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Author Topic: Can you run 45 degree offset sights on an AUG?  (Read 4684 times)
desertmoon
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« on: August 04, 2017, 07:10:14 PM »

My current backups, even with Pete's rail, just don't have enough distance between them to give me a good sight picture.

Playing with my AUG, it doesn't seem that offset sights will work, even with the extended rail.

I was going to use XS big game style speed sights....but I am not sure I can get them to work right?

Anybody have experience or feedback for me on how that will or won't work?

Thanks, Gang!!!!
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desertmoon
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2017, 08:11:52 PM »

I did a dry run with some griffin M2s I have for another project.  Umm....looking down the ejection port made me change my mind....FAST.

I am gonna run a Blitskrieg tritium front post, which is much thicker than the OEM Magpul Pro front.  I think that may get realllll close to doing the trick.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 08:28:38 PM by desertmoon » Logged
DOWNS
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 09:50:20 PM »

All of my long guns up to the last two have had backup irons and I finally have accepted that modern optics are to the point that backup irons may not really be needed. Anything that's going to kill the ACOG on my AUG is probably going to kill me in the process. Or it's an environment I don't want to be in.

I have a "pistol" AR that I haven't put irons on either. I trust the Holosuns and Primary Arms ADS sights enough that I don't feel that I'm loosing anything but weight by not putting back ups on the gun.
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LazyEngineer
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2017, 04:55:15 PM »

An A3 M1 with integrated optic has a vertical railed portion that is perfect for a red dot reflex sight.  Run a little one off the scope at that 90 degree angle,  and a simple 30 degree rotation puts that in front of your eye at the perfect height.  I mean just perfect.

Then you look down and notice the ejection port is aimed right at your face - and think better.

This is why I switched to a laser for CQB.  And run my integral 3x for general purpose.

[Edit - fixed typo's from cell-phone based post]
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 01:57:28 PM by LazyEngineer » Logged
desertmoon
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2017, 07:11:34 PM »

An A3 M1 with integrated optic has a vertical railed portion that is perfect for a red dot reflex sight.  run a little one off the scooe at that 90 degree angle,  and a simple 30 degree rotation pots that in frying puff your eye at the perfect height.

then you look down and notice the ejection port is aimed right at your face - and think better.

This is why I swirched to a laser for CQB.  And 3x  for general.


Yeah, I remember as if it was only yesterday...oh, wait....it WAS yesterday!!!!  I looked through the temporary sights I put on the gun and thought, "Yeah!  This'll work!"

....and then I looked down and the first thing that popped into my head was..."You ******!"

Lazy....I like your LASER idea.  A lot!
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leopardprey
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2017, 07:16:05 PM »

Have you tried out the new extended rail?  You should not have an issue with backup sights, located to the very front and rear of the rail.   

Or you cold get a new STG77 scope, it has sights on the top of the scope - though I find a bit hard to see.

When I had my A3, I was running BUIS and an optic, with no issues, though was tight.

Personally I think the whole canted BUIS thing is pretty lame.

And the issue of a good quality optic failing on you is very very rare.  And if at CQB distances, you can get buy not even using any sights.  Most CQB fighting, room to room (like a SD in your house would be) is pretty much going to be instinctive shooting anyway - if you have extensively trained that way. 
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desertmoon
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2017, 09:06:08 PM »

I am running Pete's rail.  MUCH better...but still too short.  Nothing to be done about it because it's an A3M1....

Steyr really should have stuck with the A3....a much better system.
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LazyEngineer
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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 02:01:56 PM »


And the issue of a good quality optic failing on you is very very rare.  And if at CQB distances, you can get buy not even using any sights.  Most CQB fighting, room to room (like a SD in your house would be) is pretty much going to be instinctive shooting anyway - if you have extensively trained that way. 


