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Author Topic: Tavor Trigger upgrades  (Read 560 times)
RabbitSlayer
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« on: August 05, 2017, 09:42:14 PM »

I'm thinking about upgrading my Tavor Trigger, what would be the most cost effective and beneficial way to do so?

I'm still not sure if I will, because I use extra thick magnum primers, and I don't want to give up any reliability.
Do the Gisele triggers hit the primer with the same force as the stock trigger?
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silentrunning
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2017, 09:56:36 PM »

I'm thinking about upgrading my Tavor Trigger, what would be the most cost effective and beneficial way to do so?

I'm still not sure if I will, because I use extra thick magnum primers, and I don't want to give up any reliability.
Do the Gisele triggers hit the primer with the same force as the stock trigger?
I have now way of measuring the force......................................However,
I use many cci military primers which are said to be harder than the regular cci primers. The Giessele trigger  has never failed with a light primer strike. I Used their trigger since the first entered the market.....Way back when he was first selling them to the USAMU, USMC, ALL Guard, Army reserve and Navy Team for use in Service rifle Across the course and Long Range matches with the AR15.....Shooting sight has been around very long also....Art has Also been in the Highpower rifle Competition Arena......
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 10:00:52 PM by silentrunning » Logged
silentrunning
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2017, 09:59:27 PM »

Note also........

IF you fire enough rounds your firing pin Will Get a Dimple on the end of it....This is caused By the primer anvil....In combination with many rounds fired....Can also be caused by Overpressured Hot loads.....But still many rounds fired.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2017, 10:10:37 PM »

Note also........

IF you fire enough rounds your firing pin Will Get a Dimple on the end of it....This is caused By the primer anvil....In combination with many rounds fired....Can also be caused by Overpressured Hot loads.....But still many rounds fired.


I never knew that!

I usually keep my warm, but never too hot.  Some loads are right on the brink of being too hot for 223 chambers, but safe in a 5.56 chamber.  I haven't had any flattened primers with my current loads, but part of that might be because I'm using cci450 primers.
 I believe they have either similar, or identical thickness to the 41's, but I can't find 5he dimensions of the 41s right now.




So you shot the Gisele in your Tavor using 41 primers with no issues?
If so I assume I'd be good to go.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2017, 10:13:16 PM »

Btw, fwiw i find the 450 primers to work wonderfully with ball powders.  They are all I really use with my semi autos.  Haven't tried the 41s, I've wanted to, but I have several thousand 450s at the moment, and I can never find the 41s around the shops in my area.


Edit :  for those who don't know, a big reason we use the thicker military or 450 primers is to avoid slam fires, the other reason is they are better for ball powders.  Those are my reasonings anyway.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 10:17:25 PM by RabbitSlayer » Logged
silentrunning
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2017, 10:25:53 PM »

No issues with the Military CCI 41 primers or CCI BR4 or CCI400.......Also note that their is no advantage to using CCI450.....Also note that CCI BR4's are just CCI 400 that the primer paste is QC'd to be more evenly distributed in the primer cup. As far as slam fires......I have never had one in 15 years of AR15 and Match AR competition shooting.
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silentrunning
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2017, 10:30:10 PM »

So, I had 4,500 on my first X95 16 inch barrel with no light primer strikes, no sign of any dimple on the end of the firing pin and zero malfunctions. Zero malufuctions with the Giessele Trigger pack.....I have new barrel on now with no malfunctions so far also.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2017, 10:40:17 PM »

No issues with the Military CCI 41 primers or CCI BR4 or CCI400.......Also note that their is no advantage to using CCI450.....Also note that CCI BR4's are just CCI 400 that the primer paste is QC'd to be more evenly distributed in the primer cup. As far as slam fires......I have never had one in 15 years of AR15 and Match AR competition shooting.

That's good to hear. On the majority of my ammo I don't clean the primer pockets, so I like the extra security of the thicker primer even if it's just the placebo effect  Grin.

In regards to not cleaning my primer pockets, I can't definitively say if it has had any impact on accuracy.   Also due in part to the fact that I use a powder throw, so the majority of my ammo has .1-.3 variance in powder charge weight.  These bulk loads I make usually give me .9-1.5 " groups which is good enough for me.  My match loads with cleaned primer pockets, and exact powder charges are usually sub moa , but they take waaaaay longer to make.  So the minor sacrifice in precision is worth the time savings for my bulk loading purposes.  Especially considering I usually just shoot rabbits within 250 yards with them  Grin
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2017, 10:44:01 PM »

So, I had 4,500 on my first X95 16 inch barrel with no light primer strikes, no sign of any dimple on the end of the firing pin and zero malfunctions. Zero malufuctions with the Giessele Trigger pack.....I have new barrel on now with no malfunctions so far also.

