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Author Topic: 300BLK, what's the deal?  (Read 1729 times)
Ascinder
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« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2017, 04:35:09 PM »

That was a really good read. Thanks.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2017, 06:44:48 PM »

.308 also punches through many barriers easier. Urban or otherwise. 300BLK though is just nice because its quiet and  supposed to be compact. In this make believe urban scenario, let's say you come up on someone taking fire from an obvious group of assailants. With a suppressed 300BLK, you can whittle their numbers down with ease, while maintaining concealment. Arguable, you could do the same with other calibers, but you're still going to have a smaller, quieter, more effective package with the blackout. Plus, scavenging is great because you can scrounge cases/primers and mags from .223, and bullets from 7.62x39, .308, and 30-06. The 10" 300BLK conversion would take up almost no space or weight in a pack either. It's a good counterpoint to .308 I think because there are the just the right amounts of similarities and differences.

Don't put 7.62x39 or 7.62x54 bullets in american 308 guns or 300blk.  The Russians use .312 diameter bullets, not .308.   It could cause a huge pressure spike resulting in a kaboom.



Also, hate to be this guy but... 300blks main advantage is it uses 308 bullets compared to 7.62x39 using .312 diameter bullets.  So it makes it easier for Americans to load and use components for.
  If 7.62x39 used .308 diameter bullets, the caliber would be superior to 300blk.  7.62x39 has 35gr h20 case capacity compared to 300blks 25gr h20 case capacity, also the case dimensions of 7.62x39 are better designed to aid in extraction due to the tapered design.
300blk has the advantages of being able to use 223 bolts and mags, but in regards to ballistic performance, 7.62x39 has the edge mechanically speaking.  The reason most 7.62x39 is considered inaccurate is because it's mostly just crappily loaded steel case ammo being shot from comblock weapons.  When it really comes down to it mechanically speaking 7.62x39 is superior to 300blk in every regard aside from being able to use 223 bolts and 223 magazines.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2017, 06:56:39 PM »

.308 also punches through many barriers easier. Urban or otherwise. 300BLK though is just nice because its quiet and  supposed to be compact. In this make believe urban scenario, let's say you come up on someone taking fire from an obvious group of assailants. With a suppressed 300BLK, you can whittle their numbers down with ease, while maintaining concealment. Arguable, you could do the same with other calibers, but you're still going to have a smaller, quieter, more effective package with the blackout. Plus, scavenging is great because you can scrounge cases/primers and mags from .223, and bullets from 7.62x39, .308, and 30-06. The 10" 300BLK conversion would take up almost no space or weight in a pack either. It's a good counterpoint to .308 I think because there are the just the right amounts of similarities and differences.

Don't put 7.62x39 or 7.62x54 bullets in american 308 guns or 300blk.  The Russians use .312 diameter bullets, not .308.   It could cause a huge pressure spike resulting in a kaboom.



Also, hate to be this guy but... 300blks main advantage is it uses 308 bullets compared to 7.62x39 using .312 diameter bullets.  So it makes it easier for Americans to load and use components for.
  If 7.62x39 used .308 diameter bullets, the caliber would be superior to 300blk.  7.62x39 has 35gr h20 case capacity compared to 300blks 25gr h20 case capacity, also the case dimensions of 7.62x39 are better designed to aid in extraction due to the tapered design.
300blk has the advantages of being able to use 223 bolts and mags, but in regards to ballistic performance, 7.62x39 has the edge mechanically speaking.  The reason most 7.62x39 is considered inaccurate is because it's mostly just crappily loaded steel case ammo being shot from comblock weapons.  When it really comes down to it mechanically speaking 7.62x39 is superior to 300blk in every regard aside from being able to use 223 bolts and 223 magazines.


Just want to add 300blk has 7.62x39 beat be the margin of modularity... I really wish the russians would have used .308 bullets instead of .312, because if they did we would be shooting subsonic suppressed AR15's much cheaper, much longer ago.   


