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Author Topic: 223 vs 556.  (Read 540 times)
cspear42
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« on: August 07, 2017, 07:44:24 PM »

I know this subject must have been discussed at length.  I have been looking on this forum and there are hundreds of topics.  Can anyone point out where I can find the discussions?  Thanks.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 08:00:20 PM »

What are you asking exactly?
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 08:07:59 PM »

Just watch the video if you don't know the differences.  I think they did a decent job explaining.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
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cspear42
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 08:38:22 AM »

My bad.  I was looking for a discussion on what ammo would be best used in an X95, 223 or 556?  Also, would like opinions on which weight and manufacturer provide best results for the X95.  Hope that clarifies.
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DOWNS
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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 03:03:22 PM »

If they designed it for NATO spec ammo then any thing like M193 or M855 should work fine in it. Honestly the rifle should run fine on any .223 or 5.56 spec ammo.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 03:14:09 PM »

Every barrel has microscopic differences they are all unique like a fingerprint.  That's why forensics can trace bullets fired from guns to certain guns. 
So what my gun likes, yours may not.
Just test out different stuff and see what you like.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 04:30:00 PM »

BTW

If you are wondering about cycling...
My Tavor X95 has functioned flawlessly with under pressured tula, and over pressured independence; in both hot and cold weather ( below 32 degrees f and above 100 degrees f ).
Very reliable weapon, ammo choice probably won't affect weapon cycling.

Basically whatever terminal performance you prefer out of a 16'' AR, you can use the same loads for the Tavor.  I use hand loaded bonded soft points.  If you don't hand load, I would suggest loading up a few mags full of speer gold dots.  Bonded soft points are great for many reasons, and generally outperform FMJ ammo in every single regard perhaps price unless you hand load.  Bonded soft points can penetrate barriers, but still expand inside soft targets creating hydrostatic shock and very large wound channels.
Personally, I buy bulk reloading supplies, and hand load ammo that is just as good as speer gold dot bonded soft points, for 25 cents a completed cartridge.   That's right, I hand load bonded bullets in 223 for the same price as steel case ammo.   If you search carefully and buy in bulk, you can buy Bonded soft point bullets for 12 cents a bullet.  These bullets are usually factory over runs, I think right now I have 1,000 federal fusion overruns, and I bought them for 13 cents a bullet.

But at this point it's just preference, there are lots of guys that just like buying FMj ammo, and I used to be the same.  I think the best FMJ ammo available right now is Wolf gold.  Wolf gold will fragment like M193 within 100 yards, but the thing I learned is FMJ NEVER reliably fragments, I know this from personal experience.
Another thing to consider is a persons time is worth money, I personally like spending time reloading to get the best performance terminally and accuracy wise.  But some guys just prefer to rapid fire at dirt so reloading isn't of use to them.

My only general side note would be to avoid the independence ammo in all guns, it's generally known to be too hot for most 5.56 chambered AR15's and has been known to cause popped primers.  Popped primers is a symptom of over pressure.   I haven't had it malfunction, but you can tell by the increased recoil the ammo is really hot.  This is the ammo I am referring to http://www.bulkammo.com/bulk-5-56x45-ammo-556x45mm55grfmjxm193iindependence-500

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/9190013904/p/2

Since as was noted earlier in the lucky gunner video,  5.56 ammo is not limited to SAMMI specs since the pressure is higher,  so there is no authority that will say ''hey that 5.56 ammo is too hot you can't sell that!''

People say it's the same stuff as their brown boxed military ammo, but I believe the commercial boxed independence stuff is hotter, and much less accurate.   The standard deviation of the brown boxed stuff is really low, but the standard deviation for the Independence brand is really high, so I am 100% confident it's loaded to different specs. 
My Tavor never had any problems with it, I've shot about 700 rounds of it through a few different guns with no issues, but this is just a general FYI for the forum.  That little bit of extra velocity isn't worth popping primers.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 05:04:12 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged
paulky_2000
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 05:58:06 PM »

Buy the cheapest stuff that will cycle reliably.

Repeat.
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cciman
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 11:19:10 PM »

I just noticed this:  Independence  ammo is made by IMI in Isreal - so maybe they know something about using these in IDF weapons.  I've not used it yet personally.

"UPC: 029465063917
MFR#: XM193I
UPC: 029465063917
IndependenceŽ is a reliable and economical solution for high-volume shooting.
Caliber: 5.56
Weight: 55 Grain
Bullet: Full Metal Jacket
20 rounds per box
Made  in  Israel
Independence (owned and operated by ATK) contracted with IMI (Israel Military Industries) to produce additional 5.56x45mm to help meet current market demand. IMI is Israel's government run military production facility and is the producer of ammunition for the Israeli military."
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 11:33:34 PM »

I just noticed this:  Independence  ammo is made by IMI in Isreal - so maybe they know something about using these in IDF weapons.  I've not used it yet personally.

