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Author Topic: 300BLK, what's the deal?  (Read 2679 times)
generalzip
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« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2017, 02:29:16 PM »

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I don't understand the interest in a .300blk or 5.56 for that matter that weighs over 8.5 lbs... Maybe for folks that just shoot at the range. Anyone that has actually carried their rifle any distance in the field knows there are better options out there (300blk SBR AR-15). In my eye's the MDR is only useful and unique in the .308/6.5CM cartridge family. Just my opinion though.

Because a 10" 300 BLK conversion kit weighs a lot less than an additional, stand alone rifle system. 300BLK is also a lot quieter suppressed and has higher ammo density than .308 or 6.5CM. If you are in anywhere besides open country, a short to intermediate range round makes more sense. For a truck gun or home defense gun it makes more sense. People who want versatility, coupled with everything else the MDR bringa to the table are the ones interested in these other rounds.

? A .300 blk MDR sbr will still weigh much more than an AR sbr. Also, with an AR you don't need an entirely new rifle...just a new upper. An entire upper is still WAYYY cheaper with premium barrel than an MDR conversion kit. Not to mention you need to re-zero the MDR when you change barrels. With an AR you just swap the upper with its dedicated optic. I'm not saying the .300 blk is a useless round, I've used it to kill dozens of hogs. I'm just saying a .300blk IN and MDR makes no sense to me. To each his own however. Obviously some people must want them if they plan to build them. Personally I wish they would make a 20-22" 6.5CM conversion first.
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2017, 02:33:29 PM »

7.62x51mm was used by most of NATO in the FAL or G3 until the 80s or early 90s, and is still used by some third world nations in this primary rifle.  It is still used by the US and NATO, not to mention those third world countries, in their LMGs such as the MAG-58/M-240, MG-3, and others.

When I read that part my initial knee jerk was that it was a dumb statement because the .308 is still in use. But then I remembered that the .308 stopped being the primary NATO round with the introduction of the M-16. I'm willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt on that front.

Maybe for the US, but the majority of Europe didn't convert until the 80s or 90s.  Germany went to 5.56 when the G-36 was adopted in 1997, England went to the L-85 in 1987, and in 1989, Belgium adopted the FNC to name three NATO countries that used the G-3 or FAL into the late 80s or late 90s.

If the author qualified his statement that it was only used for the issue infantry rifle in the US, then I'd be willing to give him a pass.  Perhaps it's the classes I've been taking recently on systems design and production, but if he's willing to make a generalization that sloppy, what else about his research is sloppy?  Answer:  His rifle weights.

His conclusions may be valid, but I think his methodology was designed solely to support the preconceived notions that he wanted to prove.
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Kurt
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« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2017, 02:36:54 PM »

? A .300 blk MDR sbr will still weigh much more than an AR sbr. Also, with an AR you don't need an entirely new rifle...just a new upper. An entire upper is still WAYYY cheaper with premium barrel than an MDR conversion kit. Not to mention you need to re-zero the MDR when you change barrels. With an AR you just swap the upper with its dedicated optic. I'm not saying the .300 blk is a useless round, I've used it to kill dozens of hogs. I'm just saying a .300blk IN and MDR makes no sense to me. To each his own however. Obviously some people must want them if they plan to build them. Personally I wish they would make a 20-22" 6.5CM conversion first.

A quality upper (with BCG) and a quality optic can cost as much, or more than, an MDR conversion.  When it comes to weight, I'll give that to you, but I think one piece of the equation is being overlooked; balance and fatigue.  Watch Tim's video on MAC about the MDR and he says several times (both in that video and the livestream he did on FB a few days earlier) that the balance makes the rifle feel much lighter than it is and that he can hold it at ready for much, much longer than he could an AR.

Ideally, the MDR would have that kind of balance and an AR's weight.  Maybe next year in Jerusalem.
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Kurt
generalzip
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« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2017, 03:16:21 PM »

? A .300 blk MDR sbr will still weigh much more than an AR sbr. Also, with an AR you don't need an entirely new rifle...just a new upper. An entire upper is still WAYYY cheaper with premium barrel than an MDR conversion kit. Not to mention you need to re-zero the MDR when you change barrels. With an AR you just swap the upper with its dedicated optic. I'm not saying the .300 blk is a useless round, I've used it to kill dozens of hogs. I'm just saying a .300blk IN and MDR makes no sense to me. To each his own however. Obviously some people must want them if they plan to build them. Personally I wish they would make a 20-22" 6.5CM conversion first.

