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Author Topic: Cleaning Products for a "Go To" Gun in storage?  (Read 1610 times)
vawinds4
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« on: August 08, 2017, 09:53:41 PM »

I recently had an issue come up with two guns that I thought would serve as "Go-To / SHTF" weapons. I'll get to the Tavor X-95 in a moment. One gun was a high end 1911 and the other one was a 300BLK AR- SBR- before I recently bought my X-95 300BLK. Both guns had been put away for several months after having been cleaned with Fire Clean. When I took them out for a range day recently, neither would chamber a round. I changed magazines and performed multiple malfunction drills with each- no joy. Neither would chamber a round - much less fire one. After completely field stripping each and de-sludging/de-gumming them, they now cycle as expected and required for my home defense needs.

My Tavor X-95 300BLK (now my go-to gun of choice) with its robust operating system may have powered its way through this lubricant, but my question is, if I don't get to the range weekly or even monthly, is there some lubricant I can use for potential monthly storage without firing that will ensure my Tavor does what it needs to do- defend and protect with no holds barred? The reality is that I do not get to the range weekly or at times monthly due to job constraints/ weather, etc. so after cleaning, my guns can sit longer than I would like. I also believe with respect to gun ownership, one is none; two is one, mo' is better so it may take a few months to fully cycle, shoot and clean each gun.  Any thoughts on using Rem Oil, Slip 2000, Break Free or Gunzilla as a low viscosity lubricant that will keep all my guns good to go on demand?

I live in the mid-Atlantic and face fairly high humidity year round, and while I do not want to obsess over cleaning, I do obsess over a home defense weapon cycling a round and firing as expected.

Any thoughts for best practices to keep my Tavor or any other home defense gun 24/7 weapons ready will be gratefully appreciated!
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 10:13:33 PM »

I recently had an issue come up with two guns that I thought would serve as "Go-To / SHTF" weapons. I'll get to the Tavor X-95 in a moment. One gun was a high end 1911 and the other one was a 300BLK AR- SBR- before I recently bought my X-95 300BLK. Both guns had been put away for several months after having been cleaned with Fire Clean. When I took them out for a range day recently, neither would chamber a round. I changed magazines and performed multiple malfunction drills with each- no joy. Neither would chamber a round - much less fire one. After completely field stripping each and de-sludging/de-gumming them, they now cycle as expected and required for my home defense needs.

My Tavor X-95 300BLK (now my go-to gun of choice) with its robust operating system may have powered its way through this lubricant, but my question is, if I don't get to the range weekly or even monthly, is there some lubricant I can use for potential monthly storage without firing that will ensure my Tavor does what it needs to do- defend and protect with no holds barred? The reality is that I do not get to the range weekly or at times monthly due to job constraints/ weather, etc. so after cleaning, my guns can sit longer than I would like. I also believe with respect to gun ownership, one is none; two is one, mo' is better so it may take a few months to fully cycle, shoot and clean each gun.  Any thoughts on using Rem Oil, Slip 2000, Break Free or Gunzilla as a low viscosity lubricant that will keep all my guns good to go on demand?

I live in the mid-Atlantic and face fairly high humidity year round, and while I do not want to obsess over cleaning, I do obsess over a home defense weapon cycling a round and firing as expected.

Any thoughts for best practices to keep my Tavor or any other home defense gun 24/7 weapons ready will be gratefully appreciated!

People tend to have those problems with frog lube.  If your fire clean stuff is causing guns to stop working, then stop using it.


I lube my guns with motor oil, and use a light coat of motor oil over metal parts for storage.
Never had an issue.
I've lubed guns with motor oil, put them away for a year or two, took them out and they functioned flawlessly.

I use a little bit of tractor grease as well.  Never an issue.


Most gun oils are just snake oil.  Motor oil has some additives that combat carbon build up ( think about the abuse a vehicle engine goes through.  Motor oil is superior in my opinion, and it costs a fraction to what gun oils cost.

Standard 10w 30 or 5 w 30 have always worked 100% for me, and they last longer than thinner gun oils.  Motor oil doesn't dry out nearly as fast when used in an AR 15 action.

I put Lucas red n tacky Grease on the rails of my Tavor, and motor oil in the bolt workings.   Never had a single problem, in fact I believe this combo works better than the majority of snake oils gun oils.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 10:15:10 PM »

Quote
Rem Oil, Slip 2000, Break Free or Gunzilla

I suggest not using those, save your money and buy motor oil.
Rem oil dries out really fast compared to motor oil.  All those other oils you mentioned are snake oils.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 10:22:23 PM »

BTW

I use Lucas Red N tacky along with Motor oil on all of my guns.  Works really well.
I put the grease on stuff that slides, and oil on stuff that rotates.

