Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 21, 2017, 09:46:25 PM
Home Home Help Calendar Login Register
News:

Please support BullpupForum.com sponsors!!
. . . Midwest Industries . . . BullpupArmory.com . . . Shooting Sight . . . BullpupUnlimited.com . . . Homeland Guns . . . . . . . . . . . . AB Arms . . . GallowayPrecision.com . . . K & M Arms . . . . . . Geissele Automatics
+  BULLPUP FORUM
|-+  Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire)
| |-+  IWI Tavor & X-95
| | |-+  Ammo Recomendations
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print
Author Topic: Ammo Recomendations  (Read 2003 times)
ricklee4570
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« on: September 13, 2017, 10:18:44 AM »

With the 1 in 7 twist rate, which ammo are you finding groups best in your Tavor? I have a chance to buy some bulk ammo and am wondering if in general most are having better luck with 62 to 69 grain over standard 55 grain?
Logged
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 04:25:45 PM »

I mostly just stack 55gr wolf gold for my Tavor.  It's their brass case ammo, and it shoots pretty hot (3000+ fps).  Gives me consistent 2-2.5'' groups with my Tavor.  I save all the brass and make my own ammo using wolf gold brass cases with great results.  Wolf gold is the most accurate m193 type ammo I have tried personally, it shoots great in all my guns.

I think the weight is less important than bullet style, so basically just see what works in your gun and buy a bunch of whatever works best.

50gr Nosler ballistic tip handloads give me 1'' 5 shot groups
Wolf Gold 55gr gives me about 2moa
60gr vmax gives me like 5 moa and shoots 6'' high
62gr federal fusion bullet handloads gives me 1.5 moa
64gr nosler bonded performance handloads gives me about 2-2.5moa
75gr hornady tap is about 2-3moa


So basically for me bullet weight hasn't really mattered, different loads just shoot different.  One of the most important things for me was realizing that the trigger actually breaks about 2mm after the wall, if you master the trigger you will have less flyers.

Here's a thread about some of my accuracy reports using both handloads, and wolf gold with my Tavor x95.
https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=12164.0
Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
gsxr1300
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 08:30:33 PM »

Has anyone tried prvi partizan  55 grain?
Logged
Leonitus
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 205



« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 08:23:02 AM »

Shot some Asym 77gr........five shot groups were just under 2" with my SAR.
Still getting used to this weapon, I think sub 1.5" groups are possible with a scope
Logged
Tvfreakarms
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 440


« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 02:57:36 PM »

I mostly just stack 55gr wolf gold for my Tavor.  It's their brass case ammo, and it shoots pretty hot (3000+ fps).  Gives me consistent 2-2.5'' groups with my Tavor.  I save all the brass and make my own ammo using wolf gold brass cases with great results.  Wolf gold is the most accurate m193 type ammo I have tried personally, it shoots great in all my guns.

I think the weight is less important than bullet style, so basically just see what works in your gun and buy a bunch of whatever works best.

50gr Nosler ballistic tip handloads give me 1'' 5 shot groups
Wolf Gold 55gr gives me about 2moa
60gr vmax gives me like 5 moa and shoots 6'' high
62gr federal fusion bullet handloads gives me 1.5 moa
64gr nosler bonded performance handloads gives me about 2-2.5moa
75gr hornady tap is about 2-3moa


So basically for me bullet weight hasn't really mattered, different loads just shoot different.  One of the most important things for me was realizing that the trigger actually breaks about 2mm after the wall, if you master the trigger you will have less flyers.

Here's a thread about some of my accuracy reports using both handloads, and wolf gold with my Tavor x95.
https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=12164.0
Interesting.  I would assume a heavier bullet would be best for 1 and 7 or 8 twist barrels.
I wonder cause the tavors aren't free floated might have something to do with it

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk

Logged
Leonitus
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 205



« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 04:37:34 PM »

Those groupings really make little sense.
Logged
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 07:08:59 PM »

Those groupings really make little sense.

Exactly the point I was trying to share.

Bullet weight alone does not determine accuracy.  Twist rates are only responsible for stabilization of bullets, a faster twist does not mean a heavier bullets are more accurate.  What creates accuracy is bullet design, cartridge dimensions, consistency of powder loads, burn rates, and barrel harmonics amoung other things.

