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Author Topic: Can Western Civilization invent a rifle as reliable as the AK? Not so sure.  (Read 36292 times)
7n6
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« on: August 29, 2017, 11:12:51 AM »

I've watched all the torture test videos and can critique what went wrong with each. Most of the "sand test" videos featuring AK's exploit the AK's lack of a sealed area around the selector and will show that the AR is a sealed design. Which is fine- it shows that weakness for the AK but what it fails to show further is the weakness of the AR once it is compromised. Everyone wants to shovel sand over an AK but then say look it won't fire- because the hammer can't reset. Allow the hammer to reset by cycling the action a few times- and it will run with a half a cup of sand back there. The point, that even with all our advances today in technology it would be nice to have a truly reliable alternative to the AK especially one that offers modern ergonomics. Essentially a modern firearm should be able to function once compromised with debris and should be able to pass an over the beach test. These two factors are the benchmark for what I believe personally to be the very minimum qualifications of a serious firearm relegating everything else to range duty use only.


"Swamp OTB Test" with an AR, Tavor, and an AK- only the AK keeps going;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a9lZO74YCE

AK 74 filled with sand, with one note- they made sure the hammer could reset before firing;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8hFZ7Jt2hQ

AK firing underwater;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZGDYN81-3c




Here are what I believe to be the only modern designs that might come close to that level of reliability, the 416 and the Steyr AUG. One note, some piston AR's might also come close as the 416 as well but currently the 416 is the overall standard for a piston AR. Now between the 416 and AUG, I don't think the 416 would handle dust as well once compromised because it is still an AR at heart and as such I think the AUG to be a better rifle;


AUG OTB test;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c-FzU-sa9Y

AUG dust test;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xabG5leX68

HK416 firing underwater;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50ftb1zY7Y




Bottom line, the field of modern weapons that are as reliable and durable as the AK are few and far between. We're talking less than a handful of modern designs that can even handle extreme environments as well as the AK can nearly seventy years after it's first debut. However those weapons might not be able handle certain drop tests or sand tests as well as the AK. Sure modern designs are more ergonomic, a little more accurate, maybe offer some nice optic mounting points but they aren't ultimately reliabile. Simply it would be nice if those designing modern weapons took some notes and stopped over engineering today's firearms. We could very well face another situation like the Chosin Reservoir, where troops were in the field for three weeks in sub zero temperatures cut off from supplies or evacuation where having to remove gloves to field strip and maintain a firearm could cost them their fingers. We haven't fought a WWII or Korea style conflict since that time and essentially- we need to design firearms that could handle themselves well in that environment should our troops ever be forced to fight like that again.

Just my .02,


7n6








  


« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 11:24:57 AM by 7n6 » Logged
bravo619
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 11:36:37 AM »

What's your point? Lol


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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 12:32:30 PM »

What's your point? Lol





Exactly what it says; we field unreliable, ammo sensitive, environmentally sensitive firearms. With all our advances in technology and engineering- you'd think that seventy years after the Kalashnikov debut that we could design an equally robust and reliable rifle. We have not. The basis of that is a weapon that can fire underwater, survive a thirty foot drop onto concrete, can fire compromised with debris, doesn't require extreme amount of maintenance to function, easily broken down with gloved hands for detailing, and is over gassed such that it isn't ammo or debris sensitive. With all our advances in technology we still haven't built anything that is on par. Some outdated Soviet/German WWII tech that is better overall in extreme environmental conditions than anything we field today. The AUG and 416 are a step in the right direction but they aren't as robust nor easily broken down to clear malfunctions- especially with gloved hands. Even the newest AR18 type designs like the SCAR or B&T rifles are held together with machine screws and locktight- it's a joke.


7n6  
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BullpupT
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 01:25:46 PM »

Much of the AK's legendary reliability has little to do with the actual rifle. It's reliability has everything to do with the ammo it feeds. The loose tolerances help but the ammo is the key.

The 7.62x39mm round has a tapered case, that's why the magazine has its banana shape. A tapered case only seals in the chamber its last millimeter or so in its fowars travel.

The AR and others that feed the 5.56x45mm round are hampered from the start. The straight wall case seals almost the entire length of the chamber. This causes binding points throughout the entire case length which is much more likely to jam in dirty conditions. The expanded brass is much more likely to bind up.