Lucas Red N tacky works in sub zero temps and works at 540 degrees fahrenheit.
Motor oil is designed to work in engines that see harsher conditions than our guns will ever see.

Don't fall for gun oil gimmicks, most gun oils would fail in a vehicle engine or hard industrial use.  Lucas red n tacky, and motor oil are designed to function in a huge range of temps, through extremely harsh industrial applications.
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vawinds4
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 10:35:23 PM »

I am going to have to re-clean all my guns this weekend- not the worst thing- somewhat therapeutic, just not what I had planned though. Thanks for your responses!
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 10:40:04 PM »

I am going to have to re-clean all my guns this weekend- not the worst thing- somewhat therapeutic, just not what I had planned though. Thanks for your responses!

Ya, any gun product that caused your guns to sieze up should be thrown away and never used again!
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 11:44:28 PM »

I'm not saying you have to use motor oil.. I would just say, be wary of all the new products out there... Try to stick with conventional oils as they are proven to be effective.

Stuff like Frog lube has been well documented to cause malfunctions in firearms.
No need to reinvent the wheel, which is why I trust automotive and industrial lubricants, because they put a lot of money into keeping expensive machinery working at peak performance.
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MyMonyPit
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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2017, 09:37:52 AM »

Rabbitslayer,

Do you discriminate against synthetic vs. dino? I may have read others also using some sort of trans fluid. Have you heard this?
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Halmbarte
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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 11:05:33 AM »

I'm going to go against the grain and recommend not using engine oil.

My reasoning is engine oils are compromised vs a good gun lube in these areas:

Corrosion protection - Guns are open to the elements and get wet. Engine oils aren't very good at preventing rust.
EP additives - Engine oils are designed around the the oil being pumped to bearings and getting to a steady temp. Not a lot of firearms have oil pumps lubricating plain bearings, so you need more EP additives.
Creepiness - A gun oil needs o get into spaces between parts to lubricate them and protect them from corrosion. People tend to complain when engine oils ooze out of every seal in the motor.

As a side note, since there aren't any guns that have a catalytic converter, the additive package to achieve the above doesn't need to be compatible with catalytic elements, giving the lubrication engineer a bigger toolbox to pull from.

What I've been using recently is LSA (aka Royco 46), a semi-fluid 00 grease. It's creepy, keeps steel from rusting, leaves a film w/o gumming up, and has decent falex wear test results.

And it costs about $10 a quart.

H
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 03:39:50 PM »

Motor oil and Lucas red n tacky are great rust preventatives, that's part of their intended purpose.  
''Motor oil, engine oil, or engine lubricant is any of various substances comprising base oils enhanced with additives, particularly antiwear additive plus detergents, dispersants and, for multi-grade oils viscosity index improvers. In addition to that, almost all lubricating oils contain corrosion (GB: rust) and oxidation inhibitors. ''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

In fact, motor oils have to meet certain industry rust prevention standards.
Quote
''American Petroleum Institute (API)
Engine lubricants are evaluated against the American Petroleum Institute (API), SJ, SL, SM, SN, CH-4, CI-4, CI-4 PLUS, CJ-4, CK and FA as well as International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) GF-3, GF-4 and GF-5, and Cummins, Mack and John Deere requirements. These evaluations include chemical and physical properties using bench test methods as well as actual running engine tests to quantify engine sludge, oxidation, component wear, oil consumption, piston deposits and fuel economy.''

There are simply no gun oils that have to meet nearly half of the standards that motor oils do.


Motor Vehicles get extremely wet and covered in salt on a regular basis.  Vehicle engines are exposed to the elements on a daily basis, and motor oils are specifically designed to prevent oxidation of metals, and lubricate components that are burning at hundreds of degrees at the same time.  They are designed to function is sub zero weather so that cars start easily in winter.  We leave our cars sitting outside in the elements everyday, I don't know about you, but I don't leave my Tavor sitting in the street through rain and snowstorms day in and day out.

The amount of abuse a vehicle engine goes through is more than any firearm will ever experience. Vehicle engines are constantly exposed to the elements, and in five minutes our engine pistons will fire more times than our Firearms actions will cycle in their entire lifetime.