Thanks for sharing, that is encouraging to hear.
Do you think the Gisele is 350$ better than the x95 trigger?
How do you feel about the Gisele trigger on the x95?
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silentrunning
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2017, 10:52:59 PM »

No issues with the Military CCI 41 primers or CCI BR4 or CCI400.......Also note that their is no advantage to using CCI450.....Also note that CCI BR4's are just CCI 400 that the primer paste is QC'd to be more evenly distributed in the primer cup. As far as slam fires......I have never had one in 15 years of AR15 and Match AR competition shooting.

That's good to hear. On the majority of my ammo I don't clean the primer pockets, so I like the extra security of the thicker primer even if it's just the placebo effect  Grin.

Well I clean all of them.....If you get enough carbon in the primer pocket it will cause the primer to be not be seated deep enough, which "Could" cause a slam fire.


In regards to not cleaning my primer pockets, I can't definitively say if it has had any impact on accuracy.   Also due in part to the fact that I use a powder throw, so the majority of my ammo has .1-.3 variance in powder charge weight.  These bulk loads I make usually give me .9-1.5 " groups which is good enough for me.  My match loads with cleaned primer pockets, and exact powder charges are usually sub moa , but they take waaaaay longer to make.  So the minor sacrifice in precision is worth the time savings for my bulk loading purposes.  Especially considering I usually just shoot rabbits within 250 yards with them  Grin
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silentrunning
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2017, 10:56:27 PM »

So, I had 4,500 on my first X95 16 inch barrel with no light primer strikes, no sign of any dimple on the end of the firing pin and zero malfunctions. Zero malufuctions with the Giessele Trigger pack.....I have new barrel on now with no malfunctions so far also.

Thanks for sharing, that is encouraging to hear.
Do you think the Gisele is 350$ better than the x95 trigger?
How do you feel about the Gisele trigger on the x95?

The trigger is lighter and break a little more crisp, and with the trigger bow it is even better.......I still have my IWI trigger as a back up just in case.
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cciman
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2017, 10:57:17 PM »

I'm thinking about upgrading my Tavor Trigger, what would be the most cost effective and beneficial way to do so?

I'm still not sure if I will, because I use extra thick magnum primers, and I don't want to give up any reliability.
Do the Gisele triggers hit the primer with the same force as the stock trigger?

I'm assuming you are trying to upgrade the x95 trigger??

I was having an issue with LPS with my new Geissele trigger pack in my x95....it was not igniting Taiwanese made 223/556 that my SAR with Geissele trigger and AR, had no issues with.  Each primer was dented but no fire, even on second and third hits >50% failure rate.  I made the mistake of not swapping out the trigger packs on the spot to test.

Sent the x95 trigger pack back-- they shipped me a new pack without explanation of issue.  I have not been back to the range with this setup to retest the ammo.

For x95, do not buy the Geissele trigger paddle - for the x95, IWI modified the SAR trigger to essentially be what Geissele sells (a solid unhinged trigger).

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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2017, 11:17:18 PM »

I'm thinking about upgrading my Tavor Trigger, what would be the most cost effective and beneficial way to do so?

I'm still not sure if I will, because I use extra thick magnum primers, and I don't want to give up any reliability.
Do the Gisele triggers hit the primer with the same force as the stock trigger?

I'm assuming you are trying to upgrade the x95 trigger??

I was having an issue with LPS with my new Geissele trigger pack in my x95....it was not igniting Taiwanese made 223/556 that my SAR with Geissele trigger and AR, had no issues with.  Each primer was dented but no fire, even on second and third hits >50% failure rate.  I made the mistake of not swapping out the trigger packs on the spot to test.

Sent the x95 trigger pack back-- they shipped me a new pack without explanation of issue.  I have not been back to the range with this setup to retest the ammo.

For x95, do not buy the Geissele trigger paddle - for the x95, IWI modified the SAR trigger to essentially be what Geissele sells (a solid unhinged trigger).



Oh snap, so your X95 was having light primer strikes with wolf gold using the Gisele?

This might be enough for me to avoid buying one.. I could reload like 2,000 rounds with that 350$+shipping.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2017, 03:57:54 AM »

Read this on a Euro reloading forum tonight.
Interesting, don't know if it's true not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were factual.
It would explain why so many AR guys get flattened primers when approaching 5.56 pressures... And why when I load similarly pressured loads with thicker primers, I don't get flat primers... or maybe I just haven't pushed past safe limits, which is totally cool in my book  Grin not trying to blow my gun up lol.

http://ukvarminting.com/forums/topic/22908-cci-450-v-br-4-primers/


* Screenshot_20170806-015254.png (192.82 KB, 720x1280 - viewed 21 times.)
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ShootingSight
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2017, 08:33:05 AM »

Timney had issues with weak hammer springs early on.  I've never heard of anyone else having issues.

