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Author Topic: Pessimism (take with a grain of salt)  (Read 1544 times)
Tubal
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 05:09:21 PM »

Quote
They sell extremely over priced ammo, and they sell suppressors for 2,000$ that cost literally 20$ to make.

I'll take 100 of these at $100 each.  That'll give you $8000 profit.

There are tons of companies that sell full auto rated suppressors that weigh less than 18 oz, with 32+ db reduction for around 500$.  All these companies use basically the same steel and technologies, and if it wasn't a niche market induced by NFA laws, then these suppressors would be selling for not much more then we currently buy automobile oil filers for.


I believe their $2000 one is Titanium, in the larger calibers (.338 and .50).  It's also got some design features that are unique.  But $2000 for a titanium suppressor is pretty standard.

If I wanted to put a water bottle over the end of my barrel, I'm sure I could do it for less than $20.  When you say it literally costs DT $20 to make their $2000 suppressor you lose pretty much all your credibility.
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Mr__Coffee
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2017, 05:12:22 PM »

pretty sure a titanium wedding ring has $20 worth the work/materials in it...
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2017, 05:15:46 PM »

They sell extremely over priced ammo

Thanks for reminding me that I wanted to buy a box of 6.5 Creedmoor ammo from them. At $29.99/box it's at the lower end of the scale for that caliber. If it's as consistent as they claim, it'll save me a bunch of $$$$.

I would trust this ammo as it is proven, with proven components, for a significantly better price.  The ELD bullet is top of the line.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200-round-box-65-creedmoor-hornady-140-grain-eld-match-ammo-81500
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HBeretta
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2017, 05:29:29 PM »

...or maybe logistics have played into this as well.  DT mentioned 'gearing' up with new equipment and so on.  hiring competent employees for such plays into this as well; could take several months; determining in house and vending capabilities, training, etc...

3.5 yrs is short compared to their competitors for a ground up platform.  

Pessimism is right...grain of salt taken.  Yeah they should've owned up to the apparent lies of the process taking longer.  But, they're founded on an innovative bullpup bolt precision rifle that garners 3rd world interest.  Obviously, we'll see how this pans out, but I'm certainly not running with gossip from a vendor downing combat proven rifles from IWI while spewing reliability talk...all the while selling kel-tecs; talk about irony.  It made for a good laugh though.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 05:32:54 PM by HBeretta » Logged
EWTHeckman
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2017, 05:36:03 PM »

I would trust this ammo as it is proven, with proven components, for a significantly better price.  The ELD bullet is top of the line.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200-round-box-65-creedmoor-hornady-140-grain-eld-match-ammo-81500

I haven't had much time to spend behind the new rifle yet. But I have tried that ammo. Two three shot groups at 200 yards gave me 2.779 inches (1.327 MOA) and 2.146 inches (1.025 MOA)

That ammo was beaten by this ammo: http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200-round-case-65-creedmoor-143-grain-eld-x-hornady-precision-hunter-ammo-81499  (Which, BTW, is a much better price than I can get locally.)

That gave me a 1.275 inch group at 200 yards; 0.609 MOA.

I've found that accuracy involves more that just the bullet. I've done testing (in a different rifle and caliber) where two different loads used the same bullet but one beat the snot out of the other in accuracy in my rifle.

That's why I'm testing multiple loads from different manufacturers.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2017, 05:39:32 PM »

Quote
They sell extremely over priced ammo, and they sell suppressors for 2,000$ that cost literally 20$ to make.

I'll take 100 of these at $100 each.  That'll give you $8000 profit.

There are tons of companies that sell full auto rated suppressors that weigh less than 18 oz, with 32+ db reduction for around 500$.  All these companies use basically the same steel and technologies, and if it wasn't a niche market induced by NFA laws, then these suppressors would be selling for not much more then we currently buy automobile oil filers for.


I believe their $2000 one is Titanium, in the larger calibers (.338 and .50).  It's also got some design features that are unique.  But $2000 for a titanium suppressor is pretty standard.

If I wanted to put a water bottle over the end of my barrel, I'm sure I could do it for less than $20.  When you say it literally costs DT $20 to make their $2000 suppressor you lose pretty much all your credibility.



Actually your statement is wildly incorrect...
Here is a full auto rated can that sells for less than 500$ before tax that weighs 13.5 oz, there are also tons of cans using the same technology for the same price point.
https://yhm.net/turbo-stainless.html

some large bores...

https://www.silencershop.com/silencers/large-bore.html?dir=asc&order=price

338 titanium at half the price of DT, https://www.silencershop.com/silencers/large-bore/sig-sauer-srd338ti-qd.html

https://www.silencershop.com/silencers/large-bore/griffin-sportsman-ultra-light-338.html


I could post a ton more, but even still, you could build you own for much less than anything on the market.

