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Author Topic: Why do people hate on the X95 more than the Tavor SAR and the AUG?  (Read 3847 times)
AlexTavor
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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2017, 06:25:39 AM »

major54

That's a picture from google images to demonstrate the new generation grip on a clear example of a military weapon since it has a grenade launcher which wouldn't be available to the civilian market. I don't know the source and the circumstances behind the image.

IWI does have select fire tavors, It's most likely from a product demonstration for military customers demonstrating the newest Tavor available and a good indication of what we will see in the future as old rifles are replaced. On closer inspection the person holding the rifle does not appear to be from the IDF since I don't recognize the plate carrier, helmet, or uniform. I'm 10 years out of the loop so equipment could've changed but it looks like someone demonstrating a military product for potential military

customers. Tavors are exported and equip several nations armed forces.

Other then the rifle being a military product with the new x95 style grip there is nothing else I could confirm other then it being shot most likely in Israel due to S/R/A markings vs S/F/A.

Special forces could be a possibility, it's hard to see the shoulder patch and the uniform under the plate carrier. First thing I noticed zooming in was how clean everything was, all the equipment looks brand new, gloves, even the sticker on the ear pro is not worn. Either he is the luckiest soldier out there with all the fresh gear, or it's more then likely a IWI demonstration so fresh gear makes for nicer pictures.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to call anyone out. As IDF, you would know better about the semi vs. FA than anyone in this chat. I only wanted to get your feedback since it did have a select fire picture. I do appreciate your responding.

I make no apologies to anyone of my lifelong support of Israel and its forces that defend it. The last eight years were hard to watch as the previous administration didn't hold the traditional regard and support for Israel as has always been expected from the US. As the IDF has proven time and again, it will stand and fight the whole world if need be.

I wanted to make sure you got to respond though since the IDF use of semi has been much discussed. I was only in military service a couple of years and that was in a non-combat era and agree that the photo has to be a demo or as you say, the luckiest soldier in any army. It's always better though to hear it from one who serves or has served there than from someone like myself. Wink

I was still a boy but vividly recall following the Six Day War in 1967 in amazement as Israel decisively defeated all sides against her. I know this is a gun forum but you cannot separate it's legendary history from the weapons it uses and has used. Whether it is popular to say that is a reason why I choose Tavor and Galil matters not to me. It is simply the truth for me.

Yeah the rifle is 100% a military product but the person holding it is almost 100% not military, but more likely former military. Judging by the Agilite plate carrier and helmet good chance its a former IDF soldier since Agilite is ran by former IDF and US forces veterans.

The image is a very good indication of the the future of the military issue Tavor though. Sadly once in the hands of the IDF it will most likely be in a semi auto form. As far as debate on if the IDF uses select on AR platforms, there really is no debate since they don't.

The hasabara surrounding the 6 day war leaves me with mixed feelings. The North American version is much less flattering resulting in the sinking of the USS liberty, the death of many allied American sailors and almost dropping a nuclear bomb. I think we have a very different mindset in north america which makes it difficult to adjust and left me with lots more mixed feelings. This could also be a mix of adjusting to new surroundings and cultural shock but adjusting was very difficult for me. I think the Canadian Forces would've been a much better fit, and something Ive still been considering the past few years.
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THX1138
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« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2017, 10:50:20 AM »

He's an expert in the civilian fire-arms industry, with decades of experience, and obviously a brilliant manager (given the success of IWI US under his stewardship).

But that doesn't mean he knows about what the situation is with military customers in other countries, like the Israeli army.  

How would loctiting the safeties even work? Loctite is used for holding screws in place. Unless they completely disabled the function of the safety with it (still not sure how that would work), I don't see how they could have prevented it from going to the third position with just loctite. They'd have to install the semi-only selector.

I have lots of IDF reference photos with Tavors and X95s that don't even have the auto marking on the plastic frame. The trigger packs may be full auto in these for convenience, so the selectors must be the part that keeps things semi-auto.


I'm not going to defend the details of what he said. I only shared it mainly to re-enforce the fact that IDF doesn't use full auto on their Tavor/x95. He could very well be off with his terminology/details. I don't see why would he completely make it up though. The man works directly with IWI Israel and guys that were in the IDF that now work for IWI. I really didn't put a whole lot of thought into how exactly it would work, and certainly the info AlexTavor has posted sounds much better. Maybe it was only a here and there thing until they ironed out a more appropriate method. In order for that to work I would assume that the Israeli method of carry would be in play, which is full mag, empty chamber, selector (permanently) on semi mode. Just a theory.
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2017, 11:35:53 AM »

AlexTavor--I totally believe you about the ARs in the IDF not being full auto, but I would like to point out that in many pictures you can find online, it's clear that the receivers have auto sears installed in them. I imagine that the IDF simply installed semi selectors, leaving the auto sears in place?