I'm not saying one or the other is a better purchase because that is a subjective argument.  I'm just saying that mechanically speaking, 7.62x39 has a better potential for higher performance ballistics...  Grin
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45r
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« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2017, 07:43:24 PM »

Long time ago there was a sign where we were getting trained that said if you can be seen or heard you could be killed.
300blk helps the quiet part better than the other options.
You can take advantage of any kind of noise to mask your shots and not give up your location.
That helps not being seen.
There are many other things that make sense with the Blackout.
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2017, 07:57:40 PM »

Also, hate to be this guy but... 300blks main advantage is it uses 308 bullets compared to 7.62x39 using .312 diameter bullets.  So it makes it easier for Americans to load and use components for.
  If 7.62x39 used .308 diameter bullets, the caliber would be superior to 300blk.  7.62x39 has 35gr h20 case capacity compared to 300blks 25gr h20 case capacity, also the case dimensions of 7.62x39 are better designed to aid in extraction due to the tapered design.
300blk has the advantages of being able to use 223 bolts and mags, but in regards to ballistic performance, 7.62x39 has the edge mechanically speaking.  The reason most 7.62x39 is considered inaccurate is because it's mostly just crappily loaded steel case ammo being shot from comblock weapons.  When it really comes down to it mechanically speaking 7.62x39 is superior to 300blk in every regard aside from being able to use 223 bolts and 223 magazines.

Don't say that around 7n6...
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Kurt
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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2017, 08:08:47 PM »

range being the handicap with 300blkout...

anyway, good read below...

http://www.swggun.org/300-blackout-vs-308/

The author lost me after two points were mentioned:

1:  The 7.62x51mm NATO was a "short lived" round...It is still in service after ~65 years. 

2.  When he arbitrarily selected 7lbs as the weight for the rifle in the calculations.  If it was apples to apples, it would probably have been closer to 8lbs for the .308 and 6lbs for the .300 if in AR form, or about half a pound or so less if bolt guns.
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Kurt
Ascinder
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« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2017, 08:13:52 PM »

Quote
Don't put 7.62x39 or 7.62x54 bullets in american 308 guns or 300blk.  The Russians use .312 diameter bullets, not .308.   It could cause a huge pressure spike resulting in a kaboom.

Good disclaimer, but everyone should know you just run them though a sizer. It would be part of the reloading process.If you don't know what you are doing, you have no business reloading rounds.

In some cases(like suppressed or recoil for instance) having the lower powered case is a benefit. With 300BLK, you have good short to low intermediate range, .308 you have good intermediate to long range. 7.62x39 sucks because it has higher than necessary recoil at short range and its accuracy falls off sharply in the majority of it's platforms at intermediate ranges. At long ranges it's a semi automatic mosin nagant for all its worth. It isn't a terrible round, but it's time has simply come and gone compared to modern rounds. It's only relevance is the intersection of availability and durability of it's platforms.
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Ascinder
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2017, 08:21:19 PM »

Quote
The author lost me after two points were mentioned:

1:  The 7.62x51mm NATO was a "short lived" round...It is still in service after ~65 years. 

To be honest I skipped the histories. I came for the comparisons, not another take on the history of a cartridge. It is an idiodic statement.

Quote
2.  When he arbitrarily selected 7lbs as the weight for the rifle in the calculations.  If it was apples to apples, it would probably have been closer to 8lbs for the .308 and 6lbs for the .300 if in AR form, or about half a pound or so less if bolt guns.

Valid point, you would likely be using different rifles for each caliber, but in our case, it kind of makes sense(too bad he didn't use 8.5). You can always run numbers yourself to adjust for weight though.

To me, the article highlighted exactly what I see: one caliber covers down on the weaknesses of the other and vice versa.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2017, 09:45:42 PM »

Quote
Don't put 7.62x39 or 7.62x54 bullets in american 308 guns or 300blk.  The Russians use .312 diameter bullets, not .308.   It could cause a huge pressure spike resulting in a kaboom.

Good disclaimer, but everyone should know you just run them though a sizer. It would be part of the reloading process.If you don't know what you are doing, you have no business reloading rounds.

In some cases(like suppressed or recoil for instance) having the lower powered case is a benefit. With 300BLK, you have good short to low intermediate range, .308 you have good intermediate to long range. 7.62x39 sucks because it has higher than necessary recoil at short range and its accuracy falls off sharply in the majority of it's platforms at intermediate ranges. At long ranges it's a semi automatic mosin nagant for all its worth. It isn't a terrible round, but it's time has simply come and gone compared to modern rounds. It's only relevance is the intersection of availability and durability of it's platforms.

Yup I don't disagree with any of that.

In my opinion...