You say I lost all credibility, yet I was obviously giving approximate numbers.  If you surf the Suppressor forums you will see that you can make full auto rated cans for very small amounts of money, especially if you but the materials in bulk.   It's actually much more simple then many would be lead to believe.  As well, the same goes for reloading match ammo.


Before you guys get too defensive, I made my statements because if some vendor is going to down talk the Tavor but give excuses for the MDR, then I will give my opinions on the subject.  There are better suppression options, better ammo options, and better gun options on the market.  That is the thing about capitalism, we can all buy whatever we want, and companies can charge whatever they want.  It truly is a buyers market, and for guys that don't have huge incomes, it's smart to both research; and figure out how to build your own stuff.  In regards to Ammo and Suppressors, the smart option is to roll your own ammo, and build your own cans.  But hey, money isn't a problem for some, if I was loaded with cash I wouldn't load my own ammo, or be concerned about a few hundred bucks here and there.


I do hope that the MDR gets worked out, that it functions great, and that they can be a good business with better prices.  Overall that would be good for the entire gun market.  However at the current point, there are so many better options available, I see no point in waiting for the MDR.  Hopefully they get it all worked out, but for now I've lost basically all interest.   If the MDR actually gets out, does well, and drops the price, I will consider buying one.  Although still, I would personally trust any weapon built by IWI over DT.

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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2017, 05:42:39 PM »

I would trust this ammo as it is proven, with proven components, for a significantly better price.  The ELD bullet is top of the line.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200-round-box-65-creedmoor-hornady-140-grain-eld-match-ammo-81500

I haven't had much time to spend behind the new rifle yet. But I have tried that ammo. Two three shot groups at 200 yards gave me 2.779 inches (1.327 MOA) and 2.146 inches (1.025 MOA)

That ammo was beaten by this ammo: http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/200-round-case-65-creedmoor-143-grain-eld-x-hornady-precision-hunter-ammo-81499  (Which, BTW, is a much better price than I can get locally.)

That gave me a 1.275 inch group at 200 yards; 0.609 MOA.

I've found that accuracy involves more that just the bullet. I've done testing (in a different rifle and caliber) where two different loads used the same bullet but one beat the snot out of the other in accuracy in my rifle.

That's why I'm testing multiple loads from different manufacturers.


True, I personally don't shoot that caliber so I'm sorry I can't be of better assistance.  I do reload alot of 7mm and 5.56 though.  I'm really glad I got into reloading, there is so much you can do for such great prices.   My reloading equipment payed for it'self within about a month, or about 600 rounds of loaded ammo.
If I was going to shoot the 6mm calibers, I would for sure reload for them, as I don't see a plethora of factory ammo for a good price on the market.
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RabbitSlayer
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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 05:44:44 PM »

...or maybe logistics have played into this as well.  DT mentioned 'gearing' up with new equipment and so on.  hiring competent employees for such plays into this as well; could take several months; determining in house and vending capabilities, training, etc...

3.5 yrs is short compared to their competitors for a ground up platform.  

Pessimism is right...grain of salt taken.  Yeah they should've owned up to the apparent lies of the process taking longer.  But, they're founded on an innovative bullpup bolt precision rifle that garners 3rd world interest.  Obviously, we'll see how this pans out, but I'm certainly not running with gossip from a vendor downing combat proven rifles from IWI while spewing reliability talk...all the while selling kel-tecs; talk about irony.  It made for a good laugh though.

I agree with all said in this post.
Staff and equipment will drive a products price up a ton.  I hope the company does well, but for guys like me who have to put in overtime to buy new guns, price plays a huge part in all investments.
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ammomans
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« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 06:00:59 PM »

...or maybe logistics have played into this as well.  DT mentioned 'gearing' up with new equipment and so on.  hiring competent employees for such plays into this as well; could take several months; determining in house and vending capabilities, training, etc...

3.5 yrs is short compared to their competitors for a ground up platform.  

Pessimism is right...grain of salt taken.  Yeah they should've owned up to the apparent lies of the process taking longer.  But, they're founded on an innovative bullpup bolt precision rifle that garners 3rd world interest.  Obviously, we'll see how this pans out, but I'm certainly not running with gossip from a vendor downing combat proven rifles from IWI while spewing reliability talk...all the while selling kel-tecs; talk about irony.  It made for a good laugh though.

Again, I know nothing about manufacturing, but it seems that if they were simply 'gearing up', they should be able to ship out production rifles just at a lower pace until they are done gearing up.

Does anyone remember when they announced the MDR back at Shot 2014 did they have a functioning prototype?  Or was it nothing more than eye candy?  Even it it wasn't functional, they must have been working on it for a while leading up to that point, I just don't know how long...
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kfeltenberger
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2017, 12:10:52 AM »

Indeed--be careful, this isn't Arfcom. Here, any words against DT or criticism of how they're handling the MDR situation will be met with swift snarky retribution. I will say though, even the hardcore DT fans seem to be chilling out a bit lately and *may* finally be starting to see why many of us have our complaints.