The case on the AK round is the single biggest reason for its reliability not the rifle itself. AK's feeds steel cases all day long due to he tapered case where the 5.56mm steel case can be a problem in some rifles.


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Hivedr.
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 02:49:52 PM »

Reliability is a balancing act between many factors. In the west we value tighter fitting parts that enhance accuracy and in turn greater hit probability more so over lose fitting parts that enhance reliability. Just look at all the b****ing that goes on about any newer rifle. The first thing folks want to know is it an MOA shooting rifle with surplus ammo followed closely by trigger pull weight and feel followed by build quality and how tight the parts fit and then maybe how reliable it is.   

A number of "big name" government and industry studies show the main issue fighting rifles have to over come is DUST ingestion when firing, not sand and mud clogging the action, Goggle it for yourself if you do not believe me. In this area newer western rifle designs like the X95/Tavor, SCAR, AXR, BREN 805, 416 and G36 perform excellently and on par to the AK type rifles. Even the DI AR does well when oiled correctly and used with Pmags. The difference is the western designs maintain higher levels of accuracy/hit probability. 

The AK designs earned their mythical hard hitting reliability at a time when the west was struggling with rushing a new relatively untested rifle (cough cough 1960s M16) into action. Would the AK have gotten the reputation had the west fielded (for a longer time) against it rifles like the M14, FAL or G3. Personally I think the
reputation would be more in it being lighter than in it's vastly superior hard hitting reliability.

Just my .02 as I have experienced and read history.
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bravo619
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 03:57:35 PM »

What's your point? Lol





Exactly what it says; we field unreliable, ammo sensitive, environmentally sensitive firearms. With all our advances in technology and engineering- you'd think that seventy years after the Kalashnikov debut that we could design an equally robust and reliable rifle. We have not. The basis of that is a weapon that can fire underwater, survive a thirty foot drop onto concrete, can fire compromised with debris, doesn't require extreme amount of maintenance to function, easily broken down with gloved hands for detailing, and is over gassed such that it isn't ammo or debris sensitive. With all our advances in technology we still haven't built anything that is on par. Some outdated Soviet/German WWII tech that is better overall in extreme environmental conditions than anything we field today. The AUG and 416 are a step in the right direction but they aren't as robust nor easily broken down to clear malfunctions- especially with gloved hands. Even the newest AR18 type designs like the SCAR or B&T rifles are held together with machine screws and locktight- it's a joke.


7n6  
I gotcha, just livening up the party 😀


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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 04:57:45 PM »

Western Civilization has been the birthplace of tons of historical firearms.  Russia has the AK, and that is basically it.  We have been making awesome things for the past 200 years.

As a long time AK fanboy, researcher, and collector I would like to comment on this subject.
I often used to polish my AK's while watching red dawn, used to call AR15s poodle shooters, etc.  I was a cliche AK guy who used to think that nothing would ever replace my AK's.  However, I have expanded and learned much since those days.

The reliability of the AK is a bit of a double edge sword. 
It has loose tolerances that allows it to easily function with debris inside the receiver, and they are often somewhat overgassed.  The throat lead in the chamber is usually very large ( where the rifling actually starts from the chamber ), which aid's in reliability... but..All these things and more have a negative influence on accuracy.
The fixed ejector also is great, blasts brass away.  The calibers they are designed for have steep should angles which aids in feeding and extraction.  Their Magazines are the staple of their reliable function, the Mags are overbuilt as hell.
Etc

If you read my Tavor posts, you will see I advocate that it is an accurate weapon, but you will never see me say that about any of my AK's.  I love my AK's, they are the most reliable guns I own, but in the real world they are roughly 4 MOA guns AT BEST.  People who say they are more accurate, even Rob Ski are cherry picking groups.  I have shot enough to know that AK's really don't shoot better than minute of bad guy out to maybe 250 yards effectively.  I have shot tens of thousands of rounds out of AK's, and I do know what I am talking about.  Can you shoot further than 250 yards?  Yes, but the groups are way bigger, and don't hold a candle to other guns.  Even AK74's aren't that accurate.  I have owned an AK from basically every country that has made them, and never have I got better than a consistent 4-5 MOA.  Sure maybe a 3'' group here or there, but that doesn't change the fact most groups were way bigger than that. 
On the other hand, my Tavor, Sig 550, and AR15s get an easy 1-2.5 MOA with factory ammo.   It is far easier to shoot targets at 100 yards and beyond with the plethora of more accurate weapons, sorry but it is true.  The accurate enough AK still doesn't hit a target as easily as a more accurate weapon, it's just science.