"UPC: 029465063917
MFR#: XM193I
UPC: 029465063917
Independence® is a reliable and economical solution for high-volume shooting.
Caliber: 5.56
Weight: 55 Grain
Bullet: Full Metal Jacket
20 rounds per box
Made  in  Israel
Independence (owned and operated by ATK) contracted with IMI (Israel Military Industries) to produce additional 5.56x45mm to help meet current market demand. IMI is Israel's government run military production facility and is the producer of ammunition for the Israeli military."

 Independence ammo is contracted under federal, and IS NOT loaded to the same specs as IMI M193 or M855 type ammo.


Just fwi.
The Independence ammo is contracted under federal.. The 9mm Independence is loaded by Lake city, the 5.56 is loaded by IWI or IMI (not sure which).  Independence ammo is loaded for civilian contracts.


This is what I have come to understand, if I am mistaken, feel free to correct me.   The thing is that Independence ammo has a huge standard deviation where as the IMI M193 has a very small standard deviation, and is not over pressured.

As far as I am aware.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 11:38:36 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged
Rick53
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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 03:11:20 PM »

My bad.  I was looking for a discussion on what ammo would be best used in an X95, 223 or 556?  Also, would like opinions on which weight and manufacturer provide best results for the X95.  Hope that clarifies.
I don't care for the dirt of steel cased ammo. Other then that use whatever you find cheapest. Wolf Gold is Quite popular and plenty accurate enough. Or you could waste alot of time and money to reload.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 05:04:31 PM »

My bad.  I was looking for a discussion on what ammo would be best used in an X95, 223 or 556?  Also, would like opinions on which weight and manufacturer provide best results for the X95.  Hope that clarifies.
I don't care for the dirt of steel cased ammo. Other then that use whatever you find cheapest. Wolf Gold is Quite popular and plenty accurate enough. Or you could waste alot of time and money to reload.

I agree with both points..
But just thought I would add...

I use basically only steel case ammo in my AK's and Glocks, and have only had 1 malfunction after tens of thousands of rounds fired.   Sounds crazy I know, but that was just my experience.  Glocks and AK's never really have problems though.  I clean and maintain all my guns though, even my AK's and Glocks  Grin
Steel case stuff is very inaccurate, and dirty though.  Supposedly it increases wear as well.

My higher end guns see a steady diet of Wolf Gold, I love the stuff, never had an issue.  As well, I find Wolf Gold to be more accurate than most other M193 variants.  I also reload much Wolf gold Brass, and find it to be just as good, as Lake city, or any other brass.. In fact, I personally think Wolf gold brass is better than Federal brass, but that is just my opinion.
 (Federal brass seems to be cut short, overall brass length is usually around 1.735-1.74.)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 05:07:41 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged
cciman
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 06:46:57 PM »

My bad.  I was looking for a discussion on what ammo would be best used in an X95, 223 or 556?  Also, would like opinions on which weight and manufacturer provide best results for the X95.  Hope that clarifies.
I don't care for the dirt of steel cased ammo. Other then that use whatever you find cheapest. Wolf Gold is Quite popular and plenty accurate enough. Or you could waste alot of time and money to reload.

The HUGEST problem I have with steel case ammo in 223 is case expansion, and stuck cases.  I have not had good experience in higher end AR's with steel case and gave up on 223 steel-- admittedly,  this was years ago and have not tried it in Tavor.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 06:51:07 PM »

My bad.  I was looking for a discussion on what ammo would be best used in an X95, 223 or 556?  Also, would like opinions on which weight and manufacturer provide best results for the X95.  Hope that clarifies.
I don't care for the dirt of steel cased ammo. Other then that use whatever you find cheapest. Wolf Gold is Quite popular and plenty accurate enough. Or you could waste alot of time and money to reload.

The HUGEST problem I have with steel case ammo in 223 is case expansion, and stuck cases.  I have not had good experience in higher end AR's with steel case and gave up on 223 steel-- admittedly,  this was years ago and have not tried it in Tavor.

FWIW
My Tavor functions flawlessly with steel case ammo.  I just usually shoot wolf gold.
First thing I did with my Tavor when I got it was test 200 rounds of Tula, and I didn't experience a single malfunction.
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cciman
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 06:58:31 PM »

My bad.  I was looking for a discussion on what ammo would be best used in an X95, 223 or 556?  Also, would like opinions on which weight and manufacturer provide best results for the X95.  Hope that clarifies.
I don't care for the dirt of steel cased ammo. Other then that use whatever you find cheapest. Wolf Gold is Quite popular and plenty accurate enough. Or you could waste alot of time and money to reload.

The HUGEST problem I have with steel case ammo in 223 is case expansion, and stuck cases.  I have not had good experience in higher end AR's with steel case and gave up on 223 steel-- admittedly,  this was years ago and have not tried it in Tavor.

