36 PM »



I have an extra Shooting Sight TAV-D, red anodized aluminum housing, NEW for sale (see my post)

It will fix ALL your light strike problems instantly.  No modding of the firing pin needed.



No I use a Geissele. The issue I see is that if an AR has to use an enhance firing pin that increases the firing pin protrusion by 0.15, I don't think I can achieve the same thing in the Tavor. No matter how strong the hammer is I don't think it can ignite reliably the Russian Mil spec hard primer.
Logged
SteveD
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 04:55:26 PM »

Um, how? Did you not even read my posts? Firing pin doesn't even protrude enough, let alone it is housed by a spring that reduces the amount of force it strikes the primer with. Trying to get a quick sale, aren't you?


I have an extra Shooting Sight TAV-D, red anodized aluminum housing, NEW for sale (see my post)

It will fix ALL your light strike problems instantly.  No modding of the firing pin needed.



No I use a Geissele. The issue I see is that if an AR has to use an enhance firing pin that increases the firing pin protrusion by 0.15, I don't think I can achieve the same thing in the Tavor. No matter how strong the hammer is I don't think it can ignite reliably the Russian Mil spec hard primer.
Logged
Leonitus
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 239



« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 05:45:53 PM »

The only issues Iíve had were attributed to primers that werenít seated.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:42:30 AM by Leonitus » Logged
cciman
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 05:50:53 PM »

Um, how? Did you not even read my posts? Firing pin doesn't even protrude enough, let alone it is housed by a spring that reduces the amount of force it strikes the primer with. Trying to get a quick sale, aren't you?


I have an extra Shooting Sight TAV-D, red anodized aluminum housing, NEW for sale (see my post)

It will fix ALL your light strike problems instantly.  No modding of the firing pin needed.

Yes, but the FP protrusion has nothing to do with your troubles IMO, since there are statistically plenty of factory TAVORs out there, including those in the IDF, that do not share your symptoms.  

Perhaps you are looking in the wrong direction?  Just a subtle, friendly suggestion.  I had your same trigger with the same issues- but mine was 50-80% failure to ignite.  I'll give you one guess how that was fixed.


Even with the factory setup and the FP spring in place, if you drop the bolt, you will indent the primer.  That should tell you that the FP travel is sufficient, but the energy is not.









No I use a Geissele. The issue I see is that if an AR has to use an enhance firing pin that increases the firing pin protrusion by 0.15, I don't think I can achieve the same thing in the Tavor. No matter how strong the hammer is I don't think it can ignite reliably the Russian Mil spec hard primer.
Logged
cciman
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2017, 05:56:38 PM »

somehow my reply got mis-formatted:


Perhaps you are looking in the wrong direction?  Just a subtle, friendly suggestion.  I had your same trigger with the same "hard primer" issues- but mine was 50-80% failure to ignite.  I'll give you one guess how that was fixed.


Even with the factory setup and the FP spring in place, if you drop the bolt, you will indent the primer.  That should tell you that the FP travel is sufficient, but the energy is not.
Logged
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,048


« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 06:30:51 PM »

Its golden tiger that used russian hard primers. They had a bad batch that I capitalized on for around 16cents a round.

Actually, I believe that the primers are either set in too deep, or the headspace is incorrect on that batch of ammo.  There are a few guys that claim the shoulder/headspace on that ammo is incorrect and out of spec.

Don't modify your gun to shoot ammo that is out of spec.

I've shot Tula, Barnel, Wolf, and all that crap ammo through my Tavor with no Issue.  If the ammo is in spec, your gun will shoot it.
Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,048


« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2017, 06:36:56 PM »

I would suggest to Not modify your gun to shoot out of spec ammo.
If you send me one of the rounds, I can do some measurements, however I believe others have already confirmed that batch of Golden tiger is out of spec.

Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!