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Author Topic: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.  (Read 2975 times)
Clarke-Sensei
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« Reply #120 on: September 09, 2017, 09:53:01 PM »

Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years.

And yet you give no credence to the structured and repeatable tests conducted by the military and independent testing agencies and cling to tests that have no real applicability.  You cherry pick a couple items and then focus on them to the exclusion of all else.  All criteria must be considered.
^ This. Anecdotal instances of performance.
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scstrain
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« Reply #121 on: September 10, 2017, 02:38:02 AM »




Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.
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7n6
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« Reply #122 on: September 10, 2017, 03:18:56 AM »

Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years.

And yet you give no credence to the structured and repeatable tests conducted by the military and independent testing agencies and cling to tests that have no real applicability.  You cherry pick a couple items and then focus on them to the exclusion of all else.  All criteria must be considered.


Anything tested by the military can be subjective. For instance when they first tested the M4 against the HK 416 they were counting the three round burst cog not resetting as failures in order to promote the 416. As well as the fact that the Colt rifles used for the test were essentially worn out older weapons before that test even began. So Colt decided to have their rifles tested independently with new firearms later in the fall with people who understood how the burst mechanism worked. Suddenly Colt had well over 60% drop in malfunctions placing them on par with the HK 416.


Here is some military testing- no bias at all. LOL.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1tV2nsGoM


7n6



« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 01:47:08 PM by 7n6 » Logged
kfeltenberger
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« Reply #123 on: September 10, 2017, 07:13:46 PM »

Throughout this thread I've posted evidence of AK's firing underwater, AK's firing after being dropped in sandy water, AK's firing filled with sand, AK's shooting 1 MOA groups, even AK's functioning having been shot full of holes or covered in rust from being buried for eighteen years.

And yet you give no credence to the structured and repeatable tests conducted by the military and independent testing agencies and cling to tests that have no real applicability.  You cherry pick a couple items and then focus on them to the exclusion of all else.  All criteria must be considered.

Anything tested by the military can be subjective. For instance when they first tested the M4 against the HK 416 they were counting the three round burst cog not resetting as failures in order to promote the 416. As well as the fact that the Colt rifles used for the test were essentially worn out older weapons before that test even began. So Colt decided to have their rifles tested independently with new firearms later in the fall with people who understood how the burst mechanism worked. Suddenly Colt had well over 60% drop in malfunctions placing them on par with the HK 416.

Here is some military testing- no bias at all. LOL.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr1tV2nsGoM

7n6

You missed the key point of my argument, 7n6; the tests are structured and repeatable.  They're also conducted under controlled conditions so that the test results are valid based on the methodology that is used.

Regarding the M4 v. HK 416 and the 3rd Burst issue, depending on how you want to view it, that could be viewed as a deficiency because the expectation is that when it is set to 3rd burst, you will get 3 rounds fired when the trigger is pulled.  When that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, it could be considered a failure.  The context and metrics of the test need to be considered when viewing the final results.  If the metrics lay out specific criteria and for whatever reason those criteria aren't met, then it can be reasonably viewed as the weapon failing the test.

This isn't to say that the weapon is bad, just that based on the test metrics, the rifle didn't pass.

Dropping your rifle from the third floor, running it over with a truck, shooting it underwater, those are all unscientific tests unless you have documented the "how" (i.e. how the test will be performed, the environmental conditions, etc.) and the metrics for passing/failing.  Simply going all "redneck science" isn't repeatable and IMO, is worthless except for anecdotal discussion.
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Kurt
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« Reply #124 on: September 10, 2017, 09:01:30 PM »




Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 LOL
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #125 on: September 10, 2017, 10:45:08 PM »

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I'm beginning to think that being triggered, offended, or intentionally taking things out of context is the new way of showing affection. 
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Kurt
7n6
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« Reply #126 on: September 11, 2017, 12:50:54 AM »


You missed the key point of my argument, 7n6; the tests are structured and repeatable.  They're also conducted under controlled conditions so that the test results are valid based on the methodology that is used.