For me, it's not really about a back-up sight, because like you, I've come to realize that's just not necessary.  Today's main sights optical systems that worth half a damned, aren't going to fail on you.  And in many of the settings where let's say it does - you're still likely to be OK.  The reason I run a second alignment system as to do with expanding the rifle capabilities - by going from a general purpose 3X integrated optic (which I love), to a different faster-action sighting system in that 0-25 yard range.  which can be zero'd differently.  I find that optics slow me down when under 50 yards.  That's the real reason I run a second set, and for me, being able to rotate 45 degrees for it would be pretty swell, as that gets the optic completely out of the way -  but that's not really on the table with an AUG.
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leopardprey
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 04:24:00 PM »

You have a RMR on top of your scope, correct?

You ever play around with mounting the RMR only?   Looking at the RMR and wondering if it will work with the low mount  option.   
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Jack Flag
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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 06:13:01 PM »

I'm not Lazyengineer (  Shocked ) but I know he did run a cheapie little ebay, reflex/red dot on top of his 3x scope for a while to try out the concept. I believe found it sits too high for his liking . So now he just has a laser on the gun for CQB type distances. Which I understand the reasoning behind.

I have an Aimpoint T2 on top of my 3x scope. I may switch it to an RMR (I have an extra) to get an even slightly lower red dot. I find that, while the Aimpoint is rather high over the bore. It still works for minute of asshole, if I need to use the gun (it's my HD rifle) in my home. I also have a laser on my gun as well. I mean even with a light, the 3x scope could work in the dark. But it's still slower (for me) than using the red dot on top of the scope or a laser for CQB or point shooting.

I'm guessing that Steyr went with the scope height they did on the M1 because they figured that's what US consumers would be using the most. I guess they figured since folks wanted an A3 SF like gun, they went with that rationale? Why they didn't just use the A3 SF height/mold/machining/etc, I have no idea. Honestly, the height over bore difference isn't all that much compared from the A3 SF to the M1, like .4 inches IIRC. But it can make a big difference when shooting. I have a big noggin. But I could use the A3 SF scope height just fine. But the M1 is fine as well. Honestly, anytime you mount a second optic on top of another. Whether it be a red dot on top the Steyr scope. Or a dot on top of a scope on any gun. Or a piggybacked RMR on top of an ACOG, you'll have that second sight sitting pretty high.  Some people like it, some hate it.

I'm not sure what you mean by the RMR and a low mount.

Apologies if needed. I don't mean to speak for Lazyengineer. But I included my thinking above.

Lazyengineer. IIRC you're using the 3x scope as a general purpose optic. And your laser for some type of point shooting, correct?
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leopardprey
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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2017, 07:04:34 PM »

RMR on a low mount, mounted to a Steyr extended rail or short rail.  No AUG scope. 
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Jack Flag
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 02:26:00 AM »

I personally haven't tried a low mount and RMR on the AUG with either th extended/aka Pete rail or with the other rails. Either the semi triangular long rail or the super short/short rail on the M1

Of course I don't know if you're talking about this kind of low mount: https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/749413/trijicon-rmr-low-weaver-mount-matte?cm_mmc=pf_ci_connexity-_-Optics+-+Scope+Rings%2C+Bases%2C+Mounting+%26+Accessories-_-Trijicon-_-749413

Or this kind of low mount.

http://shop.opticsplanet.com/trijicon-low-picatinny-rail-mount-for-rmr-sights.html?_iv_code=TJ-RMT-RM33-1

I could mess with the super low mount and the Pete rail and the triangular "long" rail and an RMR. I don't know if any combo would work. Since the Pete rail is the same heigt over bore as an AR. I would think either kinds of low mounts would be too low. And with the triangular long rail, since it sits high like the high military rail from the old A3. The higher low mount might work. Or the super low could MAYBE work. I had an Aimpoint T2 on the triangular, long rail with a set of CZ  BUIS. It worked OK.

