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Author Topic: Optics - Magnified or Red Dot?  (Read 1458 times)
Rastoff
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« on: May 19, 2017, 06:07:10 PM »

I've reached a point in my life where I need optics. To my eyes, the ghost ring and post are just blurs. The tiny hole on the X95 helps, but isn't as good as it used to be. Consequently, I've put a Trijicon MRO on my X95. I like it a lot, but at 100 yards it's a little tough to see the target.

I have a 3x ACOG (TA33) on an AR-15. I like it better because of the magnification. 3x is just enough to make 100 or 200 yard targets easily visible, but not so much that a 10 yard target is hard to acquire quickly. I'm thinking of moving the ACOG over to the Tavor.

Here's the question; what do you like on your Tavor? Why?
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tavor hollow
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 07:24:29 PM »

If you like trijicon check out the rs27. 1x8x28 34mm tube you can get moa or mil mil.really a nice set up I don't have one yet I have the tr24 red triangle post. The rs 27 is what I dreamed of then trijicon made it. It is first focal plane. I saw one on eBay for 1170.00 normal 1450.00 its a little heavy but that doesn't matter to me.my tr24 is my #1 choice for tavor. 300 yards should be easy.the mro is something I may want someday,but I have so many optics I need to buy more guns.
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Heavy
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 11:18:20 PM »

Why not get an rmr mount on your acog, and have both.
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Screwball
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2017, 06:41:09 AM »

On 5.56mm rifles, I tend to run red dots or lower powered scopes (on my 18" AR, a Weaver 1.5-6x). When I do lower powered scopes, even though I can engage closer targets at 1.5x, I prefer offset iron sights.

On my red dot equipped rifles, I do have a 3x magnifier... if need be. At the very least, it allows me to get a more accurate zero. But that way, if I don't need it at all, I can pull it off/not install. If I may need it, I have a LaRue flip to side mount... so it is just a toggle to the right and it is out of my line of sight (if need be, you can roll the rifle over and use it for identification). Nevertheless, on all of my red dot rifles, I have backup iron sights. The Tavor runs an Aimpoint PRO, which works with the stock sights. I have a PRO and CompM4s on my ARs, with Magpul MBUS Pro and MBUS, respectfully on a 5.56mm piston and a .45 D/I. If the red dot is too damaged to sight through, all of the Aimpoints have a QD mount... so I can pull them off if need be. My 18" AR has an Aero mount, which I need tools to take off, so that is another reason I went offset irons.
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Halmbarte
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2017, 12:16:01 PM »

It depends on what you're trying to do.

Aimpoints (and the other reflex type sights) are very fast to get on target from touching distance to ~300 yards or so. They don't help you much over irons for precision shooting at distance.

Magnified optics are better at long range, but increases in magnification result in reduced FOV and slow you down when searching for targets.

There isn't any solution that doesn't have some drawback to it.

H
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tavor hollow
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2017, 01:18:41 PM »

If you like trijicon you really need to look through the 1x4-6 or8x at 1x I see better clearer then my old eyes can. Engaging one target after another is effortless. Maybe its just the illumination of the tr24 fiber optics tr27 is led. I've had slide to side magnifiers on eotech. For me its less than optimum. Shop trijicon its almost as good as my dog.
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azklaus
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2017, 01:32:28 PM »

I'd go with both...  Grin


* 18320791_10155261973773210_2050015834113919811_o.jpg (94.94 KB, 1440x841 - viewed 45 times.)
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tavor hollow
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2017, 03:14:44 PM »

If you have your mro which I hear are nice,ad a vortex x3 at about $200 your in for $600+ without mount. I don't think I would go less than vortex3x. Even though the x95 isn't precision shooter doesn't mean you can't pull off good shots at distance. Everybody acts like every situation is in your house or car, but what if its 3-4-500 yards a 1x8 with moa or mil. Would be handy just dial a ring. I need to look and see what top 3 gun guys use. I guess I'm bored so I keep posting.
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Mikelindsey
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2017, 03:24:03 PM »

Why don't you just buy a flip up and down magnifier to go behind your Trijicon?
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Rastoff
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2017, 04:38:35 PM »

Hmmm, lots of responses telling me what I should do, but only a couple answer the question; what do YOU like and why?
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2017, 05:58:33 PM »

I have an ACOG (TA31RCO 4x32) and a red dot (Mepro M5/RDS Pro). For home defense, I use the red dot exclusively. I live in a big neighborhood so realistically the only time I'd need to use the optic in a self-defense situation is probably going to be inside of my house. That makes magnification more of a hindrance than a help. The red dot is the easiest and fastest thing to pick up so that's what I use. The ACOG is awesome though and if I had a lot of private land I'd be sure to have that mounted and ready to go 24/7.

I didn't like the RMR on top of the ACOG because its height makes getting a good cheek weld difficult. It felt awkward to me, but I'm sure with practice one can get proficient with it. Still, I like having the large window and the red dot.

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tavor hollow
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2017, 07:35:46 PM »

Well,maybe the enthusiasm to help someone overwhelmed us and we forgot to follow the guidelines of your rules? I am not an expert, but I have spent a lot of money and a lot of it was wasted on crap or less than adaptive products. For me the acog is an interesting optic, but I am glad I did not buy one because of lack of adaptability 1.5" eye relief fixed power. I laugh at movies that have acogs in close quarters , but maybe they work good at that and I just don't know? So what do you want this equipment to do? What is your everyday carry needs? Do you carry your x95 or is it a safe queen? I really want thermal and all the videos I've watched with 100s of thousands of dollars in equipment and I still don't know if it will do what I want or how much I need to spend to get there. Maybe gearhead can figure it out? Just trying to be helpful sorry.
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Rastoff
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2017, 11:04:44 PM »

Well,maybe the enthusiasm to help someone overwhelmed us and we forgot to follow the guidelines of your rules?
My rules? I didn't set any rules. I just asked a simple question. Please understand, I understand and even appreciate the desire to help. I was just looking for other's views and how they use their guns.