Regarding the M4 v. HK 416 and the 3rd Burst issue, depending on how you want to view it, that could be viewed as a deficiency because the expectation is that when it is set to 3rd burst, you will get 3 rounds fired when the trigger is pulled.  When that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, it could be considered a failure.  The context and metrics of the test need to be considered when viewing the final results.  If the metrics lay out specific criteria and for whatever reason those criteria aren't met, then it can be reasonably viewed as the weapon failing the test.

This isn't to say that the weapon is bad, just that based on the test metrics, the rifle didn't pass.

Dropping your rifle from the third floor, running it over with a truck, shooting it underwater, those are all unscientific tests unless you have documented the "how" (i.e. how the test will be performed, the environmental conditions, etc.) and the metrics for passing/failing.  Simply going all "redneck science" isn't repeatable and IMO, is worthless except for anecdotal discussion.


I understand the purpose of using scientific testing to have more metered results. However structured lab tests with firearms especially are often times biased simply because contracts are on the line or the brass wants a new firearm. The weapons are pre-selected by the companies seeking a contract in order to pass those pre-determined tests. The reason I like the redneck type tests is simply because I know those rifles are store bought off the shelf weapons. The backyard type testing is simply done for the sake of curiosity. It isn't scientific but it does a hell of job of highlighting design flaws. 

7n6
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scstrain
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« Reply #127 on: September 11, 2017, 01:33:22 AM »




Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 LOL


Where I come from people do not have to hide behind a computer keyboard like you do to act tough. Like I have said, shows a major lack of Character.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 01:36:29 AM by scstrain » Logged
Clarke-Sensei
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« Reply #128 on: September 11, 2017, 01:52:07 AM »


You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 LOL

You know, Rabbit. Just because people you know accept that, doesn't mean everyone else has to. Not everyone has to be some machismo-laden hard-ass to get by in life. Ease up on the testosterone.
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #129 on: September 11, 2017, 08:16:00 AM »

Here's a followup video to InRange TV's mud test of the AR. This time, Karl shows how he cleaned his AK.

https://www.full30.com/video/dbf7d783054e6cdc442fa1f71048882d
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7n6
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« Reply #130 on: September 11, 2017, 02:37:48 PM »

Here's a followup video to InRange TV's mud test of the AR. This time, Karl shows how he cleaned his AK.

https://www.full30.com/video/dbf7d783054e6cdc442fa1f71048882d


Only downside about that ammo is having to run water through the rifle.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 03:38:20 PM by 7n6 » Logged
RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #131 on: September 11, 2017, 05:22:47 PM »




Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 LOL


Where I come from people do not have to hide behind a computer keyboard like you do to act tough. Like I have said, shows a major lack of Character.

 LOL  You wouldn't last one single day in my shoes.

Look at yourself and this conversation.   OP was making false statements in regard to this topic about guns, I called him out for making false statements about guns, perhaps in a vulgar manner, but still on topic...
  Then you had to come out with the feelings brigade and just get into a personal pissing match because I used vulgar words.  Really?  Do you get offended and bleed out of your mangina everytime you hear someone use a vulgar word?  Do you wear a manbun and have a ''coexist'' sticker on the back of your subaru?
LuLs go back to your safe space.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 05:39:54 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged
RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #132 on: September 11, 2017, 05:29:17 PM »

double tap
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 07:22:31 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged
scstrain
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« Reply #133 on: September 11, 2017, 07:28:00 PM »




Hey little man, since you are into posting definitions, here is what you are:

Narcissistic person:  A person that has an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.