It makes sense that you wouldn't want full auto in the middle of a city in order to reduce collateral damage. I've been to Israel and went to Jerusalem multiple times--I can imagine why they wouldn't want full auto there, especially in a place like the Old City. Our US forces used burst fire on the M16A4s and M4s in order to improve controllability and reduce excessive ammo loss, but still, in the end the verdict was that full auto was the way to go, and hence the M4A1. Different situations though, obviously.

Regarding milspec, I stand by what I said that milspec is an indication of reliable equipment. My point about it was mainly focused towards the AR aftermarket and random, flashy parts that are produced which have not been tested or approved. The reason this came up was because some were saying they couldn't understand why certain people just had to have military style rifle clones or equipment, because many of us around here have been very vocal about our distaste for the US civvie X95, and how we'd prefer something closer to what the IDF actually uses. Milspec means that a product has to meet a certain level of quality in general (the goal IS to keep soldiers alive, even if poor decisions are made from time to time), and also that there is an aesthetic appreciation for military weapons, as well as a historical, collectibility factor involved as well.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" -Stalin
AlexTavor
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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2017, 03:28:04 PM »

BellatorInvictus

They do have a full auto sear since the fire control pack is capable of select fire. The method of limiting the rifle to semi by changing the selector pin was also the theory I used on the first page when locktite on the safety story came up. I don't know if its actually how it's done, but I do know the safety was not glued in place with locktite since it can rotate freely. The only way I can think of is swapping the pin since that pins rotation is what limits the movement of the trigger transfer linkage. By pin I mean the barrel that is in between the safety selector and indicator, don't know what the actual name of the part is.
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2017, 05:15:51 PM »

AlexTavor--I know exactly what you're talking about. I used to have an X95 and completely disassembled it at one point out of curiosity. The safety selector is composed of those plastic lever pieces and the inner steel selector cylinder itself. The only way to make it reliably semi-auto would be to replace that cylinder part of the selector with the semi-only variant.

When you had an X95, was it set up like this? It seems that a lot of the IDF X95s are just marked S and R--like they were only ever intended to be semi-auto as built from the factory (in spite of having full auto trigger packs nonetheless).

I'm still curious about the IDF M4s and M16s with the obvious auto sears. It seems likely that they would just replace the auto safeties with semi-only versions in those as well.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" -Stalin
AlexTavor
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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2017, 06:16:16 PM »

Other then a field strip, we do not do complete disassemblies. Someone working in the armoury would have a better idea of the specifics. Externally the plastic body of the tavor has the markings of S/R. I think the reasoning behind using the select fire control pack is to have the possibility to upgrade to select fire for minimal cost. Replacing the pin would be much cheaper then replacing the whole fire control pack, plastic body and pin.

There could be more behind it since there's a slight variation between the selector lever positions between civi/idf Tavors. Its a very slight change and hard to notice without experiencing both and having your muscle memory say WTF when touching the civi version. The fire position is at a slightly different angle then my Canadian civi Tavors where fire is found at 12 o'clock, on my IDF issue it had fire at the 9-10 o'clock position. So with the variation in position there is also the possibility that the IDF would need only to replace the plastic body and leave everything else the same. The new plastic body would allow the lever travel further so the selector can travel beyond 10 o'clock and reach approx 2 o'clock position where the A would be on a select fire. I don't know if R being at 10 o'clock is for every single IDF tavor of every generation or if this varies by model and generation. The position could also just be cosmetic to make it more erogonomic to put the weapon on safe, which is much harder to activate when the lever is pointing at 12.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 06:26:50 PM by AlexTavor » Logged
Verfed
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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2017, 08:17:58 PM »

As far as debate on if the IDF uses select on AR platforms, there really is no debate since they don't.

What do you mean by AR platforms? Because if you mean M16s, I never saw an M16 in the IDF that wasn't select fire. I was issued one, everyone I saw was.

(and I don't think the USS Liberty was sunk)
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AlexTavor
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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2017, 10:07:37 PM »

As far as debate on if the IDF uses select on AR platforms, there really is no debate since they don't.

What do you mean by AR platforms? Because if you mean M16s, I never saw an M16 in the IDF that wasn't select fire. I was issued one, everyone I saw was.

(and I don't think the USS Liberty was sunk)

By AR(assault rifle) I mean the various platforms of the tavor assault rifle since we were talking about the x95/sar 21. I haven't really seen any m16 during my time but there were m4's lots in the airforce who worked on with the iron dome were issued m4
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BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2017, 09:38:20 AM »

AlexTavor--ah ok, that makes more sense. For us US folks, AR instantly means AR-15. So the IDF M16s and M4s, made by Colt in the USA, are full-auto select fire. It's only the IDF Tavors and X95s which leave that option out.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" -Stalin
AlexTavor
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2017, 10:35:44 PM »

I dont know much about the M16, I'm a  little to young for that. Most were converted into M4's what seems like a long time ago considering the condition they were in. Either way you are discouraged/prohibited from using FA, whether you will get in s*** for it is a different story. Following basic and depending on your personal skills and aptitudes there is advanced training for automatic gunner but that is now departing from assault rifles and moving into the Negev.