I think the future is in 6mm diameter bullet designs.  The most accurate gun I've ever shot is a .243.
There is something magic about the areodynamics of 6mm bullets in the 80-120gr weight range.  Their ballistic coeffs are amazing.  In regards to long range and overall performance, the 6mm designs are superior to that of both .22 and .308 counterparts; not only in ballistic performance, but also in felt recoil for the energy put down range.  Rifle parts would also suffer less abuse and last longer than 556 and 308 components.
One day our military will come to understand this, but for the time being we are so heavily invested in 308 and 556 that I don't see the 6mm being a standard infantry rifle any time soon.... Which is unfortunate.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2017, 09:46:45 PM »

Also, hate to be this guy but... 300blks main advantage is it uses 308 bullets compared to 7.62x39 using .312 diameter bullets.  So it makes it easier for Americans to load and use components for.
  If 7.62x39 used .308 diameter bullets, the caliber would be superior to 300blk.  7.62x39 has 35gr h20 case capacity compared to 300blks 25gr h20 case capacity, also the case dimensions of 7.62x39 are better designed to aid in extraction due to the tapered design.
300blk has the advantages of being able to use 223 bolts and mags, but in regards to ballistic performance, 7.62x39 has the edge mechanically speaking.  The reason most 7.62x39 is considered inaccurate is because it's mostly just crappily loaded steel case ammo being shot from comblock weapons.  When it really comes down to it mechanically speaking 7.62x39 is superior to 300blk in every regard aside from being able to use 223 bolts and 223 magazines.

Don't say that around 7n6...

... But how does 300blk perform when fired underwater?  LOL
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2017, 10:00:12 PM »

Long time ago there was a sign where we were getting trained that said if you can be seen or heard you could be killed.
300blk helps the quiet part better than the other options.
You can take advantage of any kind of noise to mask your shots and not give up your location.
That helps not being seen.
There are many other things that make sense with the Blackout.


Just to throw gas on the fire... stir the pot

A subsonic 300blk load isn't going to perform any better than a subsonic 9mm load... Sure it might be a little heavier, but 308 bullets aren't designed to expand at subsonic velocity.. 9mm bullets are, and they have a larger overall diameter..  300blk might be a little more accurate for about 25-50 yards, but that is really a moot point because all subsonic ammo is only good for short range... Doesn't matter what caliber you are shooting, it is going to drop like a rock past ~75 yards.

Subsonic 300blk generates ~ 400 foot pounds at the muzzle
Subsonic 9mm generates ~ 350 foot pounds at the muzzle

Does 50 extra foot pounds really matter when the 9mm bullet is going to expand twice as large as the 308 bullet at a subsonic velocity?

Is a 300blk going to shoot any less loud or more deadly than a 9mm?

I like 300blk, but for the cost ratio I can't really justify it over say a suppressed PCC... If 300BLK had factory ammo that compared in price to pistol or 556 ammo, I would be much more interested.  I reload a ton, but I don't want all my blasting ammo to just be handloads... I like to blast factory ammo, then pick up that brass to reload the special stuff.

The whole concept is kind of a double edge sword..  Because..
300blk is pretty much a rich mans game, the cost for ammo is not going to decrease unless more people start shooting it.. But more people don't want to shoot it because it is so expensive.
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Kublah
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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2017, 10:07:38 PM »


A subsonic 300blk load isn't going to perform any better than a subsonic 9mm load... Sure it might be a little heavier, but 308 bullets aren't designed to expand at subsonic velocity.. 9mm bullets are, and they have a larger overall diameter..  300blk might be a little more accurate for about 25-50 yards, but that is really a moot point because all subsonic ammo is only good for short range... Doesn't matter what caliber you are shooting, it is going to drop like a rock past ~75 yards.

Just going to leave this here...
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/products/300-aac-blackout-whisper-194gr-subsonic-maximum-expansion-ammo
and since this is a MAC thread... Whoops, been lurking too much lately.
https://youtu.be/-GyOsWuYPV0?t=429
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 10:12:13 PM by Kublah » Logged
RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2017, 10:17:02 PM »


A subsonic 300blk load isn't going to perform any better than a subsonic 9mm load... Sure it might be a little heavier, but 308 bullets aren't designed to expand at subsonic velocity.. 9mm bullets are, and they have a larger overall diameter..  300blk might be a little more accurate for about 25-50 yards, but that is really a moot point because all subsonic ammo is only good for short range... Doesn't matter what caliber you are shooting, it is going to drop like a rock past ~75 yards.

