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Author Topic: Stronger recoil spring for suppressed Tavor  (Read 23836 times)
AZ-Chris
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« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2018, 10:51:11 PM »

I experienced my first malfunction when shooting suppressed (using the stronger recoil spring and my GemTech Trek 5.56 can).  The malfunction was a stovepipe that prevented (mangled) the next round being fed into the chamber.  The stoppage could not be cleared by simply running the charging handle a few times . . . I had to drop the magazine, lock the bolt back, and reach inside to un-jam the spent case and badly bent new round.  Glad this was at the range.

Spent cases are still be rapidly/forcefully ejected in the 1 o'clock direction, making retrieval difficult.  Of the spent cases that were recovered, the usual denting in the cases shown in an earlier post were clearly evident.

While the replacement spring Art provided is a positive step in the right direction, I cannot rely on running my Tavor suppressed as a home defense option.  I require an even stronger recoil spring before I can rely on my Tavor to serve in the roll I intended it for.

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SteveD
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« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2018, 11:01:19 PM »

You could always try modifying the brass deflector or removing it completely. It sucks to have to do anything to make it function, but we can't do anything about it :\. I was just at the range today with the extra power spring and my brass was ejecting 4:00 to 4:30. Hopefully my jailed can can work with that later.
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AZ-Chris
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« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2018, 11:43:47 PM »

I don't think the shell deflector had anything to do with the stovepipe . . .

The problem remains . . . the cyclic rate is just too fast when shooting suppressed.
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SteveD
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« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2018, 12:06:35 AM »

I was under the impression some stove pipes caused by suppressed use was the cyclic rate is too high and violent with the gas, ejecting the casing so violently that it bounces off the shell deflector back into the weapon. If the problem is high cyclic rate (which I have no doubt it is with suppressed Tavors), the casing hitting the deflector is something that should be considered. Some users on the forum had stovepipes but upon removing their brass deflector, making it AUG-like, seemed to solve that problem.
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AZ-Chris
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« Reply #84 on: January 13, 2018, 12:28:43 AM »

Perhaps I need to try removing the deflector, but I'm skeptical of this theory.

I will give this a try and report back.
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SteveG75
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« Reply #85 on: January 13, 2018, 12:33:19 AM »

I had the same problem with stovepipes with the stock recoil spring and the stock deflector. Removing the frame solved the problem in back to back testing. I then tried the angled Percival shell deflector and have not had a problem with that either so I have kept that installed.

My limited testing also leans to using a suppressor that creates less back pressure. My go to can for the Tavor is my Rugged Razor with 7.62 end cap. Couple of decibels more than my Rugged Surge but less gas.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 12:41:10 AM by SteveG75 » Logged
AZ-Chris
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« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2018, 05:04:12 PM »

Just got back from the range -- shooting with and without the shell deflector as the only variable.  The Tavor has the stronger recoil spring and I'm using a GemTech Trek 5.56 thread-on suppressor.

With the deflector in-place, cases eject consistently at 1 o'clock and clearly show dented cases.  I experienced another stove pipe, though it was fairly easily cleared.

Without the deflector, cases eject at 3 o'clock (nearly all cases are retrievable) but NO denting (though some scratches) on spent cases.  Unfortunately, I did experience another stove pipe, though it was easily cleared.

I think I will try out the Percival Armaments Angled Shell Deflector to see if it helps, but the real problem here is the overly gassed system and high bolt speed.
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SteveD
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« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2018, 07:30:56 PM »

That's unfortunate. I would go to the extremes of even drilling a small hole in the gas block...but that's just me hehe. Sucks to even have to consider such great lengths. I've seen them suppressed; I guess they drilled your gas port a tad bit too big on your rifle.
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AZ-Chris
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« Reply #88 on: February 03, 2018, 08:39:46 PM »

I just got back from a miserable range session (as if that were possible) with the Tavor.  I shot the Tavor suppressed using the GemTech Trek 5.56 can, the stronger recoil spring and new to this session, the Percival shell deflector.

I only fired 30 rounds before calling it quits . . . I was unable to fire a string longer that 3 rounds without experiencing a difficult to clear stove pipe/jam.  The Percival shell deflector is designed for light loads, definitely not for an overgassed Tavor.



I'm calling it quits with regard to using the GemTech Trek on my Tavor.  Just too many issues to resolve in order to get the gun to run reliably.  I will now focus my attention to running the Tavor with my Rugged Razor 30-cal suppressor to see if I can get more reliable operation.
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chowser51
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« Reply #89 on: February 04, 2018, 02:15:21 AM »

I gave up on my Specwar 556 and only rarely shoot my X95 with my .30cal can (AAC 762SDN6). Both ran fine. I just quit shooting it suppressed because of the gas in face. Less gas with the .30cal can but I canít make it through a 20 round magazine. I will get around to installing my spring and drilling a hole in the gas block when I find time.
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lee1000
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« Reply #90 on: February 04, 2018, 03:05:17 AM »

I gave up on my Specwar 556 and only rarely shoot my X95 with my .30cal can (AAC 762SDN6). Both ran fine. I just quit shooting it suppressed because of the gas in face. Less gas with the .30cal can but I canít make it through a 20 round magazine. I will get around to installing my spring and drilling a hole in the gas block when I find time.