FWIW
My Tavor functions flawlessly with steel case ammo.  I just usually shoot wolf gold.
First thing I did with my Tavor when I got it was test 200 rounds of Tula, and I didn't experience a single malfunction.

Have you tried Wolf steel case, in any of its variations?  If it runs fine without stuck cases then it is definitely a candidate for range training.  I have a couple cases of Classic, I need to eat.

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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 07:28:25 PM »

My bad.  I was looking for a discussion on what ammo would be best used in an X95, 223 or 556?  Also, would like opinions on which weight and manufacturer provide best results for the X95.  Hope that clarifies.
I don't care for the dirt of steel cased ammo. Other then that use whatever you find cheapest. Wolf Gold is Quite popular and plenty accurate enough. Or you could waste alot of time and money to reload.

The HUGEST problem I have with steel case ammo in 223 is case expansion, and stuck cases.  I have not had good experience in higher end AR's with steel case and gave up on 223 steel-- admittedly,  this was years ago and have not tried it in Tavor.

FWIW
My Tavor functions flawlessly with steel case ammo.  I just usually shoot wolf gold.
First thing I did with my Tavor when I got it was test 200 rounds of Tula, and I didn't experience a single malfunction.

Have you tried Wolf steel case, in any of its variations?  If it runs fine without stuck cases then it is definitely a candidate for range training.  I have a couple cases of Classic, I need to eat.



Yes I have shot thousands of rounds of wolf in many varieties.
I think it's good stuff honestly. 

Wolf and Barnaul are basically the same, and both are better than Tula.  But I have had no issues with tula either.  Although Wolf and Barnaul are more accurate than Tula from my experience.

I would buy some of this stuff I've had great results with it.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/500-round-case-223-rem-55-grain-fmj-lacquered-and-sealed-steel-case-barnaul-m


The only steel to stay away from would be Golden Tiger, I know a ton of guys love it, and the old lots of Golden Tiger are good, but in the past year Golden Tiger put out a ton of ammo with bad primers.
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Practicool
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 08:49:07 PM »

My higher end guns see a steady diet of Wolf Gold, I love the stuff, never had an issue.  As well, I find Wolf Gold to be more accurate than most other M193 variants. 

That's my experience too RabbitSlayer.  I also feed my SAR nothing but Wolf Gold, and it's been flawless.  I've seen a few problems that other guys have had, sometimes it's a picky AR or something, sometimes it's the guys shooting crap ammo.  Those who spend a bit extra on the Wolf Gold definitely see fewer probs overall.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 08:52:54 PM »

My higher end guns see a steady diet of Wolf Gold, I love the stuff, never had an issue.  As well, I find Wolf Gold to be more accurate than most other M193 variants. 

That's my experience too RabbitSlayer.  I also feed my SAR nothing but Wolf Gold, and it's been flawless.  I've seen a few problems that other guys have had, sometimes it's a picky AR or something, sometimes it's the guys shooting crap ammo.  Those who spend a bit extra on the Wolf Gold definitely see fewer probs overall.

Pretty affordable too..
Here it is for 27 cents a round before shipping.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm-ammo/1000-round-case-223-rem-55-grain-fmj-brass-case-non-magnetic-wolf-gold-ar-15-

I personally save most my brass and reload the brass; so for me I'm shooting for pretty cheap in the long run considering I'll load about 10 reloads per piece of brass.
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DOWNS
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 10:08:20 PM »

The poly coated WOLF sticks in the chamber of my AUG A3 like it's it's job. Lacquer coated ammo has been great in there.  So what WOLF polymer coated ammo I have is for my ARs at this point as they all eat it like a fat kid eats candy with no problems.  

That lacquer coated barnaul SGAMMO stuff ran great in my AUG and I managed to scoop up 3000 rounds of it before they sold out.  I asked SGAMMO if they were ever going to order anymore and they said yes but it may be a while as Barnaul requires something like a 250,000 dollar minimum order to do something like that.  Brown Bear is basically the same stuff though but a loaded a little hotter than the SGAMMO contract ammo.

I ordered up some of the Golden Tiger as well (Vampyl), SGAMMO claims they fixed the hard primers on the latest lot so we will see.  

Wolf Gold is excellent stuff.  Made in Taiwan and it's very close to being M193 ammo.  But it's about 80 dollars more per 1000 than the bulk SGAMMO Barnaul stuff was.  

I'm a big fan of Brown Bear in all my ARs and AUG.  Runs great and the lacquer coated cases feed and eject smoothly.  More so than the poly coated stuff.  

Wolf is currently made by Barnaul (at least the Polyformance is AFAIK) but I'm not sure when they switched as they used to be made by Tula.  I think I've got a few cases of the Tula made Wolf left.  
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