A quality upper (with BCG) and a quality optic can cost as much, or more than, an MDR conversion.  When it comes to weight, I'll give that to you, but I think one piece of the equation is being overlooked; balance and fatigue.  Watch Tim's video on MAC about the MDR and he says several times (both in that video and the livestream he did on FB a few days earlier) that the balance makes the rifle feel much lighter than it is and that he can hold it at ready for much, much longer than he could an AR.

Ideally, the MDR would have that kind of balance and an AR's weight.  Maybe next year in Jerusalem.

Like I said to each his own. I know the MDR balances well. I've held one on two separate occasions. However if you've ever hunted over large acreage you'd realize very fast how important light is. If you plan to mount a magnified optic and can on your MDR you're looking at 11+ lbs. that's pretty substantial weight to carry for miles. For home defense or range shooting is a moot point however. I have a .300 blk 8.3" sbr AR that balances extremely well with my sico omega. And it weighs around 7 lbs with the cam and red dot

Also you compare the price of an upper and optics. In that case you'd have a dedicated optic that you wouldn't need to re zero when you switch caliber. I owned an SRS covert and sold the conversion kits because it was such a pain in the ass all the time to verify zero before hunting. Again, I'm a hunter and that's my sole use for this rifle so my use may differ from yours. If you just plink or shoot matches re zeroing isn't AS big of a pain in the ass. I like to be able to pull my rifles out of the safe for a hunt and know they will shoot where I aim.
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SWGGUN
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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2017, 04:03:38 PM »

Maybe for the US, but the majority of Europe didn't convert until the 80s or 90s.  Germany went to 5.56 when the G-36 was adopted in 1997, England went to the L-85 in 1987, and in 1989, Belgium adopted the FNC to name three NATO countries that used the G-3 or FAL into the late 80s or late 90s.

Like mentioned before in here, the "short-lived use" was actually referring to the infantry use in the US Army where it was later replaced by the M16/5.56 combo afaik. Fixed that for clarity now, thanks for pointing it out.

If the author qualified his statement that it was only used for the issue infantry rifle in the US, then I'd be willing to give him a pass.

The scope of the article wasn't really to teach you a history lesson about said cartridges, those paragraph is 100% Wikipedia tbh. The goal was to provide a comparison for certain specs, gathered from manufacturers and computer generated data, all in one place, so you can compare and choose yourself.

Perhaps it's the classes I've been taking recently on systems design and production, but if he's willing to make a generalization that sloppy, what else about his research is sloppy?  Answer:  His rifle weights.

Actually we had a long discussion on Reddit about this topic. Initially we were using different weights for each cartridge to test recoil, however the big majority of people said that they would prefer if we continue using the same weights, for the sake of comparison. Everything else would be apples to oranges. That being said, 7lb is a commonly used metric when working with those computer generated numbers and if that's not the exact weight you are interested in, doing your own calculation takes seconds: http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

His conclusions may be valid, but I think his methodology was designed solely to support the preconceived notions that he wanted to prove.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Like I said, there is nothing this article tries to prove. Those are computer generated numbers and data gathered from manufacturers. There isn't much room for interpretation.


Interesting discussion guys, enjoyed following it.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 04:07:31 PM by SWGGUN » Logged
Ascinder
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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2017, 04:06:13 PM »

Quote
A .300 blk MDR sbr will still weigh much more than an AR sbr. Also, with an AR you don't need an entirely new rifle...just a new upper. An entire upper is still WAYYY cheaper with premium barrel than an MDR conversion kit.

I guess I'm behind the times on AR technology(I admittedly don't care for them), so where do I find a 300BLK upper for an AR-10?

Quote
Not to mention you need to re-zero the MDR when you change barrels. With an AR you just swap the upper with its dedicated optic.

That's not the case. Each barrel retains it's own zero. You just have to write it down and move clicks when you change calibers. Hardly re-zeroing.

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With an AR you just swap the upper with its dedicated optic.

I just run a magnified optic for .308 and a red dot for the 300BLK. Either can also cross over for the other. Seems lees costly than all these dedicated optics, especially if you buy quality stuff.

A 10" 300 BLK bullpup MDR with a can on it is going to be shorter and balance out better than a SBR'd AR. For the longer range hunting stuff, a dedicated bolt gun is going to be lighter and better than anything listed so far. The MDR wasn't designed for hunting, so no, that isn't going to be the ideal use.