I know it sounds crazy, but I hand load a lot.  I have loaded everything from 50gr bullets to 75gr bullets in my 223 guns.  All my 223 guns have 1/7 and 1/8 twist rates.  My most accurate handloads are the 50gr nosler ballistic tips with h335 using a really light powder charge (24gr).   I have experimented with tons of bullets, powders, and the whole shebang..  Another interesting thing is every gun shoots a little different, and may prefer one powder or bullet style over another gun.

My Tavor shoots Wolf gold brass 55gr more accurate than my match grade AR, but my match grade AR shoots those 50gr bullets into .7'' groups at 100 yards.


There are countless factors for what one may consider the best load for a gun.  Personally, I am willing to give up a little accuracy for terminal performance for my self defense rounds.   For punching paper, I give up terminal performance for accuracy.  What is '' best '' is totally subjective.

Shopping for a good load for a Tavor, isn't any different that doing so for an AR15 with at 16'' barrel in my humble opinion.
Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
Leonitus
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 205



« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 08:14:36 PM »

I appreciate you sharing your findings
Logged
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 08:59:49 PM »

I appreciate you sharing your findings

No problem.

Ya I find it interesting how accurate those 50gr bullets are.  Using 24 grains of h335 those bullets are only going about 2700-2800 fps.  So it's a weak load, but a tack driving load.  Recoil is very mild using this load.
When I upped the powder charge for those bullets, accuracy decreased.  Which kind of bummed me out in one sense because I wanted to shoot some 50 grainers 3300+ fps, but seing that it is my most accurate load I am happy.
I'm sure if I kept searching around I could find some heavier bullets that perform as accurate or better, but I also try to keep cost down, and those fancy bullets are really expensive.

My favorite load right now is, I have an overrun bulk pack of factory second federal fusion bullets.  I bought them for 12 cents per bullet in bulk  Grin Grin Grin Grin , I load them up with 25.6gr of CFE-223, and they give me amazing accuracy for being soft points.  My experience is that soft points usually get deformed in semi autos, and don't group that well.  But these shoot really really nice.  Overall cost is about 25 cents per round  Grin


Disclaimer
I worked up these hand loads using published data as estimates of what is safe to load those federals, I had to guestimate and work up that load.  I know it is safe in my Tavor and AR15's but if anyone wants to load do your own research for your loads, work it up and be safe!  My brass casing might have more volume and create less pressure than say lake city brass.

Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
Leonitus
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 205



« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 06:51:09 AM »

Would suspect your "weak loading" has allowed you to find the sweet spot for your barrel's harmonics. We generally only key in on projectile weight, rifling and overall case length when thinking of a accurate cartridge. Powder selection, as well as velocity are attributes that must be considered as well.

Well done Sir
Logged
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 08:05:24 AM »

Would suspect your "weak loading" has allowed you to find the sweet spot for your barrel's harmonics.


Well, possibly for that particular bullet/ load yes.  I think I just got lucky finding that load with the 50gr ballistic tips though.

But I've had the opposite effect with 60 grain ballistic tips.  With the 60 grain ballistic tips, the hotter I made the load the more accurate they shot.  23.5 gr h335 was grouping about 3-4"  24 and 24.5 gr  h335 was grouping about 2-3", and the max load of 25gr h335 was getting 1.5" groups, and grouping those 1.5" groups very consistently.

My experience has basically just been kind of random.  Different bullets and different barrels perform randomly from my experience.  For example, one  of my ARs will group the 50 and 60gr to the same basic poi at 100 yards, but my tavor will group the 50s to poa and poi while the 60s will shoot 5" high.


The main difference between the nosler 50gr and 60 gr ballistic tips besides weight is the 60gr has a cannelure. 


I've loaded lots of other kinds of bullets too, but I don't want to bore y'all too much lol.  Basically, for me good loads come pretty randomly for differnet guns, even two ARs of the same style might prefer different loads.  Best way to figure out what works best is to test the loads out on a day with no wind and a some sandbags.

Maybe after I get some more experience I'll be able to better understand these things.  So far I've come to have a good idea for safe powder charges and such, but I never will know how the bullets will perform till I actually shoot them.
Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 08:11:02 AM »

One thing I have noticed is that the bullet manufacturers they publish data for Max and minimum loads of powder, and when they do they put a note next to their most accurate loads tested...  I found personally that usually those bullet manufacturers are correct on their most accurate loads tested. 
Not always, but mostly.  That's just from my limited experience though.