The AR in TAR is assault rifle. Even though in North America basically every gun enthusiast frowns on the usage of that "bad word" and will say sporting rifle. Assault rifles are FA blah blah blah, these are sporting rifles Cheesy
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 10:55:06 PM by AlexTavor » Logged
BellatorInvictus
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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2017, 01:14:55 AM »

Oh I unapologetically and quite proudly call them assault rifles. The U.S. constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear military weapons--not just "sporting" rifles. Gun enthusiasts being afraid to call an assault rifle--full auto or semi--what it is, is a huge victory for the freedom-hating anti-2nd amendment liberals.
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Throughout all history, there has been one class of people who have been ordinarily prohibited from bearing arms: slaves.

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" -Stalin
RadScorpius
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« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2017, 01:29:42 AM »

It's complete BS that we can't use the term assault rifles out of politically correct reasons.
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Chairforce26
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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2017, 12:29:06 PM »

Finally got out to shoot my X95 yesterday and it's awsome.  I do like its compactness and it doesn't seem to have much recoil at all.  Its not as accurate as an AR15 which was to be expected but decent enough.  Now I fired several shots in rapid succession, probably about 15 shots with 1/2 a second between them and was surprised how hot the thing got.  There was quite a bit of smoke rising from the barrel through the handguard obstructing the sight.  No wonder the Israelis don't shoot them full-auto.  The gun would either melt or you'd burn ypur hand off.
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Hit Factor
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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2017, 12:42:09 AM »

I believe that AR means automatic rifle in reference to the rifle designed by Eugene Stoner. Assault rifle, I have heard, is a relatively newer term coined by either the media or antigun coalitions.
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Razvedka
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« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2017, 01:04:00 AM »

You're thinking of 'assault weapon'.
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Hivedr.
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« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2017, 01:30:20 AM »

I believe that AR means automatic rifle in reference to the rifle designed by Eugene Stoner. Assault rifle, I have heard, is a relatively newer term coined by either the media or antigun coalitions.

No, AR stands for Armilite Rifle which is the company Eugene Stoner worked for when the rifle was designed. Ironically Armilite was a California based company and some the early rifles are even stamped HollyWood Ca. Buts that's when California was a Republican state and the arsenal for the U.S. Cold War efforts.  

Assault rifle has its roots in **** Germany. The term has been around long before the media went full tilt liberal.

"Historical knowledge is your friend and the enemy of the Liberal". Me
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:34:07 AM by Hivedr. » Logged
xpdchief
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« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2017, 08:15:25 AM »

I believe that AR means automatic rifle in reference to the rifle designed by Eugene Stoner. Assault rifle, I have heard, is a relatively newer term coined by either the media or antigun coalitions.

No, AR stands for Armilite Rifle which is the company Eugene Stoner worked for when the rifle was designed. Ironically Armilite was a California based company and some the early rifles are even stamped HollyWood Ca. Buts that's when California was a Republican state and the arsenal for the U.S. Cold War efforts.  

Assault rifle has its roots in **** Germany. The term has been around long before the media went full tilt liberal.

"Historical knowledge is your friend and the enemy of the Liberal". Me

Correct! 
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Respectfully submitted,
Brian
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« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2017, 08:17:07 AM »

I stand corrected, twice.
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TNC
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« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2017, 11:35:00 AM »

You also have to keep in mind that the gun community is very emotional (yep, emotional), and tend to hold on to some social media celebrity's words as bible, when NutnFancy, Yeager, InRange and a few others claimed X95 is bad, everyone all the sudden "tried to shoot the one their friend's uncle's brother's buddy owns and hated it". It takes a while for the gun community to appropriate something after some initial bad press, the early poor accuracy batch didn't help the issue.

Well, I disagree vehemently that as a gun owner I am emotional.  I am a calm, discerning, and analytical person who is a supreme authority on all matters concerning guns.  You on the other hand are a hand-wringing, whining, scurrilous dog who goes around trying to dictate your foolish opinions on others...especially when my opinions are obviously highly superior.  I use logic and not emotions to confirm that I am always right and you are wrong.  Those who question my observations are fools and don't even deserve my keyboard time...but...my magnanimous and philanthropic sense of awareness and pity on my fellow gun owners allows me to share my wealth of knowledge and insight.  I hate people like you who would question my choices and commentary.  I sob into my pillow at night because of people like you who would trample on my obviously superior choices in guns and components when it's very apparent that you know nothing.  Again...I am not emotional!...I'm not emotional!...I'm not!...I'm not!, damn it! Wink

But seriously, the differences between the SAR and X95 are so subtle that I don't think they're much different than how one AR15 can differ from another with a simple handguard, buttstock, or grip change.  These are more subtle visual and ergonomic tuning issues to better suit one person or situation a little better with a healthy dose of preference thrown in for good measure.  And of course, as already mentioned, there is that "newer is better" syndrome that may or may not actually bring some new ground breaking technology to the market.  There may be another factor at play between the SAR and X95.  Everyone knows that if you put an "X" in the title name of a product, that probably gains two or three marketing points right out of the box whether the product is superior or not. Grin
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