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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2017, 04:39:21 PM »

SWGGUN,

Welcome to BPF!  Welcome!

Thanks for chiming in to clarify things!
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generalzip
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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2017, 05:31:42 PM »

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A .300 blk MDR sbr will still weigh much more than an AR sbr. Also, with an AR you don't need an entirely new rifle...just a new upper. An entire upper is still WAYYY cheaper with premium barrel than an MDR conversion kit.

I guess I'm behind the times on AR technology(I admittedly don't care for them), so where do I find a 300BLK upper for an AR-10?

Quote
Not to mention you need to re-zero the MDR when you change barrels. With an AR you just swap the upper with its dedicated optic.

That's not the case. Each barrel retains it's own zero. You just have to write it down and move clicks when you change calibers. Hardly re-zeroing.

Quote
With an AR you just swap the upper with its dedicated optic.

I just run a magnified optic for .308 and a red dot for the 300BLK. Either can also cross over for the other. Seems lees costly than all these dedicated optics, especially if you buy quality stuff.

A 10" 300 BLK bullpup MDR with a can on it is going to be shorter and balance out better than a SBR'd AR. For the longer range hunting stuff, a dedicated bolt gun is going to be lighter and better than anything listed so far. The MDR wasn't designed for hunting, so no, that isn't going to be the ideal use.





1. I'm referencing an AR-15 system. Not AR-10. 2 different weight classes. We are discussing alternatives to a .300blk MDR. Not a .308 MDR. I think the .308 MDR will be an awesome combo. I can't wait to get mine in.

2. I owned a SRS covert that would shift about 0.5-1" from just taking the barrel in and out. The MDR uses a very similar system so I would expect the same shift. While not much, this is important to some guys if you're shooting 3-400 yards. In addition, it's not "just moving clicks". It's taking the caps off and adjusting a zero stop, etc. It's a pain in the ass...hence why I sold my conversion kits for my SRS.

3. I'm confused by what you're trying to say on your last point a bit, can you clarify? Sounds like you're saying you own 2 scopes to run the 2 calibers. If that's the case you negate the cost advantage to running a single scope for both calibers. Therefore, a .300 blk upper would cost WAYYY less.
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Ascinder
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2017, 05:52:13 PM »

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1. I'm referencing an AR-15 system. Not AR-10. 2 different weight classes. We are discussing alternatives to a .300blk MDR. Not a .308 MDR. I think the .308 MDR will be an awesome combo. I can't wait to get mine in.

Here I thought we were talking about the MDR, which can do both. So the MDR is 8.5 lbs in .308 which will logically drop a bit with a 10" 300BLK barrel. The reason I was interested in the MDR is because it can be swapped from heavy to light with just the conversion kit. Otherwise, you'd have to own two different guns(AR15 and AR10) which I'm sure would be heavier/bulkier overall.

Quote
2. I owned a SRS covert that would shift about 0.5-1" from just taking the barrel in and out. The MDR uses a very similar system so I would expect the same shift. While not much, this is important to some guys if you're shooting 3-400 yards. In addition, it's not "just moving clicks". It's taking the caps off and adjusting a zero stop, etc. It's a pain in the ass...hence why I sold my conversion kits for my SRS.

I own an SRS. It retains its zero just fine. Sonething may have been wrong with yours. I'm sure DT would have looked at it and fixed it.

Most people when switching between conversions just log the difference in their zeroes and work from there. My scope just clicks, you don't need to do all that extra stuff.

Quote
3. I'm confused by what you're trying to say on your last point a bit, can you clarify? Sounds like you're saying you own 2 scopes to run the 2 calibers. If that's the case you negate the cost advantage to running a single scope for both calibers. Therefore, a .300 blk upper would cost WAYYY less.

I have a USO MR-10 for the .308 side and a red dot for 300BLK side. I set zero for the MR-10 off of my .308. I set the red dot zeroed for 300BLK. I then see how many clicks each need to change(and write it down) when I swap calibers. They are usually so close, it doesn't matter at the ranges I would be using the red dot at. The cost of the additional red dot is negligable and they are used as backups for scopes anyways. Here's an example:
precisionrifleblog.com/2013/03/07/long-range-short-range-hunting-scope-combo-setup
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generalzip
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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2017, 06:06:02 PM »

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1. I'm referencing an AR-15 system. Not AR-10. 2 different weight classes. We are discussing alternatives to a .300blk MDR. Not a .308 MDR. I think the .308 MDR will be an awesome combo. I can't wait to get mine in.