If any reloaders out there are searching to load some federal fusion 62gr bullets for cheap, I'll pm you a link to my secret sorce of booolits Smiley  I couldn't find any published data though, I settled on 25.6gr cfe223 and my TavorX95 seems to like that load.
Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
fatty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 01:56:53 PM »

For the tavor's intended purpose, I don't find it to really matter if it shoots 3moa or 1moa although an accurate gun is great.  It's built around CQB agility for war...  not really for bench rest shooting for the smallest groups  Grin

I stock up as much M193 as I can find at great prices.  If wolf gold is cheaper, I'd buy that too.

My SS 20" AR in 223 wylde is designated for making teenie tiny groups  Cool
Logged
Beach Bill
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 05:32:43 PM »

My favorite load right now is, I have an overrun bulk pack of factory second federal fusion bullets.  I bought them for 12 cents per bullet in bulk  Grin Grin Grin Grin , I load them up with 25.6gr of CFE-223, and they give me amazing accuracy for being soft points.

Thanks for sharing some of your reload experience with CFE223. I'm fairly new to rifle cartridge reloading. I recent worked up some CFE223 loads, with mixed results (tested in an AR platform, not my Tavors).  I had another reloader suggest loading them a little bit hotter, around 27.1-27.3gr, for a 55gr FMJ (his experience was CFE223 performed better closer to max loads). I have  not tried CFE223 loads as low as the one you posted, so I need to do some testing around the load level you mentioned.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:25:49 PM by Beach Bill » Logged
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 05:52:33 PM »

My favorite load right now is, I have an overrun bulk pack of factory second federal fusion bullets.  I bought them for 12 cents per bullet in bulk  Grin Grin Grin Grin , I load them up with 25.6gr of CFE-223, and they give me amazing accuracy for being soft points.

Thanks for sharing some of your reload experience with CFE223. I'm fairly new to rifle cartridge reloading. I recent worked up some CFE223 loads, with mixed results (tested in an AR platform, not my Tavors).  I had another reloader suggest loading them a little bit hotter, around 27.1-27.3gr, for a 55gr FMJ (his experience was CFE223 performed better closer to max loads). I HAVE not tried CFE223 loads as low as the one you posted, so I need to do some testing around the load level you mentioned.


I've also heard guys report great accuracy with really hot CFE223 loads using 55gr bullts.

Disclaimer, I am not saying these are cold hard facts, these are just my thoughts and opinions, yes some of these statements could be incorrect, please correct me if so...

CFE223 is a slower burning powder, so it's better for heavier bullets.  25.6 is near the max load for the 62gr bullet mentioned because it has a longer bearing surface.  Longer bearing surface = more pressure = less powder somewhat regardless of weight.
I think 25.7 is the max load for CFE223 and 62gr SS109 bullets. ( per published load data I found )
Nosler partition 60gr has less bearing surface and the max load is 27gr. (CFE223)
Nosler Bonded performance 64gr has a max load of 26gr. (CFE223)
But ya for 55gr nosler ballistic tip, max published load for that bullet is 28gr of CFE223, which is a compressed load.

The bearing surface is very important regarding max loads, because sometimes lighter weight bullets have more bearing surface which makes the max load less powder than the max load for a heavier bullet.... So basically, max loads are not determined on weight alone, which is why I like to cross reference data, which is what I had to do to guestimate safe loads for the federal fusions because I could not find any load data for those.  Also considering they were factory seconds, I could not be sure their bearing surface was equal to their boxed loaded ammo.  You really roll the dice when buying bulk factory seconds, and I personally like to play it safe.  I'm sure I could up the charge maybe .5-1 gr with that load, but see no need to as they expand out to a few hundred yards just fine with my current load.  Velocity is not as crucial with soft point and ballistic tip ammo as it is with FMJ.

For 55gr and lighter bullets I suggest a faster burning powder like h335.  My 55gr bullet loads I usually throw in about 25gr of h335.

27gr of CFE223 loads are usually compressed or 100% full, I am personally not fond of loading compressed loads because it scares me to be honest.  Even though it is safe, it just makes me nervous.