Ak's are great guns, but in my mind they are best for close range stuff, that is what they were designed for, and I think there are better guns out there now for that roll.  My Tavor is better for CQB, and better for long range.  I know it sounds harsh, but the day of AK's is dying.
No more good imports besides WASRs are coming into the USA.  5.45 is completely screwed, and even 7.62x39 rifles are in extremely limited sales.  American made AK's are pieces of sh!t that blow up in peoples faces.  Good AK's cost way more than good AR's now.   AK's are no longer cost effective, they are inaccurate, and they are in short supply.  Good luck ever fixing an AK properly if you don't have a machine shop.  AK's have inferior iron signs, inferior optics mounting, no LRBO, etc.   Yes, they are amazing guns that will just keep on shooting, but they are lacking in so many areas, and yet I am still an AK fanboy!... I will never sell my AK's, but I have other guns that I hold to a higher candle now.  At the end of the day, I would rather grab one of my other piston driven guns over an AK if the zombies came.  You need accuracy to get head shots Wink

AK's are pretty much ancient tech these days.  YES they are great guns, but lets be real, we have a plethora of more advanced just as reliable weapons available today.


Technology is picking up, we are starting to do smart things like flute the chambers to aid in extraction, we are coming up with better bolt designs, and other things.  The average Joe has the worlds information at his fingertips with the internet.  The average Joe knows how to give his AR the proper dwell time using buffers, port size, and dwell time.  This is stuff that was largely unknown to most gun guys just a few decades ago.

As cringy as it is to say, if you maintain your AR's, they will be reliable.  Maybe you can't put a sandwich in the FCG and blow through a mag without a failure like an AK, but AR's are still great, and on of the best things about them is that anyone can work on or build one. 

In the current market, for the money it costs to get a good AK ( 1000$+ ), you can get a plethora of state of the art weaponry.  As red blooded educated americans, it is easy to get AR's maintain them, and keep spare parts.





As a long time AK fanboy, I am here to say the AK is over rated!  There are better guns out there these days.   Also, the AR is a great weapon, it is better and more advanced than the AK in every single way besides reliability.  But anyone who cleans their guns won't have a problem with a well built AR... And guess what, I've had plenty of bad built AK's from comblock countries that jammed like crazy too!
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 05:11:55 PM »

btw.

youtube torture test videos are usually ******ed. 

There are plenty of youtube videos that make AK's look invincible.. Then there are also tons of videos that make the AR look more reliable.

Personally, I trust my first hand use of both weapons more than any youtube video.  Either an AR or an AK will function just fine so long as it was properly built.

The guys who are a complete fanboy of only the AK or only the AR are really just being ass holes defending their purchases.  I own both AR and AK, and many of them; I also own a ton of other completely different types of guns.

  There are tons of great guns out there, and I'm glad I hopped off the AK dick riding train a while ago, because now I really appreciate and enjoy using many different types of weapons.  I have seen just as many Jams in AK's as I have in AR's.  But either gun an AK or an AR will shoot very well if built properly, and maintained.  Even AK's need to be maintained.
 A rusty somoli pirate AK might shoot, but it wont group better than a foot at 100 yards, and it wouldn't be able to make it through a mag without tripping up.




Nothing personal OP


I just get sick of  AUG guys who diss Tavors, AK guys that diss AR's, AR guys that diss AK's, 1911 guys that diss glocks, etc.

They are all f-ing great guns.  They have all been used in mass warfare with great results, if they were as problomatic as internet commandos claim, then we would all be fukd.
Most people that talk about guns on the internet will never get in a gun fight.  If AR's sucked so bad, then our military, and 99% of our police wouldn't be using them.

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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2017, 09:09:48 PM »

Western Civilization has invented rifles that are as reliable as the AK.  The real question you need to ask is "What are the metrics that we are going to use to measure reliability?"  In your monologue you pretty much defeated your argument when you started making exceptions for the AK patter rifle, especially when various rifles were tested using the same test procedure and the only ones that I remember (IIRC) performing as they should were the AR-15 and the MAS 49/56, though IIRC the MAS did have a hiccup or two. 