Here I thought we were talking about the MDR, which can do both. So the MDR is 8.5 lbs in .308 which will logically drop a bit with a 10" 300BLK barrel. The reason I was interested in the MDR is because it can be swapped from heavy to light with just the conversion kit. Otherwise, you'd have to own two different guns(AR15 and AR10) which I'm sure would be heavier/bulkier overall.

Quote
2. I owned a SRS covert that would shift about 0.5-1" from just taking the barrel in and out. The MDR uses a very similar system so I would expect the same shift. While not much, this is important to some guys if you're shooting 3-400 yards. In addition, it's not "just moving clicks". It's taking the caps off and adjusting a zero stop, etc. It's a pain in the ass...hence why I sold my conversion kits for my SRS.

I own an SRS. It retains its zero just fine. Sonething may have been wrong with yours. I'm sure DT would have looked at it and fixed it.

Most people when switching between conversions just log the difference in their zeroes and work from there. My scope just clicks, you don't need to do all that extra stuff.

Quote
3. I'm confused by what you're trying to say on your last point a bit, can you clarify? Sounds like you're saying you own 2 scopes to run the 2 calibers. If that's the case you negate the cost advantage to running a single scope for both calibers. Therefore, a .300 blk upper would cost WAYYY less.

I have a USO MR-10 for the .308 side and a red dot for 300BLK side. I set zero for the MR-10 off of my .308. I set the red dot zeroed for 300BLK. I then see how many clicks each need to change(and write it down) when I swap calibers. They are usually so close, it doesn't matter at the ranges I would be using the red dot at. The cost of the additional red dot is negligable and they are used as backups for scopes anyways. Here's an example:
precisionrifleblog.com/2013/03/07/long-range-short-range-hunting-scope-combo-setup

Again a .300blk MDR is wayyy heavier than a .300blk AR-15. The .300blk MDR would be around 8.4 lbs.

For a precision scope, why on earth would you not set your turrets to zero....You'd never know where your zero is. If you have to crank for elevation you lose the ability to use your zero stop unless you spend the time to set it. On some scopes this is very difficult (ie. Vortex PST). I agree if you're just using a red dot or similar scope it makes it much easier. But a lot of folks run turrets, in particular long range hunters that shoot past 250-300 yards where hold overs are not as reliable.
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Ascinder
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2017, 07:45:38 PM »

Yes, an MDR is going to be heavier than an AR, no mystery there. But not both. If I want to have the capability of both rounds available to me at any given time, the MDR and a conversion kit wins in cost, weight and bulk. You are looking at this from a hunting perspective and I am looking at it from a combat one. Nothing wrong with that. We are both right, just in different ways/scenarios.

Not all scopes have a zero stop. When you are using a single scope for multiple calibers, you have floating  zeroes. A zero for .308 may be x amount of clicks off the bottom while a 300BLK zero may be y clicks.This is why you(I) write them down
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Potss
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« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2017, 06:44:34 PM »

A conversion kit is like an upper for an AR, which is all .300blk needs.  You can build a .300blk AR which will be lighter than the MDR for the cost of a conversion kit, and upper even more so.  And I'm including an appropriate optic in that.  The MDR makes less than no sense in .300blk UNLESS it is in the "C" version.  Otherwise you are far better off with an AR in 300blk.  However unless you reload I wouldn't even recommend the .300blk AR.

Also I cannot think of a situation in which you would want a .300blk in "combat" over a plethora of superior calibers.
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Ascinder
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« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2017, 07:17:21 PM »

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The MDR makes less than no sense in .300blk UNLESS it is in the "C" version.

Welcome to the whole point of this thread Roll Eyes

Quote
Also I cannot think of a situation in which you would want a .300blk in "combat" over a plethora of superior calibers.

Depends on the combat, but I'd love to hear some justifications/examples of your reasoning on this. If you look at the previous comments, I have made my reasoning pretty clear on it.
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45r
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« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2017, 11:26:49 PM »

They should downsize the platform like the AR-10 to M-16.
Getting to old to lug heavy rifles around.
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« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2017, 11:44:40 PM »

They should downsize the platform like the AR-10 to M-16.
Getting to old to lug heavy rifles around.

Given the MDR's design, I think that weight savings would probably be less than expected.  You might save a couple ounces by shortening the stock by about a centimeter, but that's about it.  You could narrow the mag well, but I'm not sure how much weight you'll save there.
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Kurt
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