I know some guys like using CFE223 for light bullets, but for me I try to stick with 60gr and up for CFE223.
Generally in my mind I think along the lines of, lighter bullets use faster powder, heavier bullets use slower powder.  But, you never know what might work great.  I do know I hardly ever see published load data for slower powders and light bullets which is why I think about this concept the way I do.

  I am also not sure, but I assume when using slower powders with lighter bullets you might increase muzzle flash.  So for use in a suppressor something like h332 might be a winner, but this is just my speculation in regards to the muzzle flash.  I think barrel length and twist rate also play a part in powder selection.  In my mind if I had a shorter barrel with light twist and bullet, I would be using faster powders, and vice versa.
But in the end, with my experience being that everything seems to give me random results.. I can't say there is any magic rule of thumb one needs to abide to.  That is the great part about reloading, is experimenting and finding surprising results!

Edit to add:  I have noticed CFE223 does keep more bore cleaner.  Only takes a few patches to clean after a few hundred rounds.  

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 06:39:45 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 06:34:46 PM »

For the tavor's intended purpose, I don't find it to really matter if it shoots 3moa or 1moa although an accurate gun is great.  It's built around CQB agility for war...  not really for bench rest shooting for the smallest groups  Grin

I stock up as much M193 as I can find at great prices.  If wolf gold is cheaper, I'd buy that too.

My SS 20" AR in 223 wylde is designated for making teenie tiny groups  Cool

I like your line of thinking.  But I also like my fantasy world of using bonded softpoints for when the zombies come  Grin  Lol
I also have a few hundred loaded up varmint rounds I made that are pretty damn awesome(explosive), I like keeping my Tavor in my truck when driving through the desert, as it's easy to take in and out of the truck with it's compact size, I'll keep a mag of varmint rounds in it, jump out and blast some rabbits here and there when I see them  Grin   Those things turn varmints into pink mist  Shocked


What kind of loads are you running through your SS AR?
Got any recipies you want to share?  Grin
Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
fatty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 06:51:43 PM »

Yeah I hear heavier grain soft points are pretty awesome for defensive shooting.  Is it the 69gr SP that's used by a lot of SWAT teams?

No recipes for me yet...   I've actually had great luck shooting commercial ammo of various sorts.  My 20" is an RRA cryo-treated & air gauged SS 1/8 in 223 wylde and it eats pretty much anything I feed it as accurately as I can shoot.  M193 is probably the least accurate but it's still within 2-2.5moa.  I have this stuff written down somewhere lol

I need to get back on that again. 
Logged
RabbitSlayer
Bullpup Fanatic
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,021


« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2017, 07:06:49 PM »

Yeah I hear heavier grain soft points are pretty awesome for defensive shooting. 

It does perform great, but the main thing with 223 softpoints is they they should be bonded.  Non bonded softpoints like sierra game kings have similar penetration as varmint ammo from my testing.  They expand great, but lack penetration.  The bonded bullets I have tested are similarly as devastating, but penetrate about 2x as far.

Another thing is, protected tip designs are important for self loading rifles, because the feed ramps often deform traditional soft points, which in my experience has made accuracy less than stellar.

Soft points that look like this are vital for autoloaders in my opinion.  Either that or spend 2x as much money and get ballistic tip designs like barnes ttsx.






Soft points that look like this get deformed when feeding in my AR/Tavor and shoot around 3+Moa





Is it the 69gr SP that's used by a lot of SWAT teams?
 

I think every department uses different loads.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 07:34:12 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged

''The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.''
-Thomas Jefferson
fatty
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 39


« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2017, 09:47:48 PM »

I actually got a whole bunch of this Liberty Silverado 223 for free a while back too.  Wish I had access to shoot gelatin blocks lol



I saw some youtube clips and it looks like a nasty round.
Logged
JRKrejsa
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 32


« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 04:42:14 AM »

I've had the best luck with Federal 5.56, in M193 55gr.  I have not done any bench rest shooting with my X-95.  But with that round, I can keep everything on a paper plate when shooting from 200 yds, prone.

My rifle does not like some loadings in .223, Hornaday 55gr steel cade in particular.  it always goes bang, but sometimes lacked the energy to fully cycle the action and reset the trigger.

As for the rounds I actually carry, Federal bonded soft point, 55gr.  They call it their tactical rifle bonded load.  Functions well.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print 
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!