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| | |-+  Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.
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Author Topic: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.  (Read 36885 times)
EWTHeckman
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« Reply #140 on: September 14, 2017, 08:15:13 AM »

Somebody wake me when this thread is over.
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #141 on: September 14, 2017, 12:29:55 PM »

If anything I brought up wasn't true then we wouldn't be looking for a piston replacement carbine.

7n6

One does not follow, imply, or prove the other.

Here's the bottom line, 7n6; you started the thread looking for validation of your opinion and despite reasoned explanation and examples to the contrary, you still trot out cherry picked and anecdotal, non-repeatable, "tests" and criteria that really don't make any sense.  You then dismiss controlled testing, testing that is actually repeatable and based on established service requirements, and wave them off as "biased".

The only real bias I see here is yours and your desperate need for validation.  We've led your horse to water, but I think that's all we'll do.  Only you can take a drink.
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Kurt
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« Reply #142 on: September 14, 2017, 04:56:05 PM »

I have followed this thread and can't believe the moderators didn't lock it down 3 pages ago. 7n6 is never going to be convinced that the AK isn't the best firearm on the planet and I am chuckling at all the concerted effort to prove him wrong.  It was his question but he really isn't looking for an answer.  I suspect that 7n6 just likes to Fire people up.  So, unless he is talking about the Saiga bullpup conversion why do we even argue this topic on a forum presumably dedicated to bullpups?  7n6 trolled kfeltenberger and rabbitslayer hard in this thread and scstrain is ready to kill for 7n6.  What a wasted effort but a fun read.  As for me, I like all guns and depending on what you are using it for determines which gun is best for that role. Sometimes size, weight, caliber, capacity, precision, and reliability play different roles base on what you are planning to do. This thread is like a born again Christian trying to convince a diehard atheist that there is a God. Ain't gonna happen in this thread that's for sure.  

Thanks for the humorous read!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 04:57:37 PM by st381 » Logged
Clarke-Sensei
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« Reply #143 on: September 14, 2017, 05:00:12 PM »

I have followed this thread and can't believe the moderators didn't lock it down 3 pages ago. 7n6 is never going to be convinced that the AK isn't the best firearm on the planet and I am chuckling at all the concerted effort to prove him wrong.  It was his question but he really isn't looking for an answer.  I suspect that 7n6 just likes to Fire people up.  So, unless he is talking about the Saiga bullpup conversion why do we even argue this topic on a forum presumably dedicated to bullpups?  7n6 trolled kfeltenberger and rabbitslayer hard in this thread and scstrain is ready to kill for 7n6.  What a wasted effort but a fun read.  As for me, I like all guns and depending on what you are using it for determines which gun is best for that role. Sometimes size, weight, caliber, capacity, precision, and reliability play different roles base on what you are planning to do. This thread is like a born again Christian trying to convince a diehard atheist that there is a God. Ain't gonna happen in this thread that's for sure.  

Thanks for the humorous read!

I'd say it's more like a group of atheists trying to convince a die hard Christian that there is no God. 7n6 is the one with his faith firmly set in his ways.

Definitely have to agree on role appropriate firearms.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 05:03:57 PM by Clarke-Sensei » Logged
st381
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« Reply #144 on: September 14, 2017, 05:04:00 PM »

I have followed this thread and can't believe the moderators didn't lock it down 3 pages ago. 7n6 is never going to be convinced that the AK isn't the best firearm on the planet and I am chuckling at all the concerted effort to prove him wrong.  It was his question but he really isn't looking for an answer.  I suspect that 7n6 just likes to Fire people up.  So, unless he is talking about the Saiga bullpup conversion why do we even argue this topic on a forum presumably dedicated to bullpups?  7n6 trolled kfeltenberger and rabbitslayer hard in this thread and scstrain is ready to kill for 7n6.  What a wasted effort but a fun read.  As for me, I like all guns and depending on what you are using it for determines which gun is best for that role. Sometimes size, weight, caliber, capacity, precision, and reliability play different roles base on what you are planning to do. This thread is like a born again Christian trying to convince a diehard atheist that there is a God. Ain't gonna happen in this thread that's for sure. 

Thanks for the humorous read!

I'd say it's more like a group of atheists trying to convince a die hard Christian that there is no God. 7n6 is the one with his faith firmly set in his ways.
Fair point🤔
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7n6
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« Reply #145 on: September 14, 2017, 05:36:48 PM »

If anything I brought up wasn't true then we wouldn't be looking for a piston replacement carbine.

7n6

One does not follow, imply, or prove the other.

Here's the bottom line, 7n6; you started the thread looking for validation of your opinion and despite reasoned explanation and examples to the contrary, you still trot out cherry picked and anecdotal, non-repeatable, "tests" and criteria that really don't make any sense.  You then dismiss controlled testing, testing that is actually repeatable and based on established service requirements, and wave them off as "biased".

