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Author Topic: TTAG has an MDR (videos)  (Read 11384 times)
rtp
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2017, 01:31:57 PM »

Hello , to change the subject a little bit , has anyone any new updates on the F90 Atrax ?

You're posting this not only in the an MDR specific thread, but in the MDR forum.
Try the Steyr forum(s) here for Atrax info and discussion: http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?board=4.0
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HBeretta
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2017, 01:53:01 PM »

Whether due to manufacturing inconsistency or not, a 7.5 pound trigger pull is much worse than average (even for bullpups, these days).

lol...tavor sar, aug, fs2000 all have much worse triggers.  the x95 isn't luxury either...and the rdb pulls around 5-6lbs although better than the aforementioned.  i haven't shot a k&m hearing they're the best so i can't speak to that.  far reaching statement...

but i'm with you regarding your concerns.  if it's the same t&e gun mac reviewed then the sticky mag release isn't a surprise.  but, i believe a couple of forum members here have complained about this as well.

DT has faced a lot of challenges along the way and i'm sure they'll iron out the kinks along the way.  Not like we haven't seen this before with sig recalls or subtle changes to a sku with all manufacturers.  likewise, the kel-tec rdb has seen numerous revisions since launch and those guns are still scarce.  this MDR is in demand so i'm not worried about the slow production.

although i'll admit i've taken a liking to the new tavor 7 aesthetically over the MDR and how left and right ejection is configured although you still have to disassemble and rotate the bolt for left ejection.  the MDR is still leading for me with ambi bolt and ejection and the quickest caliber change and weighs the same.

and above all they're production overload might be a blessing in disguise with aftermarket barrels/support being available sooner than later.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 02:13:39 PM by HBeretta » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2017, 02:46:00 PM »

Jeremy S of TTAG in response to a comment about the MDR being overgassed:

Quote
Theyíre addressing this with a better gas selection.

Iíd like to hear more.   CBM?  Can you share anything?

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cjgemm
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« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2017, 04:47:06 PM »

And more settings will improve gas to the face how?
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« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2017, 04:50:24 PM »

And more settings will improve gas to the face how?

Less blowback?
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cjgemm
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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2017, 05:01:40 PM »

It will reduce pressure in the gas system, but do nothing to keep gas from coming down the barrel and into the action of the gun.  From their it will find its way into the receiver and with a bullpup that is where you put your face.

Edit to add, the only way to reduce blow back is with a can designed to do so.  Traditional cans restrict the gas flow out the muzzle end which ends up forcing it down the barrel.  The quieter the can typically the more blowback it has.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 05:05:41 PM by cjgemm » Logged
Chief Master
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« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2017, 09:00:01 PM »

It seems to me that an easy fix to gas in the face is to make ejection port covers with rubber seals. But perhaps for one reason or another that's not feasible.
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2017, 09:14:15 PM »

If anything, this review is far too kind. 4/5 stars is quite generous given the issues reported.

Whether due to manufacturing inconsistency or not, a 7.5 pound trigger pull is much worse than average (even for bullpups, these days). And then thereís the gas face issues, the stiff and sometimes even catastrophically sticky mag release, and other quality control issues that are popping up at alarmingly frequent rates. These are issues of a sort you might expect from some garbage, bottom of the barrel, DPMS AR15; not a premium, $2500 so-called ďbattle rifleĒ.

This rifle appears to be an anomaly on this issue as others have reported just the opposite with regard to the trigger pull.  The mag release could be an issue of stacked tolerances, where low rate production parts are fine, but as production ramps up, the tolerances begin to stack and cause issues.  As for "alarming rates" of anything, all we're seeing are a handful of reviews and comments that really aren't, IMO, indicative of the entire product run.  Everyone who purchased an MDR doesn't live on forums, and after the past year and a half, they probably actively avoid mention of the rifle for good or bad.

For reporting these issues factually, is it really fair to accuse him of bashing the MDR unfairly? Why, for reporting a truth you donít want to hear? By all means let us be unbiased, but that goes both ways.