 LOL
I'm not a beta male snowflake like you, so you're going to have to a lot harder if you want to offend me.
I looked up the definition of your screen name and this is what I found.

scstrain
Pronounced BAE-Ta-Male
"Beta males usually lack an alpha mentor like a father figure or a good role model. The masculine father figure was replaced by a women that raised her boy into a beta male. This caused boys growing into men to believe that a women's definition of a man was right. And any other idea of a man was wrong."


Makes sense since you get offended like a little b!tch by the word ******.  Do statues offend you too?
   LOL




You just keep proving my points about your lack of character.  And others are noticing it too.


Lol

You know man, where I come from...
Grown men can insult each other and be vulgar without being offended and taking things so seriously...  it's almost a way of showing affection.

I actually like op, his persistence signifies inner strength which I respect...

You however just remind me of a liberal... let me guess  you're "with her"?
 LOL


Where I come from people do not have to hide behind a computer keyboard like you do to act tough. Like I have said, shows a major lack of Character.

 LOL  You wouldn't last one single day in my shoes.

Look at yourself and this conversation.   OP was making false statements in regard to this topic about guns, I called him out for making false statements about guns, perhaps in a vulgar manner, but still on topic...
  Then you had to come out with the feelings brigade and just get into a personal pissing match because I used vulgar words.  Really?  Do you get offended and bleed out of your mangina everytime you hear someone use a vulgar word?  Do you wear a manbun and have a ''coexist'' sticker on the back of your subaru?
LuLs go back to your safe space.





You are an amazingly simple little man.  You just keep on hiding behind that key board and continue to get ranker and ranker.  It is really amusing to watch people like you pump themselves up acting tough in cyber space.  I am enjoying it.   ROFLMAO


Please,  Please keep proving my points.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:16:10 PM by scstrain » Logged
RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #134 on: September 11, 2017, 07:47:06 PM »

Edit:

I'm done responding to you scstrain out of respect to the other members in this thread.  In reality scstrain I think you're b!tchmade, and I'll leave it at that.

At the end of the day I doubt I would have any problems with anyone here in real life.  Ya'll have a nice day.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 08:28:24 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged
scstrain
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« Reply #135 on: September 11, 2017, 08:53:39 PM »

Edit:

I'm done responding to you scstrain out of respect to the other members in this thread.  In reality scstrain I think you're b!tchmade, and I'll leave it at that.

At the end of the day I doubt I would have any problems with anyone here in real life.  Ya'll have a nice day.




If you really cared about anyone on this forum you would quit your over the top macho and stop your foolish verbal attacks.  I am not the only one that notices it. 
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #136 on: September 12, 2017, 12:12:01 AM »

I understand the purpose of using scientific testing to have more metered results. However structured lab tests with firearms especially are often times biased simply because contracts are on the line or the brass wants a new firearm. The weapons are pre-selected by the companies seeking a contract in order to pass those pre-determined tests. The reason I like the redneck type tests is simply because I know those rifles are store bought off the shelf weapons. The backyard type testing is simply done for the sake of curiosity. It isn't scientific but it does a hell of job of highlighting design flaws. 

7n6

The tests are done to specific criteria often created by a committee, so don't throw out controlled testing because the metrics and processes don't agree with your opinions.  When you look at military testing, especially when they're testing potential purchases against each other, they need to be done to the letter of the test and in many cases, the vendors can lodge protests if they feel the tests and criteria weren't fair to their product.

Unless the test is repeatable, it's worthless and a waste of time as anything other than an anecdote.

You discuss shooting under water, being dropped, and all sorts of other inane things, yet when you look at the firearm the Tier-1 units are using in the non Russian/Chinese sphere and you'll see almost in every case, some version of the M-16/M-4.  Even in countries where they have a different service rifle - sometimes an AK derivative, they choose the M-16/M-4.  Real world use does not support your position, 7n6.  These are groups that have the resources to use whatever they want, and they aren't choosing the AK.