If you want published testing criteria, then why not do what Switzerland did before they adopted the SIG-550 and -551?  I'll post the link below.  The SIG-55x series (not the abortions that SIG-Sauer made in the US recently, but the actual Swiss produced rifles) is an AK at its core and is also quite accurate.

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

The AR pattern rifle is fine; it is reliable, accurate, and durable.  So too are the FAL, G-3, and FNC to name three that were widely adopted around the world. 

Before you claim something isn't reliable or that Group X can't produce something as reliable as Group Y, define a broad selection of applicable tests and then test them.  Show some empirical evidence to support your theory.  I realize this is the internet and opinion and hearsay are treated as truth and gospel, but do some work with this and offer something more than redneck science.
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 09:27:18 PM »

^

The Sig 550 series is everything the AK and AR should have been in my opinion.
Ak reliability with all the Pluses of the AR.  It is a beast of a weapon, and a precision instrument at the same time. 
As for the Over the beach testing, The Tavor, and many other rifles pass that test as well... Which I personally don't think is that relevant of a test.  Call me crazy, but if any of my guns go underwater I would drain them out, even an AK.  Pretty sure the added pressure of cycling while filled with water destroys barrels and internals even if it cycles, it is cycling with a massive amount of extra pressure.  If the over the beach tests were as relevant as some think, then I doubt our Navy would use AR's at all.
I was taught as a kid to never shoot any gun with any obstruction in the barrel, which includes water and oil.


I used to hate a lot on AR's mainly because of crap I read on the internet, then once I actually started really using them in my personal life and at work I found them to be very reliable.  Every AR I have personally owned has ran 100%.
Every type of gun has factory lemons.


I like the bullpup forum because I feel the majority of members here aren't as narrow minded about guns.  AK forums, and AR forums tend to have a group mentality that both think that their gun is the end all be all gold standard of weapon system.
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7n6
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 09:43:42 PM »

Much of the AK's legendary reliability has little to do with the actual rifle. It's reliability has everything to do with the ammo it feeds. The loose tolerances help but the ammo is the key.

The 7.62x39mm round has a tapered case, that's why the magazine has its banana shape. A tapered case only seals in the chamber its last millimeter or so in its fowars travel.

The AR and others that feed the 5.56x45mm round are hampered from the start. The straight wall case seals almost the entire length of the chamber. This causes binding points throughout the entire case length which is much more likely to jam in dirty conditions. The expanded brass is much more likely to bind up.

The case on the AK round is the single biggest reason for its reliability not the rifle itself. AK's feeds steel cases all day long due to he tapered case where the 5.56mm steel case can be a problem in some rifles.





I have AK's in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62- all of them run better than any other rifles I've owned. I'm just tired of the trade off and can't understand why we can't design something in the modern world equally reliable and robust. I think the AUG is close, they proofed barrels by shooting squib loads with live rounds.



Western Civilization has invented rifles that are as reliable as the AK.  


I haven't personally seen anything equally reliable but some are close. This whole thing started for me personally because I reached a point in my collection where I have all these different rifles of all types- and would love to downsize, consolidate etc. However it feels like a trade off.


7n6  


« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 10:22:35 PM by 7n6 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 11:07:07 PM »

Well I think the G3 was fairly close to the AK in reliability, but that design isn't significantly newer than the AK, is pretty hefty, and definitely improves on AK ergos's, but doesn't keep up with newer designs in that respect.  Aren't the new Galil ACE rifles supposed to be all your asking for?  How about the FNC?(not that we can get them)
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 11:57:45 PM »

Much of the AK's legendary reliability has little to do with the actual rifle. It's reliability has everything to do with the ammo it feeds. The loose tolerances help but the ammo is the key.

The 7.62x39mm round has a tapered case, that's why the magazine has its banana shape. A tapered case only seals in the chamber its last millimeter or so in its fowars travel.

The AR and others that feed the 5.56x45mm round are hampered from the start. The straight wall case seals almost the entire length of the chamber. This causes binding points throughout the entire case length which is much more likely to jam in dirty conditions. The expanded brass is much more likely to bind up.

The case on the AK round is the single biggest reason for its reliability not the rifle itself. AK's feeds steel cases all day long due to he tapered case where the 5.56mm steel case can be a problem in some rifles.





I have AK's in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62- all of them run better than any other rifles I've owned. I'm just tired of the trade off and can't understand why we can't design something in the modern world equally reliable and robust. I think the AUG is close, they proofed barrels by shooting squib loads with live rounds.