The only real bias I see here is yours and your desperate need for validation.  We've led your horse to water, but I think that's all we'll do.  Only you can take a drink.


I don't rule out controlled testing, quite the contrary. However even you have to admit that when they decided to test worn out M4's versus vendor provided 416's- that proves my point that controlled testing can be biased.

Anyway, throughout this thread I simply was looking to find another firearm that can A.) fire underwater and B.) survive a 10 foot or higher drop onto concrete outside of the aging Kalashnikov.


7n6
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 06:41:11 PM by 7n6 » Logged
RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #146 on: September 14, 2017, 06:31:22 PM »

^
Several firearms have been discussed & linked in this thread that can fire underwater and or survive the over the beach tests.  You just dismissed them, and made false claims against them.  You really discredited yourself by making false statements about a few firearms.

Not like it even matters, there is no legit reason to ever shoot a gun underwater, and shooting a gun underwater is not a demonstration of reliability or durability.  However there are dozens of guns that can be fired with water in the actions without causing any catostrophic malfunctions.


There are also tons of guns that can survive 10 foot drops.


You just dismiss all this because it doesn't meet your agenda, and you make wild/false claims.  That is why it is hard for anyone to take you seriously at this point.
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7n6
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« Reply #147 on: September 14, 2017, 06:40:05 PM »

^
Several firearms have been discussed & linked in this thread that can fire underwater and or survive the over the beach tests.  You just dismissed them, and made false claims against them.  You really discredited yourself by making false statements about a few firearms.

Not like it even matters, there is no legit reason to ever shoot a gun underwater, and shooting a gun underwater is not a demonstration of reliability or durability.  However there are dozens of guns that can be fired with water in the actions without causing any catostrophic malfunctions.


There are also tons of guns that can survive 10 foot drops.


You just dismiss all this because it doesn't meet your agenda, and you make wild/false claims.  That is why it is hard for anyone to take you seriously at this point.


Can you list which rifles specifically?

I haven't seen anything that can survive both the drop test and firing underwater test.


7n6
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #148 on: September 14, 2017, 06:49:16 PM »

P.S 7N6

I told you this earlier but I think you over looked it.
I have a Russian Ak that fell off of my truck bed onto the ground muzzle first, landed right on the crown from about 2 feet.   The crown is ruined and the gun can't hit a baseball from 25 feet, groups like 24'' groups at 100 yards now.  I'm going to have to have the barrel removed and have it recrowned.
So I would say my russian ak failed your 10 foot drop test... If I can't hit a human sized target with a rifle at 100 yards, I consider the rifle useless.  

Doesn't matter what kind of gun you have, it's pretty easy to ruin a rifles crown.  

If you think an AK barrel is made out of superior metal than every other rifle design out there, you are sadly mistaken.
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« Reply #149 on: September 14, 2017, 06:49:49 PM »

^
Several firearms have been discussed & linked in this thread that can fire underwater and or survive the over the beach tests.  You just dismissed them, and made false claims against them.  You really discredited yourself by making false statements about a few firearms.

Not like it even matters, there is no legit reason to ever shoot a gun underwater, and shooting a gun underwater is not a demonstration of reliability or durability.  However there are dozens of guns that can be fired with water in the actions without causing any catostrophic malfunctions.


There are also tons of guns that can survive 10 foot drops.


You just dismiss all this because it doesn't meet your agenda, and you make wild/false claims.  That is why it is hard for anyone to take you seriously at this point.


Can you list which rifles specifically?

I haven't seen anything that can survive both the drop test and firing underwater test.


7n6

I listed several a few pages ago.
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« Reply #150 on: September 14, 2017, 06:52:30 PM »

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.
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7n6
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« Reply #151 on: September 14, 2017, 06:54:52 PM »

P.S 7N6

I told you this earlier but I think you over looked it.
I have a Russian Ak that fell off of my truck bed onto the ground muzzle first, landed right on the crown from about 2 feet.   The crown is ruined and the gun can't hit a baseball from 25 feet, groups like 24'' groups at 100 yards now.  I'm going to have to have the barrel removed and have it recrowned.
So I would say my russian ak failed your 10 foot drop test... If I can't hit a human sized target with a rifle at 100 yards, I consider the rifle useless.  

Doesn't matter what kind of gun you have, it's pretty easy to ruin a rifles crown.  

If you think an AK barrel is made out of superior metal than every other rifle design out there, you are sadly mistaken.


A damaged crown makes for an inaccurate rifle- that's fairly well known and the reason they make crowning jigs.

Getting back to the topic at hand, can you please list which exact rifles can both; A.) fire underwater repeatedly without damage and B.) survive a ten foot drop onto concrete?