I'm surprised no one is offering the gas block drilling modification as a service. I'm not a Tavor or suppressor owner yet but I'm looking. I might end up with a Sig suppressor because of the bigger diameter.
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ShootingSight
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« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2018, 10:45:21 AM »

I test fire all the Tavor triggers, so I sometimes have range sessions that last a few hundred rounds, and occasionally get into sessions where I misfeed or stovepipe every 5 or 6.  What works for me is a good chamber scrubbing and running it wet.  I think there is just too much soot buildup that makes things not slide easily.
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Art Neergaard
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SteveD
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« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2018, 09:14:55 PM »

Reading through the problems some Tavor owners have, has anyone considered drilling a hole in the gas system to bleed off gas? Somewhere closer to the port, not near where the piston head rests (Think ShootingSight did that to just alleviate TavorFace, not the backpressure). Using this picture, maybe drill it halfway down the small tube? Will that help or completely mess up the gas system?

http://i.imgur.com/wttFk64.jpg
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ShootingSight
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« Reply #93 on: February 05, 2018, 02:16:05 AM »

I never did that.  Maybe Gear Head Works?  I know he experimented a lot to get his first prototype 300BLK to cycle correctly.
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Art Neergaard
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SteveD
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« Reply #94 on: February 05, 2018, 04:49:56 AM »

Ah yes, it was GearHeadWorks. I knew it was one of you aftermarket guys (Got your Extra power spring;hope that's all I need). I'm thinking if I have problems with my Tavor once my can is out of jail, I'll be the guinea pig on that experiment. Question is; where should the hole be? If the hole is too far away, closer to the piston head, the system may be overgassed still (I'm probably going to drill the smallest hole, whatever that diameter is). However, Maybe I can drill the hole bigger and it would help. If I drill too close to the gas port and it bleeds too much gas, I'm just out of luck period...

Anyone have a very educated guess on where I might drill the hole if I need to?
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ShootingSight
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« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2018, 09:32:50 AM »

Or even drilling behind the piston, so it does not bleed off any before the piston starts moving, but rather just starts an early exhaust.

As you pointed out, too little is inconvenient.  Too much is game over.  We got lots of taking off tools, but not so many putting back on ones.  Unless you start by drilling it to accept a screw-in gas port from maybe a SCAR, or possibly a jet from an old carburettor, or even find a size of set screw that you can start drilling out.  It would be good to just know the size and location of the hole you want, but if you are the first guy to try it, that'd be like winning the lottery.  Instead go in with the idea of making it adjustable.
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Art Neergaard
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SteveD
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« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2018, 05:51:24 PM »

I would love to make it adjustable, but I lack the confidence to drill and tap without messing up. I was looking into changing the piston somehow, but someone has already tried with no luck. Then, KNS Precision at shotshow will have a product for the AK with an adjustable gas piston...I'd much rather mess with the piston somehow.
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lee1000
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« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2018, 05:18:31 AM »

Or even drilling behind the piston, so it does not bleed off any before the piston starts moving, but rather just starts an early exhaust.

As you pointed out, too little is inconvenient.  Too much is game over.  We got lots of taking off tools, but not so many putting back on ones.  Unless you start by drilling it to accept a screw-in gas port from maybe a SCAR, or possibly a jet from an old carburettor, or even find a size of set screw that you can start drilling out.  It would be good to just know the size and location of the hole you want, but if you are the first guy to try it, that'd be like winning the lottery.  Instead go in with the idea of making it adjustable.

The author of the thread below reportedly did well with an adjustable gas block. It seems replacing the piston and drilling the gas tube didn't work well.

https://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=10875.0
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SteveD
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« Reply #98 on: February 06, 2018, 05:59:35 AM »

Yeah I saw it a while back and I thought it was great. I just don't have the confidence to drill n tap, especially such hard steel. He also 3d printed his parts, which I don't have access to (maybe it's easy, though). The AK Gas piston is different because I believe there is a hole down the middle of the piston head, and it extends a bit before letting it bleed out the sides. Too bad an AK carrier has a lot of real estate where the Tavor has what 3/4" on the piston head before it runs into the spring assembly.

I would try the adjustable gas block if I could. it just seems like drilling a small hole, somewhere gas tube (not the gas cylinder!) could help and would be easier. Where the gas tube turns very thin and then turns into a larger chunk of metal is where I'd try. GearHeadWorks drilled a small hole a bit past that, more towards the piston head, to vent  excess gas, not so much affect the gas system. My hole would be 1/2-3/4" more towards the gas port/muzzle end.
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imadude
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« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2018, 09:27:28 PM »

Is there a good way to remove the return spring?  I've watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XorSllQgDEI on yt but when I push down against the dowel rod, there's nothing happening to loosen spring tension.  The little crossbar piece seems firmly entrenched.  This is on a x95 and my return spring is captured (butt side).
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