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Author Topic: RDB Accuracy.  (Read 4902 times)
Potss
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« on: October 23, 2017, 01:37:56 PM »

Nutn just release his final RDB review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-TEcWO7YRA

Standard stuff (I'm not a huge fan of his) but of interest is at 18:50 onward, he shows the RDB's accuracy (or lack there of) compared to one of his ARs he built with an Odinworks barrel (by no means an amazing barrel).  Three shot groups aren't great, but he has enough to show some statistical significance.  Suffice to say that the AR was 2-3x as accurate with most loads, especially the match loads, and this is at 100y.

Now some of this is just the barrel quality, but a lot of it is the free-floating of said barrel since they use a similar method of lockup.  Outside of machining errors, an FF'd RDB with a nicer barrel should be able to print the same kind of groups that AR did.  Really hope Kel Tec improves their design, I'm tired of having to turn away from bullpups for anything remotely close to a precision semi-auto.
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Clarke-Sensei
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 02:28:55 PM »

I've had little faith in Nutn's reviews since his Steyr AUG review, so I take his info with a grain of salt.

Don't see what the issue is, technically. Kel-tec doesn't use the highest quality materials, so keeping it a 2 to 3 MOA gun is perfectly fine for what it is. It's a bit of a misdirection for Nutn to compare his SPR rifle to a non-precision rifle.

Free floating an RDB isn't an easy thing, and would require a entire redesign. Sounds like you want something like the MDR, when they get to fixing it up.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 02:42:28 PM by Clarke-Sensei » Logged
Tvfreakarms
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 02:39:18 PM »

It's a keltec. Sometimes nutn can be foolish with his reviews.

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk

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HBeretta
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 08:29:57 PM »

I've had little faith in Nutn's reviews since his Steyr AUG review, so I take his info with a grain of salt.

Don't see what the issue is, technically. Kel-tec doesn't use the highest quality materials, so keeping it a 2 to 3 MOA gun is perfectly fine for what it is. It's a bit of a misdirection for Nutn to compare his SPR rifle to a non-precision rifle.

Free floating an RDB isn't an easy thing, and would require a entire redesign. Sounds like you want something like the MDR, when they get to fixing it up.

yeah...considering the MDR is the first free floated bullpup on the market.  design wise regarding rail and barrel assembly it's similar to the tavor.  the early x95s were heavily criticized from terrible accuracy...so with the RDB getting 2-3 moa...is as expected.  i think with the introduction of the MDR, coming from a company legacy that's rooted in precision rifles, this newfound expectation for bullpups to be 1 MOA accurate is a little far reaching.  obviously not impossible from a design perspective, but here were are getting our first glimpse of a free floated bullpup in the MDR.  i'd be more undestanding if bullpups had a history of being accurate.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 08:33:03 PM by HBeretta » Logged
drhenks
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 08:51:14 PM »

I just finished this accuracy project with my Tavor and had great results. Maybe something similar could be done to the RDB. I think a lot of bullpup rifles do not have a solid connection between the internal receiver insert and the stock.

http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=12452.msg131959#msg131959
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Potss
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 12:53:16 PM »

Interesting mod, never though of bedding a bullpup haha. 

As for the other comments, yes I agree 2-3moa isn't bad for what the RDB is.  I'm just saying the only thing holding the RDB back seems to be the non-free floated barrel and maybe the barrel itself, both of which are easy to fix and from a pic in another thread Kel Tec might very well be trying.
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HBeretta
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 07:35:10 PM »

I'm just saying the only thing holding the RDB back seems to be the non-free floated barrel and maybe the barrel itself, both of which are easy to fix and from a pic in another thread Kel Tec might very well be trying.

George Kellgren certainly could come up with something...
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savagebrother
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 08:51:42 PM »

Mmm I must have got a real good one??? Just got mine out to shoot finally. After getting on paper at 25yds I shot this target at 100 yds. The trigger is excellent for any combat style rifle, but the accuracy with this ammo well you guys look and see what you think. My scope is primary arms 1-8X24 scope and ammo was buffalo cartridge company 223 Rem 55gr FMJ.
SB

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dmitry
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 09:41:10 PM »

The RDB is a 1-2 MOA gun typically.
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savagebrother
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 10:44:54 PM »

Now in all honesty, I have the after market hand guard which does help with accuracy.
Most people only think about one way to increase accuracy, free float the barrel. But there's another way that's been around for a long time too, add a stiffener. Well you add a hardened steel rods to the barrel with clamps. If you look in firearms news (the old shotgun news) you'll see an add of exactly this for a ruger mini 14. The new aftermarket hand guard helps to limit barrel vibrations a.k.a making a barrel mor accurate. Don't know what the other guys call it I call it trussing a barrel. You younger guys know that term?? You truss a swingarm on a motorcycle why?? To stop it from flexing. So why can't you do the same on a barrel. You can.
SB
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Potss
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2017, 03:47:15 PM »

Savage I don't mean to be a buzzkill, but three shot groups don't tell us much: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/118-279218/? 

That is why the method to determine the accuracy of a rifle is 5x5 or 3x10, as those get you statistical significance.  Nice shooting nonetheless, and if I could trouble you a bit more it would be really great to see you (or someone) be the first brave enough to post an entry to the MOA Challenge: https://www.ar15.com/forums/precision-rifles/-ARFCOM-1-MOA-ALL-DAY-LONG-Challenge-/17-51/  Even if you only get 1.5-2moa it would still be a great entry and certainly viewed as a success for a bullpup.