Just going to leave this here...
https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/products/300-aac-blackout-whisper-194gr-subsonic-maximum-expansion-ammo
and since this is a MAC thread... Whoops, been lurking too much lately.
https://youtu.be/-GyOsWuYPV0?t=429


That is cool.. But it costs about 2$ a round  Undecided
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2017, 04:01:52 AM »

Yes, it does look like you get fairly close results to 9mm IF (and that's a mighty small word to carry such weight) you stay subsonic and are fairly close in weight. But, for subsonic loads, a 220 grain bullet is fairly common in the 300, which can quite a bit more energy than even a 147 grain 9mm. And when you're willing to go supersonic, the 300 has significantly longer legs than 9mm can ever manage.
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cjgemm
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2017, 09:57:31 AM »

Or there is this:

http://www.shopalexanderarms.com/Ammunition-_300_AAC_Blackout_180g_HP_Subsonic.html
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HBeretta
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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2017, 10:45:23 AM »

The author lost me after two points were mentioned:

1:  The 7.62x51mm NATO was a "short lived" round...It is still in service after ~65 years.  

2.  When he arbitrarily selected 7lbs as the weight for the rifle in the calculations.  If it was apples to apples, it would probably have been closer to 8lbs for the .308 and 6lbs for the .300 if in AR form, or about half a pound or so less if bolt guns.

Kurt you're taking out of context here; author did state for 'infantry' use - unless you want to fill me in on m14 vs m16 history here that i'm unaware of...nor is it implied it's no longer in service in the article.

Also how does standardizing with a 7lb rifle, especially with regard to cartridge recoil comparisons, void data points/calculations as you seemingly imply?    
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2017, 12:56:18 PM »

The author lost me after two points were mentioned:

1:  The 7.62x51mm NATO was a "short lived" round...It is still in service after ~65 years.  

2.  When he arbitrarily selected 7lbs as the weight for the rifle in the calculations.  If it was apples to apples, it would probably have been closer to 8lbs for the .308 and 6lbs for the .300 if in AR form, or about half a pound or so less if bolt guns.

Kurt you're taking out of context here; author did state for 'infantry' use - unless you want to fill me in on m14 vs m16 history here that i'm unaware of...nor is it implied it's no longer in service in the article.

Also how does standardizing with a 7lb rifle, especially with regard to cartridge recoil comparisons, void data points/calculations as you seemingly imply?    

7.62x51mm was used by most of NATO in the FAL or G3 until the 80s or early 90s, and is still used by some third world nations in this primary rifle.  It is still used by the US and NATO, not to mention those third world countries, in their LMGs such as the MAG-58/M-240, MG-3, and others. 

Regarding recoil, part of the reason why a .308 bolt action weighs what it does is due to the action's size and overall larger size of the rifle. A 300BO uses a smaller action and thus weighs less.  If you use the common platform that the 300BO uses most often, the AR, the difference is still there and is somewhat more than the bolt guns. 
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Kurt
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« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2017, 01:29:41 PM »

I don't understand the interest in a .300blk or 5.56 for that matter that weighs over 8.5 lbs... Maybe for folks that just shoot at the range. Anyone that has actually carried their rifle any distance in the field knows there are better options out there (300blk SBR AR-15). In my eye's the MDR is only useful and unique in the .308/6.5CM cartridge family. Just my opinion though.
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2017, 01:56:29 PM »

7.62x51mm was used by most of NATO in the FAL or G3 until the 80s or early 90s, and is still used by some third world nations in this primary rifle.  It is still used by the US and NATO, not to mention those third world countries, in their LMGs such as the MAG-58/M-240, MG-3, and others.

When I read that part my initial knee jerk was that it was a dumb statement because the .308 is still in use. But then I remembered that the .308 stopped being the primary NATO round with the introduction of the M-16. I'm willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt on that front.
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Ascinder
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« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2017, 02:12:28 PM »

Quote
I don't understand the interest in a .300blk or 5.56 for that matter that weighs over 8.5 lbs... Maybe for folks that just shoot at the range. Anyone that has actually carried their rifle any distance in the field knows there are better options out there (300blk SBR AR-15). In my eye's the MDR is only useful and unique in the .308/6.5CM cartridge family. Just my opinion though.

Because a 10" 300 BLK conversion kit weighs a lot less than an additional, stand alone rifle system. 300BLK is also a lot quieter suppressed and has higher ammo density than .308 or 6.5CM. If you are in anywhere besides open country, a short to intermediate range round makes more sense. For a truck gun or home defense gun it makes more sense. People who want versatility, coupled with everything else the MDR bringa to the table are the ones interested in these other rounds.
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