The comparison with the Tavor X95 is not only appropriate, but necessary. If the trigger is indeed worse than an X95, thatís a very important and relatable data point. 7.5 lbs is indeed worse than an X95 by a large margin (thatís closer to the original SAR pull weight). People do bash on the X95 trigger too much though; I suspect because many people never actually tried it and just remember the old SAR trigger.

Is it fair to accuse him of bashing the MDR?  Yes.  The review was amateurishly written and was more like a review of going to the range for a fun day than a serious review.  The way the report was written and the impression it left me was that the reviewer was biased towards the X95.  Conduct an apples to apples review...but you can't because I have yet to see an X95 in 7.62x51mm.    The accuracy tests were haphazard, and the overall feel was that not much effort would be put into trying to show the rifle in the best light. 

Your opinion my vary, but this one is mine.
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Kurt
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2017, 10:43:49 PM »

Review seems pretty spot on.

This is why you wait for the 2.0.  Needs an AGB or similar solution badly, and needs an improved trigger and probably a better barrel.  The last two supposedly come with the "Echo" we'll have to wait and see.
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bpguy
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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2017, 10:49:41 PM »

Seems to me from the reviews I have read and speaking personally to a couple of folks that own them the MDR has a sub par trigger just like most all bullpups.  I even pulled it myself and SHOT2017 and thought it was sub par there and they were touting a match trigger and they were improving it before release.  Long travel and kind of a mush just like most.  So much for a good trigger DT.
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ney1
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2017, 02:30:48 AM »

Reviewers don't follow scientific evaluation they have a short time to play with the rifle and provide their perspectives.  It doesn't make them right or wrong it just helps offer insights into the product. Luckily our engineers do follow scientific analysis. The MDR trigger is not 7.5 lbs it averages between 4.5-5 lbs.  in addition the mag release button on the x95 is way to close to the pistol grip so it is very hard to actuate it.  The MDR's mag button is located in exactly the same location as an ar15 in reference to the pistol grip.  MAC's MDR review stated the mag buttons were in the same location on the MDR and x95 which isn't true.  The mdrs accuracy also beats out the x95 and I know the x95 gases worse than the MDR and the Tavors rail height is all wrong for correct sight height and it's blocky and uncomfortable. The MDR fits like a glove.  So I am curious to know what was under refined on the MDR when compared to the x95. Stiffer mag button?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 02:36:12 AM by ney1 » Logged

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HBeretta
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2017, 03:00:10 AM »

The mdrs accuracy also beats out the x95 and I know the x95 gases worse than the MDR and the Tavors rail height is all wrong for correct sight height and it's blocky and uncomfortable. The MDR fits like a glove.  So I am curious to know what was under refined on the MDR when compared to the x95. Stiffer mag button?

the x95 fits like a glove and is very comfortable.  now the tavor sar on the other hand was less so for me.  i have yet to hold an MDR.  to each their own though.  not sure i understood his under refined statement either; the MDR looks like it's pretty high quality in comparison to others...not just tavors.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 01:11:56 PM by HBeretta » Logged
ttarp
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« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2017, 06:57:17 AM »

Seemed like as good quality a review as you could expect from such a source?  Also seemed like a genuinely positive review despite the trigger and suppressor issues.  I don't see the fuss about the X95 being brought up, likely its the bullpup rifle the reviewer was most familiar with, and the closest thing he had to compare it with.
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reason
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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2017, 09:49:56 AM »

Like it or not the X95/Tavor is the most popular bullpup for non bullpup fans. Its only natural that people will compare the MDR to those two rifles. That doesnt make it a "bias". Its a natural context for differentiation for those folks.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 10:25:07 AM by reason » Logged
bpguy
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« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2017, 01:17:12 PM »