I also agree that the other option to free floating is tensioning and/or stiffening the action and barrel as the poster above described bedding his X95 as an example.  It is just that getting a free floated system right is a lot easier.  But absent that it is the way to go for sure.
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savagebrother
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 01:07:09 AM »

Hey potss no problem and I agree, it's all I had time for before it got dark, I think what I was trying to get across was I wasn't trying to shoot tight groups, this was the first time shooting the RDB and I didn't say anything about the rest I was using for the first time. The rest is a Caldwell stinger and it allowed me to put most of my weight on the back of the action which I'm sure helped with accuracy. But I like to shoot 10 and 15 round groups with this type rifle. This gives a far better idea of what you can do with it.
So I was impressed with the groupings that I had.
SB
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 02:29:06 AM »

Lol @ nutnfancy reviews and 3 shot groups.  Then he compared an Odin barrel to an Rdb barrel, not comparable at all.  Odin barrels are precision barrels, much better off comparing that to the Desert tech. What a stupid comparison.

I don't like the RDB design, but I never bought any bullpup or M4 to shoot off a bench. 
People need to stop obsessing with trying to shoot submoa out of combat guns.. ain't nobody going to shoot moa in any situation but a range and a bench with match grade ammo.

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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 02:39:24 AM »

Let's not forget nutnfancy also claimed that his Arsenal 107fr ak47 was a 1moa gun shooting 3 shot groups with tula  Roll Eyes ...
And posted an hour long video about it called arsenal the golden standard or some dumb s*** like that.
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Clarke-Sensei
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 02:42:28 AM »

Let's not forget nutnfancy also claimed that his Arsenal 107fr ak47 was a 1moa gun shooting 3 shot groups with tula  Roll Eyes ...
And posted an hour long video about it called arsenal the golden standard or some dumb s*** like that.

I'd rather not remember. Don't even know why I watched that video to begin with, don't like AKs.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 05:35:22 AM »

Let's not forget nutnfancy also claimed that his Arsenal 107fr ak47 was a 1moa gun shooting 3 shot groups with tula  Roll Eyes ...
And posted an hour long video about it called arsenal the golden standard or some dumb s*** like that.

I'd rather not remember. Don't even know why I watched that video to begin with, don't like AKs.


I love Aks, they are great for what they do.  Inside 100-200 yards you really don't need much more accuracy than an AK provides  ( ~3-5 moa).  They will keep chugging without cleaning, I had one i didn't clean into the 5 digit round count that Never malfunctioned.

However, I think bullpups like the Tavor are superior in my opinion. 

I'm a huge AR guy I will bet my life on on, use Colts to qualify with at work, but I do know that an AKs internal parts will outlast an ARs internals, including the extractor and springs.  For someone on a budget, an AK is a really great option.

But at some point you have to be realistic none of us are going to go around and shoot 5000 rounds in combat without cleaning or weapons or being able to provide a little bit of maintenance....

Most likely I would fire maybe a magazine or two of s*** got really crazy.....
And in all reality, bullpups like my X95 exceed in all aspects of what I need out of a defensive rifle including in a TEOTWAWKI situation.
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''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
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Clarke-Sensei
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 06:37:07 AM »

Let's not forget nutnfancy also claimed that his Arsenal 107fr ak47 was a 1moa gun shooting 3 shot groups with tula  Roll Eyes ...
And posted an hour long video about it called arsenal the golden standard or some dumb s*** like that.

I'd rather not remember. Don't even know why I watched that video to begin with, don't like AKs.


I love Aks, they are great for what they do.  Inside 100-200 yards you really don't need much more accuracy than an AK provides  ( ~3-5 moa).  They will keep chugging without cleaning, I had one i didn't clean into the 5 digit round count that Never malfunctioned.

However, I think bullpups like the Tavor are superior in my opinion. 

I'm a huge AR guy I will bet my life on on, use Colts to qualify with at work, but I do know that an AKs internal parts will outlast an ARs internals, including the extractor and springs.  For someone on a budget, an AK is a really great option.

But at some point you have to be realistic none of us are going to go around and shoot 5000 rounds in combat without cleaning or weapons or being able to provide a little bit of maintenance....

Most likely I would fire maybe a magazine or two of s*** got really crazy.....
And in all reality, bullpups like my X95 exceed in all aspects of what I need out of a defensive rifle including in a TEOTWAWKI situation.

Never saw anything wrong with AKs or ARs for their respective uses, but they never quite felt right to me.

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Potss
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2017, 05:59:33 PM »

Yeah Nuttin is full of s*** at least 50% of the time.  But my point was just that we COULD have a bullpup perform like that, and the RDB is a prime candidate with a minor redesign.

And just for the record, while Odin makes OK barrels, they aren't what I'd consider "match grade."  Unless it is a 3gun match where accuracy isn't a huge issue.  If he'd gotten out a Bartlein barreled AR that would be a different story.

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st381
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« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2017, 09:30:21 PM »

Yeah Nuttin is full of s*** at least 50% of the time.  But my point was just that we COULD have a bullpup perform like that, and the RDB is a prime candidate with a minor redesign.

And just for the record, while Odin makes OK barrels, they aren't what I'd consider "match grade."  Unless it is a 3gun match where accuracy isn't a huge issue.  If he'd gotten out a Bartlein barreled AR that would be a different story.



As I recall his point in the vid was that the RDB is as accurate as a mid grade AR barrel to show that they are comparable.
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