Western Civilization has invented rifles that are as reliable as the AK.  


I haven't personally seen anything equally reliable but some are close. This whole thing started for me personally because I reached a point in my collection where I have all these different rifles of all types- and would love to downsize, consolidate etc. However it feels like a trade off.


7n6  




What is acceptable reliability to you? In what environment the desert, jungle, arctic, urban, woodland, mountainous, open flat lands? No rifle of the newer generation of designs is 100% reliable every time in all. Each design has it's weakness including the AK pattern rifles.

In recent conflicts the AK has NOT out performed the current NATO rifles, in fact the current NATO rifles have been outperforming the AK in all but terminal ballistics at ranges out to 300 meters (that is the real
argument IMO). This is why the bad guys have learned to stay beyond 300 meters when engaging Western forces. Any closer and it's lights out because the accuracy of the NATO rifles with their excellent optics (ACOG, Aimpoint, Eotech, Elcan) trumps any minor reliability advantages the AK pattern rifles might still have.

This is not the 60s or even the late 80s. Modern rifles have come a long ways and the improvements made over the decades since the AK got it mythical reputation for reliability have given us rifles that are
easily the match for them in the real non mythical world of life and death.

Now all that said don't get me wrong I have owned AKs since the mid 80s and admire the simple design and 7.62x39 round, but having shot and trained with nearly every current NATO rifle, the AK would be next to the last rifle I would grab if going into harms way again (the last rifle would be the L85/SA80 it has the worst ergonomics of all the NATO rifles). In a perfect world we would be using a hybrid of the AK bolt, western ergonomics, something larger than a 6mm bullet with the inherent accuracy of a mil spec
M4/16. Wait, would that be a 300 Blackout Tavor/X95.

Sadly the biggest complaint from NATO forces IS NOT in the reliability of their weapons in combat it is the lack of effectiveness of the standard NATO M855/SS109 rounds being used.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:02:02 AM by Hivedr. » Logged
7n6
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2017, 12:42:27 AM »

I have 5.56 AK's that hold around 2MOA running modern optics but don't care what kind of ammo you feed them. Basically, I want something equally reliable and durable but more ergonomic is all. I already have Colt M4's, AUG's, etc.


7n6
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2017, 12:51:19 AM »

I have 5.56 AK's that hold around 2MOA running modern optics but don't care what kind of ammo you feed them. Basically, I want something equally reliable and durable but more ergonomic is all. I already have Colt M4's, AUG's, etc.


7n6
I hope you don't take this negatively, but it honestly sounds like nothing will ever get you away from that impression. Whenever someone raises a valid point, you subvert it with an observance of your own. Whether in regards to accuracy or reliability, there is always something to bring up that keeps the AK held in high regard.
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2017, 01:43:30 AM »

I have 5.56 AK's that hold around 2MOA running modern optics but don't care what kind of ammo you feed them. Basically, I want something equally reliable and durable but more ergonomic is all. I already have Colt M4's, AUG's, etc.


7n6

Sounds like you are looking for a Sig556 Classic or the new Galil ACE. Both AK at heat but with western ergonomics. Paired with quality magazines and presto you have what you are looking for.
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2017, 02:17:45 AM »

Lol

AKs are completely over rated. 
I used to drink the red dawn coolaid, but then I actually tried other guns.
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2017, 02:19:12 AM »

Op if you like aks by all means keep using them.  Nobody is telling you not to.  However everyone gave you good points you seemed to just ignore.
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2017, 02:22:28 AM »



Before you claim something isn't reliable or that Group X can't produce something as reliable as Group Y, define a broad selection of applicable tests and then test them.  Show some empirical evidence to support your theory.  I realize this is the internet and opinion and hearsay are treated as truth and gospel, but do some work with this and offer something more than redneck science.

This.

This is also the reason I can't stand so many gun forums.

"Muh gun is da best and everything else sucks because I need to justify the thousands of dollars I invested in this setup derp " 
That is the mentality of basically every Ak and Ar specific gun forum.
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 02:37:41 AM »

Lol

AKs are completely over rated. 
I used to drink the red dawn coolaid, but then I actually tried other guns.


Currently own AR's, AUG's, HK 91's, FAL's, an M1A, AK's in 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39. I have owned SIG 55x series and SCAR's. Even after owning all that stuff- I still drink the Red Dawn coolaid I guess.


7n6
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