I am not an expert, but I have spent a lot of money and a lot of it was wasted on crap or less than adaptive products. For me the acog is an interesting optic, but I am glad I did not buy one because of lack of adaptability 1.5" eye relief fixed power.
Thank you for that.

I laugh at movies that have acogs in close quarters...
No need to laugh, they're not the best at close quarters, but they do work. At less than 5 yards they tend to be a little blurry. Then again if that was the primary distance, I'd probably stick with the red dot.

I'm not super experienced with my X95. This is why I'm asking what others do. Just kind of looking to see what different people prefer and how they use their guns. I only have 453 rounds through mine. Definitely not a safe queen, but I've only had it for a few months. I will use it at the range mostly. Various target distances from 7 yards to 100 with the occasional 200 yard shot. Obviously this is a great CQB gun, but I will mainly use it in 3 gun or just plinking. I put the TA33 on it today and got it zeroed in. I'll play with that for a while.

A note on eye relief...
I chose the TA33 because it has better eye relief than other ACOGs. It's not long at about 2", but it allows me to get closer to the scope while maintaining a crystal clear reticle. So, I set it up for about 1.5" which allows clear vision from 1"-2" of eye relief. Then, if I move my head a little during the mount, I still get a clear picture and it comes up very quickly.
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Rick53
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2017, 10:39:24 AM »

I have several aimpoint T1 T2 and H2 : I also have a Holosun 503 with the acss :  A Trijicon 3x30 and Primary Arms 5X Prism. I have switched back and forth several times doing speed drills.  I seem to be the quickest with the 5x prism . Which is fine at 10 yards and really quick at 100 and 200 yards. I could most likely use it farther out, but haven't been to a Public range to try. So limited to my Home range distances. 

With 2 eyes open shooting IMO it's a fallacy that magnification doesn't work close up. I have near perfect vision still. SO a Red Dot works fine. There's just something about the reticle on the PA Prism that draws you in on target fast. At least that's my experience

So if you are thinking of installing the Trijicon on your Tavor. I'd say that was a good choice. I like mine alot. I just like the 5X magnification a tad better. Mostly due to the reticle . The Trijicon is lighter weight : Fortunately the little extra weight isn't an issue with the Tavor's excellent offhand balance: 
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757_Magnum
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2017, 11:02:33 AM »

Which TA33 do you have?  The reticle might make a difference.  I decided on the on TA33GH, which is the green horseshoe version.  To my eyes, green "pops" more, the outer horseshoe shape allows for fast acquisition, and the small center provides a tight aiming point.  The reticle also seemed to be much easier to use with the Bindon aiming concept when I compared ACOGs side by side at a local store.
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AlexTavor
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« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2017, 03:08:57 PM »

I would have both the red dot and magnification when needed. There is so much rail space on the Tavor that slapping on magnification behind your red dot is very quick and easy to get dialled in. IWI did a story a while ago on setting up optics properly.

https://www.iwi.us/IWI-Blog/December-2016/Is-Your-X95-Red-Dot-Mounted-Properly.aspx
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Rastoff
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2017, 03:32:20 PM »

Which TA33 do you have?  The reticle might make a difference.  I decided on the on TA33GH, which is the green horseshoe version.  To my eyes, green "pops" more, the outer horseshoe shape allows for fast acquisition, and the small center provides a tight aiming point.  The reticle also seemed to be much easier to use with the Bindon aiming concept when I compared ACOGs side by side at a local store.
I have the TA33R-8. It has the red chevron. I like it fine, but would prefer the green horseshoe like you have. Alas, I was being cheap and bought mine used which limited my choices. I think I'm going to save my pennies for a TA31-G-ACSS. I really like the ACSS reticle.
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757_Magnum
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2017, 04:58:33 PM »

I looked at the TA31 when I was ACOG shopping, too.  I had heard great things about it, but the short eye relief and 4X magnification took away too much from the close range capabilities vs the TA33.  I'll admit they this was only by looking through the scope by holding it at arm's length, but it was obvious when compared side by side.  At the time I had an Aimpoint T1 with the 3X magnifier and couldn't warm up to it.  With the magnifier the image wasn't as clear as the ACOGs and it felt clunky.  Without it shots were fast on man-sized targets, but target ID or precision shots beyond 25 yards suffered.

I still haven't had a chance to take the TA33 out running and gunning, but I hope that changes this summer.  All of my experience with it has been limited to a square range or moving around the house and aiming out windows (chamber flag inserted), but it seems to be as close to perfect as I can find so far.
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Rastoff
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2017, 06:34:59 PM »

Can't argue with that 757_Magnum. The TA33 is, in my opinion, the best compromise between scope and red dot. I can't seem to get the Binden aiming concept down, but it hasn't slowed me down any. I've won two man-on-man competitions with magnified optics. I have no trouble closing the off eye just as I bring the gun up.
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Rick53
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2017, 11:22:59 AM »

Can't argue with that 757_Magnum. The TA33 is, in my opinion, the best compromise between scope and red dot. I can't seem to get the Binden aiming concept down, but it hasn't slowed me down any. I've won two man-on-man competitions with magnified optics. I have no trouble closing the off eye just as I bring the gun up.
Why are you closing an eye ? BAd habit : Even with a variable scope you should learn both eyes open : Seriously anyone who trains would tell you that >
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