Thanks,


7n6
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st381
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« Reply #152 on: September 14, 2017, 06:57:04 PM »

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..
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7n6
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« Reply #153 on: September 14, 2017, 07:07:43 PM »

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..


I already proved that some 5.56 AK's are 1 MOA guns with the link provided to MAC's Beryl 96 Archer accuracy test. He also has a SAM7 SF in 7.62x39 that shoots 2 MOA- not sure if I linked that or not. Either way, that's not what I came looking for- I already knew that an AK can be accurate with my own experience. 

I came here looking for a modern alternative that can both fire underwater repeatedly and survive a ten foot drop test onto concrete. That's it, that is my criteria for durability and reliability that would make for a suitable alternative. I have not through now eight pages read about any other rifle in existence that can survive both that criteria. As I stated, I am not sure such an alternative even exists and perhaps without that question being answered- has proven what I already knew all along.


7n6  
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 07:19:27 PM by 7n6 » Logged
RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #154 on: September 14, 2017, 07:36:09 PM »

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..


* download.jpg (7.41 KB, 292x172 - viewed 103 times.)
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« Reply #155 on: September 14, 2017, 07:39:22 PM »

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..


I already proved that some 5.56 AK's are 1 MOA guns with the link provided to MAC's Beryl 96 Archer accuracy test. He also has a SAM7 SF in 7.62x39 that shoots 2 MOA- not sure if I linked that or not. Either way, that's not what I came looking for- I already knew that an AK can be accurate with my own experience. 

I came here looking for a modern alternative that can both fire underwater repeatedly and survive a ten foot drop test onto concrete. That's it, that is my criteria for durability and reliability that would make for a suitable alternative. I have not through now eight pages read about any other rifle in existence that can survive both that criteria. As I stated, I am not sure such an alternative even exists and perhaps without that question being answered- has proven what I already knew all along.


7n6  


Yes many alternatives exist, numerous rifles have been discussed.  You dismissed one because you didn't like the way it '' feels '', and hardly even acknowledged the others.

There are many good reasons why countries that used to supply their armies with AK's have moved on to different guns.
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« Reply #156 on: September 14, 2017, 07:42:46 PM »

Since you like repeating yourself.. I'll repeat myself again.

In regards to some of the rifles discussed that meet your ''standards'' for which a rifle should perform.  You made many false statements about said rifles, which has discredited you from having any validity in this discussion. 
You might as well be screaming the earth is flat.
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #157 on: September 14, 2017, 09:12:53 PM »

I don't rule out controlled testing, quite the contrary. However even you have to admit that when they decided to test worn out M4's versus vendor provided 416's- that proves my point that controlled testing can be biased.

Anyway, throughout this thread I simply was looking to find another firearm that can A.) fire underwater and B.) survive a 10 foot or higher drop onto concrete outside of the aging Kalashnikov.

7n6

If that was HK's show tests, well, consider the source.  HK has realized that they actually have to produce quality firearms that really are better than what's out there, so when they can't, they rig the test.  However, tests that have been done with quality weapons show the M4 does just fine.

A lot of them can, and have been named in this thread. 
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Kurt
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« Reply #158 on: September 14, 2017, 09:34:25 PM »

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with a guy who thinks AK's are 1Moa guns.  Oh, since someone posted a cherry picked group on youtube all 556 Aks must be 1Moa.  Lol, most of my AR's don't even shoot 1Moa.

None of us do, let the thread die an honorable death..
Good one Goyle! I said in my best Draco Malfoy voice. EDIT** I was responding to the "Never" meme
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 10:07:13 PM by st381 » Logged
7n6
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« Reply #159 on: September 15, 2017, 09:26:30 AM »


Yes many alternatives exist, numerous rifles have been discussed.  You dismissed one because you didn't like the way it '' feels '', and hardly even acknowledged the others.

There are many good reasons why countries that used to supply their armies with AK's have moved on to different guns.


You haven't named one single rifle that is not an AK that can pass that test the AK can which is; A.) firing underwater repeatedly and B.) being able to survive a ten foot drop onto concrete.




If that was HK's show tests, well, consider the source.  HK has realized that they actually have to produce quality firearms that really are better than what's out there, so when they can't, they rig the test.  However, tests that have been done with quality weapons show the M4 does just fine.

A lot of them can, and have been named in this thread.  

I don't think the HK 416 is necessarily better than the M4 overall- which is already a pretty low bar to reach. They need to make a rifle more durable and reliable than the AK- which is my point of this entire thread. We need a real combat arm, a real assault rifle that can go the distance. So that when we face another Battle of the Bulge or another Frozen Chosin- then we are ready for it.    


7n6
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 09:55:28 AM by 7n6 » Logged
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