I won't speak for the others, but I've been busy and really am tired of the abuse for my stand on the issue.  It would be one thing if things were kept focused on the topic, but it's gotten personal to the point that threads have been closed and that pushes the me to step back and evaluate whether it's worth my time to contribute. 
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Kurt
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2017, 03:33:55 AM »

pretty sure a titanium wedding ring has $20 worth the work/materials in it...

I bought a grade 5 titanium tube thick enough to handle 308 for 30$
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Chief Master
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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2017, 08:37:57 AM »

Does anyone remember when they announced the MDR back at Shot 2014 did they have a functioning prototype?  Or was it nothing more than eye candy?  Even it it wasn't functional, they must have been working on it for a while leading up to that point, I just don't know how long...

They had functioning prototypes in Dec 2014 when they invited reviewers out to their facility to test fire the rifles and give feedback.
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ammomans
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« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2017, 08:48:40 AM »

I won't speak for the others, but I've been busy and really am tired of the abuse for my stand on the issue.  It would be one thing if things were kept focused on the topic, but it's gotten personal to the point that threads have been closed and that pushes the me to step back and evaluate whether it's worth my time to contribute. 

Its a challenging situation for sure - some are so optimistic that they don't want to read anything negative.  Others are so frustrated they need a place to vent.  And many of us are somewhere in between.

For me personally, it has been an emotional rollercoaster.  And regardless of where I'm at on the "ride", I always want to justify and defend my view.  But just like in marriage, sometimes we all need to agree to disagree!

Right now, I am not sure where I stand.  But I am strongly leaning towards canceling my preorder depending on the August update.  Its been a long 1 1/2 years, and I am loosing faith.  

But I figure, whats the worst that could happen if I cancel?  They could start shipping the next week, which will give reviewers a chance to run it through the paces.  If all looks good, I could re-order and wait 6-12 months (maybe more) and pay an extra 10%.  I'm not in a huge rush - I've lived this long without it, whats another year or two?  As long as it comes out and I can get it before the next presidential election, I think I'll be good! Smiley
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wagrn
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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 10:26:18 AM »

I mostly set back and watch/read the posts, but some times I see things that make me question. Like all of this about pricing of cans and ammo.  So what if you can buy a titanium  sleave for $30 do you have the right equipment to weld titanium, do you have cnc equipment to make baffles. To compare DT to SIG is crazy.  They have the machinery and personnel to eat some of the cost unlike DT, and SIG still screws up sometimes.  DT has done a lot wrong but damn it gets old all of the negativity for something new.  It doesn't happen over night or is the first go ever perfect.  I give ST all the props for going outside of the comfort zone and doing something different.
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Mr__Coffee
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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2017, 11:27:07 AM »

pretty sure a titanium wedding ring has $20 worth the work/materials in it...

I bought a grade 5 titanium tube thick enough to handle 308 for 30$

I havent worked with titanium... did you get the baffolds and threading on there straight for cheap as well?
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Tvfreakarms
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2017, 04:56:10 PM »

If seems this guy doesn't like bullpups design.
What was his issue with the tavor?

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk

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ammomans
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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2017, 05:08:15 PM »

If seems this guy doesn't like bullpups design.
What was his issue with the tavor?

No, he was selling an RDB, RFB and KSG, so clearly he likes bullpups.  I was so focused on his MDR comments that I didn't think to drill in further into his views on the Tavor.
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Tvfreakarms
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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2017, 05:11:24 PM »

How long r u guys willing to wait? Another 2 yrs is a long time.
If they had "functioning "rifles at this yrs shot show,  then why more delays.
It's obvious they had couple rifles they really worked on hard to make it to work for this past yr shot show.
I get R&D takes time. But DT shouldn't had taken pre orders and announced a release date.
Again they took on a huge project for a small company that didn't have the proper funding and possible the right engineers. Or they had the right people to work on the MDR and maybe too much internal debacle and engineers quoting,  or having issues with suppliers cause dt didn't pay them etc etc.

I'm from Cali I couldn't get this rifle if I wanted to 😂
I hope they will come out with a good product.
It's good for the gun industry and better good competition.

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HBeretta
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« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2017, 05:33:07 PM »

If all looks good, I could re-order and wait 6-12 months (maybe more) and pay an extra 10%.

or you may not have to wait or pay the extra 10%.  with iwi's 308 on the horizon, it changes a lot.  if DT struggles with production and iwi launches the tavor 7, along with potential preorders dropping due to the competing launch...you may very well be in a good position to obtain one easily and at cost.   and, if you're really lucky, someone wanting to sell may part with theirs for a couple of hundred less.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 05:40:46 PM by HBeretta » Logged
pokemon1989
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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2017, 07:38:57 PM »

I do believe this theory of needing to rework the rifle is true.  "Depends on the testing results, we want to put a couple thousand rounds on them to ensure they are good."  This was said when asked about an ETA.


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