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maitake
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 10:04:58 AM »

I was going to go for a Vortex Venom 3MOA on top of the stock 3X scope. A lot of the reflex sights, and especially the larger red dot sights, look too tall for this purpose. The vortex reflex sights are just a little wide and appear to sit low. I'll report back how it goes once I get one, unless somebody talks me out of it!
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Jack Flag
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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 09:47:24 PM »

Well, the height difference may or may not make much of an actual difference in performance. Any optic is gonna sit  pretty high on top of an M1 optic housing. I have the same Aimpoint T2 on my AUG. I've been meaning to try a small reflex sight on it instead, just for observations. I've got a Vortex Viper (sits lower than a Venom) and an RMR to try out. Key is finding the lowest pic mount possible.
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Jack Flag
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« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 03:53:15 AM »

I recently pulled out my Vortex Viper (about the same as the Venom, but the Viper sits a little lower because the battery loads at the bottom like a Trijicon RMR). I was using a low mount like this with the Viper: https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/RM33-Low-Picatinny-Rail-Mount-for-RMR-p/trijicon-ac32004.htm

It appears obviously. That a reflex sight  like a RMR, Vortex Viper, Venom (a smidge higher because it top loads) sits about the same as a micro red dot (with a low mount) like an Aimpoint T1/T2, Bushnell TRS25, Primary Arms micro knockoff, etc.

I put the Viper right in front of my Aimpoint T2. And height was nearly identical. Dots were pretty much right on top of each other.
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maitake
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« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 09:45:04 AM »

Thanks for that Jack. So I guess it doesn't matter which after all. The Aimpoint sights are more expensive.  Shocked
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LazyEngineer
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« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 04:05:21 PM »



Apologies if needed. I don't mean to speak for Lazyengineer. But I included my thinking above.

Lazyengineer. IIRC you're using the 3x scope as a general purpose optic. And your laser for some type of point shooting, correct?


No worries on that - glad to have it noted and shared in fact.  As to the laser for point shooting, I only now finally got me a green laser.  So up to date, I've been using a red laser - and alas, not really.  Because the indoor carbine matches I go to, refuse to allow lasers (because they're 1980's Luddites I guess).  And the red doesn't work outdoors.  So I "used" it around the house and really like it, but haven't fired very many rounds with it active.  SO! I finally got my green laser (which supposedly will work during the day), just as my AUG went out of commission for some repairs - so haven't had a chance to really put it through the paces yet (darnit!)  But in a few weeks, I plan on it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 04:07:05 PM by LazyEngineer » Logged
Jack Flag
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 09:50:50 PM »

Thanks for that Jack. So I guess it doesn't matter which after all. The Aimpoint sights are more expensive.  Shocked

Yeah, the micro Aimpoints are money. Cheesy Even the older T1/H1 or or the H2 (no night vision capable) are pricey. Of course the Trijicon RMR are money too. Though Cabelas has been blowing out the Type 1 RMR since before the Type 2 RMR came out for $350 or less. I bought one for that. Not a bad price for a tough mini reflex sights. http://www.cabelas.com/product/TRIJICON-RMR-ADJUSTABLE-LED-SIGHT/2047219.uts?productVariantId=4195676&WT.tsrc=PPC&WT.mc_id=BingPLA&WT.z_mc_id1=04181433&rid=20&gclid=CMnI4P6DydUCFYX9fgodBNEMdw&gclsrc=ds They might only be doing the 6.5 moa Type 1 now. For a while they were doing all the models. You might not mind the larger dot. But I have astigmatism. The 3 moa dot looks like a 6. And a 6 moa dot (like on my Vortex Viper) is huge.

Here's my Viper and T2

The sight picture (glass) is nearly the same. So is the height of the glass.





Aimpoint dot on top. Looking through the T2, I can see the top of the Vortex housing and there's a small sliver of air between them. I can see the top of the rear housing of the Vortex as well.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:22:12 AM by Jack Flag » Logged
ttarp
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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 10:32:01 PM »

Could you make the pictures bigger?  I can barely see them...

Sorry to poke fun, but those have to be some of the biggest pics on site!
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Jack Flag
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« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 12:26:11 AM »

Could you make the pictures bigger?  I can barely see them...

Sorry to poke fun, but those have to be some of the biggest pics on site!

Yes, I could probably make the pictures bigger.  Grin Shocked Grin

It's Imgur man. Ever since Photobucketapocalypse, I switched to Imgur. I never know how big or huge my pics are gonna be until I post them in a forum. Never had that issue with PB.  Evil
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