But...like my dog this afternoon, this is nothing more than going around and around chasing the tail...
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Kurt
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« Reply #137 on: September 13, 2017, 03:35:12 PM »



The tests are done to specific criteria often created by a committee, so don't throw out controlled testing because the metrics and processes don't agree with your opinions.  When you look at military testing, especially when they're testing potential purchases against each other, they need to be done to the letter of the test and in many cases, the vendors can lodge protests if they feel the tests and criteria weren't fair to their product.

Unless the test is repeatable, it's worthless and a waste of time as anything other than an anecdote.

You discuss shooting under water, being dropped, and all sorts of other inane things, yet when you look at the firearm the Tier-1 units are using in the non Russian/Chinese sphere and you'll see almost in every case, some version of the M-16/M-4.  Even in countries where they have a different service rifle - sometimes an AK derivative, they choose the M-16/M-4.  Real world use does not support your position, 7n6.  These are groups that have the resources to use whatever they want, and they aren't choosing the AK.

But...like my dog this afternoon, this is nothing more than going around and around chasing the tail...


The tests they come up are just some metrics to measure firearms against other but they also eliminate test procedures that would otherwise destroy certain rifles being tested. Example, no over the beach style tests if using M4's, no real drop tests either etc. Doesn't mean that the competitors don't rig weapons being used in order to achieve certain outcomes- as has been shown in the past.

As far as top tier units wanting compatibility of arms with eachother- it's just that, compatibility. If I was heavily supported running a short operation- I'd probably choose the more ergonomic easier to outfit M16 style weapon as well. Especially when that weapon has the supply lines, armorers, support, and accessories running premium ammo etc.


7n6
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 04:51:51 PM by 7n6 » Logged
kfeltenberger
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« Reply #138 on: September 13, 2017, 07:06:03 PM »

The tests they come up are just some metrics to measure firearms against other but they also eliminate test procedures that would otherwise destroy certain rifles being tested. Example, no over the beach style tests if using M4's, no real drop tests either etc. Doesn't mean that the competitors don't rig weapons being used in order to achieve certain outcomes- as has been shown in the past.

So in other words, what you're trying to say without coming out and saying it is that the NATO trials tests are worthless.  Does that sound about right?

I think that every time the SEALs deploy from a sub and make landfall that they validate the M-4 for over the beach work.  They've been working for decades, probably longer than you've been alive, so I think they're pretty well validated.  As for the other tests, drop tests have been done; it's a basic part of reliability testing.

As far as top tier units wanting compatibility of arms with eachother- it's just that, compatibility. If I was heavily supported running a short operation- I'd probably choose the more ergonomic easier to outfit M16 style weapon as well. Especially when that weapon has the supply lines, armorers, support, and accessories running premium ammo etc.

Whoever brought up the word "compatibility"?  I simply stated that when they were given a choice, they chose the AR pattern rifle.  Compatibility may play a part, but I don't think that it's foremost in their minds when they chose a weapon before going over the wire.

You really need to step back and divorce yourself from the biases you're bringing to the table, otherwise you will never be able to make a rational comparison.
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Kurt
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« Reply #139 on: September 14, 2017, 06:37:06 AM »


So in other words, what you're trying to say without coming out and saying it is that the NATO trials tests are worthless.  Does that sound about right?

I think that every time the SEALs deploy from a sub and make landfall that they validate the M-4 for over the beach work.  They've been working for decades, probably longer than you've been alive, so I think they're pretty well validated.  As for the other tests, drop tests have been done; it's a basic part of reliability testing.



Whoever brought up the word "compatibility"?  I simply stated that when they were given a choice, they chose the AR pattern rifle.  Compatibility may play a part, but I don't think that it's foremost in their minds when they chose a weapon before going over the wire.

You really need to step back and divorce yourself from the biases you're bringing to the table, otherwise you will never be able to make a rational comparison.


If anything I brought up wasn't true then we wouldn't be looking for a piston replacement carbine.

7n6


« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:15:13 AM by 7n6 » Logged
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