That said, I have on rare occasion run into tolerence stackups between the rifle and a particular trigger, where the hammer does not quite swing clear, and a leading edge catches on something up inside the receiver as the hammer is swinging.  This can rob the hammer of enough power that you get a light strike.  Generally, if you get a magnifier and a good light, you will see a small shiny spot on the edge of the hammer where it is hitting.  A quick touch on a belt sander can fix it.

That said, since someone published primer dimensions up above, I'll comment on something incredibly stupid and dangerous ..... but really good fun.

Note that small rifle primers are 0.175 OD.  Well, I have a pellet gun that is 0.177 caliber .... so these primers are a nice fit into the bore.  Load them with the skirt pointing back, and when you shoot them, they are drag stabilized and reasonably accurate, albeit light, so their range is limited.  But the cool thing, that your mother told you never to do, is that if you shoot a rock or a plate of steel, they explode when they hit it!  Wow is that cool.

I'm sure the anvil is coming straight back at your eye, so be aware.  But shooting exploding ordinance is fun.
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Art Neergaard
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2017, 09:37:57 AM »

Timney had issues with weak hammer springs early on.  I've never heard of anyone else having issues.

That said, I have on rare occasion run into tolerence stackups between the rifle and a particular trigger, where the hammer does not quite swing clear, and a leading edge catches on something up inside the receiver as the hammer is swinging.  This can rob the hammer of enough power that you get a light strike.  Generally, if you get a magnifier and a good light, you will see a small shiny spot on the edge of the hammer where it is hitting.  A quick touch on a belt sander can fix it.

That said, since someone published primer dimensions up above, I'll comment on something incredibly stupid and dangerous ..... but really good fun.

Note that small rifle primers are 0.175 OD.  Well, I have a pellet gun that is 0.177 caliber .... so these primers are a nice fit into the bore.  Load them with the skirt pointing back, and when you shoot them, they are drag stabilized and reasonably accurate, albeit light, so their range is limited.  But the cool thing, that your mother told you never to do, is that if you shoot a rock or a plate of steel, they explode when they hit it!  Wow is that cool.

I'm sure the anvil is coming straight back at your eye, so be aware.  But shooting exploding ordinance is fun.


Haha that is awesome !  I'll have to try that sometime!  I never thought about that  Grin 

Interesting note about the tolerances as well.  I have mixed feelings about messing with the Tavors fire control group.  My Tavor X95 has been 100% reliable for thousands of rounds, I don't want to mess with that.  However, a trigger upgrade could be pretty fun.  I have no complaints about the X95 trigger as it is so far, once you learn that it breaks a mm or two past the wall, it's pretty easy to shoot groups with.  Light triggers are fun though.
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Rastoff
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2017, 10:55:01 AM »

In regards to not cleaning my primer pockets, I can't definitively say if it has had any impact on accuracy.
I'd be stunned if cleaning the primer pocket has an affect on accuracy in any rifle, let alone the X95. This rifle is just not accurate enough in general to see any difference from this small of an aspect. I'll defer to you on the long range precision stuff.


I bought the Geissele Super Sabra and Lightening Bow for my X95 almost immediately. I got them both for just under $300 to my door so, I didn't want to pass that up.

The Super Sabra is indeed more crisp and lighter, but not significantly so. The big difference is seen with the Lightening Bow in my opinion.

The trigger pack is just a drop in, literally. The Lightening Bow is a little more challenging, but much easier than it seems. Anyone with moderate mechanical ability can do it. The difference it makes is in the slack. When adjusted properly, it completely removes the slack in the trigger. Even if you buy one at MSRP it's worth it. However, at $345, I can't recommend the Super Sabra. It's an upgrade, but not a dramatic one. The factory upgraded trigger pack is really well done. It's not as nice as the Geissele, but very close.

Having said all that, I've had absolutely no issues with the Super Sabra in my X95. No light strikes, no failures to fire of any kind. Of course I only have 543 rounds through my gun so far. So, my experience is somewhat limited. I can say that all my shots have been taken with Wold Gold, Magtech or American Eagle, all of which is cheap ammo. I don't get the accuracy you're getting with your hand loads (I'm getting about 2-2.5MOA), but they've all fired.
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Mikelindsey
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2017, 11:54:26 AM »

I put a Timney in mine and couldn't be happier.
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Halmbarte
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2017, 01:06:23 PM »

I went with Art's trigger* and have been very pleased. It works fine with all the ammo I've tried, including 9mmP. After thousands of rounds there is only the slightest of wear.

The manufacturing quality is superb, the materials are great, and Art has always been a great guy to deal with. Art isn't the first guy to market with a trigger set, but his designs are very good.

https://shootingsight.com/product/tavor-le-2-stage-trigger-delrin-housing/

H

*Actually, I have his Sig 55X, SCAR, and Beretta triggers too. They are all nicely designed and made.
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Grizz
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2017, 07:27:55 PM »

I'm confused??

How does the trigger affect the spring tension/pressure on the firing pin?
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