I restored an old lever-action for a friend that's probably about 60 to 70 years old, that was rusted to hell.  I did my best to scrub away as much rust as I could, and then I put a light coat of cheap motor oil over the entire firearm.  3 years have passed and the gun does not have a single extra bit of rust on it.  The motor oil effectively stopped the furthering of any oxidation on that firearm.  And btw he keeps that gun sitting in the garage.

Yes absolutely motor oil products are designed to prevent oxidation of metals.  It would be ******ed if they weren't.

You say motor oils are more runny?  You can easily change the viscosity/weight of motor oil easily when you purchase it.  Although 5w30 has stayed put much better that rem oil or hoppes ever has from my experience, but if you wanted thicker oil, that is pretty easy to buy at any gas station or auto store, I'm not aware of any gun oil that offers multiple viscosity levels.  They also last much longer through heavy firing schedules.  Also Lucas red and tacky will stay wherever you put it for as long as you want it there.  I put lucas red n tacky on the rails of all my carry pistols, and it always stays put.


Automotive lubrication products are superior to REM oil or Hoppe's any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.  They also cost a fraction as much.  4$ for a quart of the highest quality motor oil vs  10$ for an oz of snake oil is a no brainer.

I don't suggest using used motor oil though.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 04:33:52 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged

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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 04:44:00 PM »

Rabbitslayer,

Do you discriminate against synthetic vs. dino? I may have read others also using some sort of trans fluid. Have you heard this?

One thing about Trans fluid, is I have heard it may give off toxic fumes, so I've personally always stayed away from it.  Don't know if that is true, but hearing that kept me away from it.

Personally, I just use cheap 5w30 or 10w30 conventional from the gas station.  I don't think the differences would really matter with firearms use.  Although I have heard that the old synthetics designed back in the 60's were not as good at rust prevention, however that could have just been BS, and regardless with modern rust prevention additives in both conventional and synthetic oils and is no longer a point. 

In the end, I don't think it will make a difference.   

I have heard of people using Trans fluid, but personally I just stick with conventional motor oil, and Lucas red N tacky grease.  Grease for where things slide, and oil where things rotate.  Never had a single problem, and in fact I believe they make my actions feel smoother.   Also, I use the lucas red n tack in sub zero weather with no problems what so ever.
http://www.autozone.com/greases-and-gear-oil/lubricant-grease/lucas-oil-14-oz-red-and-tacky-grease/693860_0_0
Quote
Fortified with rust and oxidation inhibitors, having good water resistance and washout properties

I like the grease because it stays where I put it, and is a great lube, I just try to use it sparingly, because not much is really needed.  I've also noticed motor oil stays put and lasts much longer than Hoppes or remoil.

In the end, people are religious about their lube methods.  I just try to use the KISS method (Keep it simple stupid), I've been using the same quart of motor oil and tube of grease for a few years now, and it will probably be enough to last another 10 years honestly.   I put the motor oil in a spray bottle to make application easier.

I didn't mean to be too defensive about motor oil earlier, I just had to throw that stuff out there because another member falsely claimed it is a poor rust preventative, which is false.  Motor oil has to meet industry standards of rust prevention to even be sold in the industry.



That is all in regards to guns..

In my last truck I switched to synthetic after about 200k, and it worked great.. But I cannot definitively say it works better than conventional.  Although when I did switch to synthetic, I changed the oil every 5000-7000k instead of 3000k, and had no problems.
Currently my new truck is just getting conventional every 3000k-5000k, and it has been working flawlessly.
( my auto user manual suggests changing oil every 5000k for my truck )


« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 04:52:19 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged

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adoloris
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 05:43:07 PM »

Break Free CLP and Mobil 1 grease have served me well through the years. Even long neglected safe queens emerge and function flawlessly. I annually ( summer solstice) clean all of my guns so have never seen dried lube or grease in this interval.
I tried Hornady One Shot (dry lube) but found that malfunctions occurred at much lower round counts than CLP.
I also tried Gunzilla (biolube) but found it takes longer to get a clean bore.
I do clean my guns after each session except for the X-95, my go to gun, which I ran to over 2500 rounds without cleaning trying to get a malfunction - none occurred, so I cleaned it...
Home gun range, comp and classes keeps me shooting and cleaning often.
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Halmbarte
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 06:12:04 PM »

Penzoil synthetic started showing rust in under 24 hours during this test: http://www.dayattherange.com/?page_id=3667


The best products lasted more than 168 hours of outdoor exposure.

As far as auto engines vs guns, the exterior of engines are somewhat exposed to the elements, but when they are made of steel they are normally painted. Engines also are much less stressed.