Reviewers don't follow scientific evaluation they have a short time to play with the rifle and provide their perspectives.  It doesn't make them right or wrong it just helps offer insights into the product. Luckily our engineers do follow scientific analysis. The MDR trigger is not 7.5 lbs it averages between 4.5-5 lbs.  in addition the mag release button on the x95 is way to close to the pistol grip so it is very hard to actuate it.  The MDR's mag button is located in exactly the same location as an ar15 in reference to the pistol grip.  MAC's MDR review stated the mag buttons were in the same location on the MDR and x95 which isn't true.  The mdrs accuracy also beats out the x95 and I know the x95 gases worse than the MDR and the Tavors rail height is all wrong for correct sight height and it's blocky and uncomfortable. The MDR fits like a glove.  So I am curious to know what was under refined on the MDR when compared to the x95. Stiffer mag button?
NEY1, the gage that MAC used in his video does not lie.  6lb 12oz.  The gage was placed right where it is supposed to be, where the shooter would place his/her finger.  That is 4oz away from being a 7lb trigger.  These are 2 separate articles stating almost the same results and there are more examples.  So from where we sit, that is a lie to state "it averages between 4.5-5 lbs."
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Ditcher
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« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2017, 01:41:54 PM »

So Ney1 what's going on with the Group Buy orders?  Not expecting a reply but I tought it be fun.
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JesseJames38
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« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2017, 01:51:50 PM »

AS much as I am looking forward to receiving my MDR rifle I am a little but not to concerned about the trigger weight. I am more concerned about the mag release issue.      But from going back and looking the Video from mac and then looking at the TTAG review I see that they are both the same rifle.  Serial number 1536.   So it make sense that Tim pulls at 6lbs and 12 oz to match what TTAG is pulling at 7.5lbs.  Perhaps this is just a one off situation.  Or maybe there are other rifles being sent out that has this same trigger issue.     Its hard to say that the majority of the firearms are being sent out with a 7lb trigger pull when all the reviews are being made with the same rifle.  I am still waiting on some video reviews of people who own there own firearms that do have a trigger gage to really get a good idea what the majority of the rifles are being shipped with. As for the Gas issue,  I don't have a suppressor but it dose seem there is room on the gas valve to add 1 or 2 more settings from the photos I have seen.  If not it looks like the part is easy enough to make if some one has a milling machine and/or lathe they could make there own gas valve system.  Beyond that taking off the butt pad, cheek pad and putting a thin coat of black RTV on it and installing them two parts in would help some.  and possibly a small bead around the port cover edge to make a rubber gasket would do the trick

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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2017, 01:57:56 PM »

Quote from: bpguy
NEY1, the gage that MAC used in his video does not lie.  6lb 12oz.  The gage was placed right where it is supposed to be, where the shooter would place his/her finger.  That is 4oz away from being a 7lb trigger.  These are 2 separate articles stating almost the same results and there are more examples.  So from where we sit, that is a lie to state "it averages between 4.5-5 lbs."

That seems a little harsh.  Iím no trigger expert, but arenít trigger weights affected by where the gauge is placed on the trigger?   Again, Iím no expert so others can chime in.
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Chief Master
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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2017, 02:10:34 PM »

Overall, ney1, you just came off as being defensive. Instead of disparaging reviewers because they don't follow your same "scientific evaluation," you should acknowledge that the rifle they reviewed had a heavy trigger pull and find out what caused it. And reviewers are going to compare the MDR to the X95 and RDB/RFB, because that's the competition out here. Many aspects of a review--especially comparing ergonomics of one rifle to another--are subjective, and we customers know that and take it with a grain of salt. You don't need to come out of the gate swinging: I still think the rifle looks awesome and I can't wait to get mine!
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Ascinder
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« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2017, 04:25:56 PM »

Most importantly, what threshold of trigger pull/ mag release difficulty would DT consider to be excessive and warrant fixing? If the average trigger weight is supposed to be 4.5-5 lbs, at what point would it be sent back? 6 lbs? 6.5 lbs? 7 lbs? Is the trigger system adjustable at all where DT could just send out a replacement spring or guide where customers could fix the problem themselves?
The mag release concerns me quite a bit as some have brought up issues with stiffness/stickiness and other have said mags either drop free on their own or wont drop free at all. That seems like a legit issue.
The gas system could probably use several more suppressed settings. That was something I have been saying ever since we found out it would only have a couple. Out of everything, that should be a pretty straightforward fix since it would likely just be a replacement gas plug. The lower pressures of a more adjustable plug and a simple gasket, RTV, thick grease, etc on the ejectors should fix the gas face. Obviously a low backpressure suppressor would greatly help with this.
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