For example:  An engine idling at 800 rpm would fire 48,000 times in an hour. There wouldn't be many firearms that would still be usable after 48,000 shots. We expect can and truck engines to last hundreds (if not thousands) of running hours and millions of cycles. Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles. Even the vaunted AK routinely breaks down after as few as 100,000 cycles, or the equivalent of about 2 hours idling.

I think a whole lot of what lube works best for you depends on you and your individual use conditions. Taking a gun out a couple times a year for an hour on a sunny day in a desert doesn't call for the same level of protection that a hunter in the woods in the Cascades in the wet season on his 3rd day out needs.

H
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 06:21:04 PM by Halmbarte » Logged
cciman
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 06:42:48 PM »

My $.02:

Gun lubes are like the auto additives - everyone is trying to make a buck, and selling fear and false promise---  there is no other industries on this planet that has R&D lubricants more than the auto or industrial markets.

Engine parts that meet and rub are bathed in lubricant with circulating fluid...guns are not.   If dry, the engine will fail very quickly.  I would argue that the spark plug ignitions in one single cylinder over the 100K miles that your car travels are many many times the forces that your puny gun will ever experience.

Most gun parts that fail  are  not the parts that meet and rub, but the parts that see impact and have no lubricant (barrel, springs, pins, lugs, firing pins, gas ports) -- your level of cleaning and lubrication will have no impact on how long these parts will last.

The last thing you want is having excessive oil droplets hitting you in the eyeball, eyeglasses, or fouling your primers.  I personally use whatever motor oil is left over after oil changes, and lube only the mating parts that meet and rub and don't worry about the other parts-- but I don't do SEAL maneuvers in salt water, and will use a moly lube if it is just going to sit there-- but it will attract more grit and dust.  I like nitrided and chrome lined treatments wherever possible.

Remember that WD40 was "discovered" as a protective moisture barrier for Titan missiles nosepieces, and engineers were taking it home to use.  Yes there are stories of WD40 locking up gun mechanisms, but that does not mean you can't use it as a rust preventative on surfaces that don't affect mechanical function. 

If you are truly worried and live in such a corrosive environment, put it in a plastic bag with a couple desiccant packs-- easy to just rip off.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 06:47:32 PM »

Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 06:49:39 PM »

My $.02:

Gun lubes are like the auto additives - everyone is trying to make a buck, and selling fear and false promise---  there is no other industries on this planet that has R&D lubricants more than the auto or industrial markets.


This
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cciman
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 07:00:31 PM »

Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.

NO, I'm saying they do not see a minute fraction of the forces inside an engine.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 07:08:19 PM »

That was a response to Halmbarte, not you CCI man.

I agreed with everything you said in this thread!
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 07:11:28 PM »

Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.

NO, I'm saying they do not see a minute fraction of the forces inside an engine.

I understood what you meant, the response you quoted was me replying to Halmbarte, not what you said.
I said I agree with your statements CCIman  Grin

You and I have disagreed with much in the past, but in this topic I believe we have drawn the same opinions/conclusions.
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Halmbarte
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« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 08:09:52 PM »

Engines also are much less stressed.
 Guns are just too highly stressed to last that many cycles.
H

So you're trying to say that guns have more stress than vehicle or industrial engines?

lol
With all due respect..

It takes maybe a few pounds of force to cycle a gun bolt... Engines are generating hundreds of pounds of torque.

Lucas Red N Tacky is designed for industrial applications which see thousands of pounds of pressure in the contact points of the machinery.  This grease, and automotive oils are designed to keep their density under huge amounts of pressure, while utilizing additives that prevent rust, and break down contaminates.


We can agree to disagree, I'm not saying that you haven't made a great choice, and many of these choices are overkill.

However, first to claim motor oils are poor at preventing rust is incorrect, Motor oils have to pass industrial standards in regards to rust & oxidation prevention.

Second, a firearms action will never see a fraction as much pressure, friction, and abuse that Vehicle and industrial applications see.


I'm sure your lube works great, but you simply cannot ignore the standards that industrial lubricants are held to.  The financial reasoning behind it is backed by billion and trillion dollar companies that make gun lubricant companies look like ants in the shadows of giants.

Yes, I am.

I'm getting numbers in the 2500psi range for peak pressure in a diesel engine from the guys: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=215499

9mmP has a peak pressure of 35,000psi, 556 NATO gets up around 55,000psi.

There is more force in a firearm than many people expect.

BSW

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