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Author Topic: Charging Handle return ?  (Read 3048 times)
reason
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« on: January 10, 2017, 02:13:09 PM »

Has anyone else noticed that the videos often show what appears to be no return pressure on the charging handle of the MDR? It almost looks like the operator has to push the handle forward:

http://youtu.be/10_T7wb4iaQ
 
See 23 seconds in for example.

Thoughts?
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readr1
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2017, 02:20:02 PM »

From what I saw in the video the bolt was locked to the rear on both instances where he pulled it back.
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readr1
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2017, 02:23:36 PM »

Also the charging handle can be used to lock the bolt to the rear like on an HK SMG.  It is a non reciprocating charging handle so if you lock the bolt to the rear it will just kind of flop around until you push it forward.
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reason
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2017, 02:27:17 PM »

On the ACR, the MP5 and 91-93 rifles, the non reciprocating handles do not have a lack of return pressure.  Why is the handle even able to return while the bolt is open?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 02:30:01 PM by reason » Logged
coldboremiracle
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2017, 03:25:59 PM »

In the video, at the 23 second mark, he is seen pushing the charging handles forward because the BCG is currently resting on the empty mag lockback. He is seen then releasing the bolt, thus going into battery and expending the last empty cartridge from the previous magazine. He could have just as easily left the charging handles to the rear where they were, and released the bolt with the bolt catch, and the handles would have snapped forward with the BCG.

The non reciprocating charging handles of the MDR can be pulled to the rear, and lifted slightly into a recess to "lock back", similar to HK's as mentioned above. They can they be pressed slightly down (releasing them from the recess) and thereby loading the rifle into battery. The empty magazine will also cause the BCG to lock back upon firing the last round, obviously since the charging handles are non reciprocating, they serve no function at this point. You can then change magazines, and release the BCG with the bolt catch, and then go back into firing.

Dont over analyze this particular video, the gun/guns shown in it are old, and have little in common with the MDR being produced downstairs.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 03:27:56 PM by coldboremiracle » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 07:16:35 PM »

Coldbore said:

Quote
In the video, at the 23 second mark, he is seen pushing the charging handles forward because the BCG is currently resting on the empty mag lockback.

Yes, I guess I am wondering why it functions that way. You are saying that the charging handle is capable of being held back along with the BCG and thats cool but I just never have seen a rifle seperate the two components in such a way that the spring tension on the locked BCG is seperated from the charging handle.

I do realize its a vid of a prototype and I appreaciate your response here.
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MikeSmith
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 09:44:55 PM »

Yes, I guess I am wondering why it functions that way. You are saying that the charging handle is capable of being held back along with the BCG and thats cool but I just never have seen a rifle seperate the two components in such a way that the spring tension on the locked BCG is seperated from the charging handle.

Isn't that what the AR does, or am I missing something?  Once the bolt is locked back the charging handle can be pushed forward and locked completely independent of the bolt...

Question for coldboremiracle--I think initially they talked about being able to lock the charging handle in the forward position as well.  Did that make it into the final version?
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HBeretta
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 12:15:39 AM »

On the ACR, the MP5 and 91-93 rifles, the non reciprocating handles do not have a lack of return pressure.  Why is the handle even able to return while the bolt is open?

ar15 charging handle does the same with the bolt open...flops about.  likewise, so does the RDB.  i noticed as well with the recent MDR vids...thought nothing of it.  would've liked to have seen the charging handle locked to the hold open position.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 12:18:12 AM by HBeretta » Logged
coldboremiracle
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 01:35:00 AM »

Yes, I guess I am wondering why it functions that way. You are saying that the charging handle is capable of being held back along with the BCG and thats cool but I just never have seen a rifle seperate the two components in such a way that the spring tension on the locked BCG is seperated from the charging handle.

Isn't that what the AR does, or am I missing something?  Once the bolt is locked back the charging handle can be pushed forward and locked completely independent of the bolt...

Question for coldboremiracle--I think initially they talked about being able to lock the charging handle in the forward position as well.  Did that make it into the final version?
Yes, there is a recess at the front of the charging handle channel, and a spring that holds it there when the charging handles are in the forward(resting) position.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 02:30:42 AM »

Re. Ar's charging handle. Yes, now that ya'll mention it, your right. I hate AR's precisely because of the rear charging design.(and no piston) I have never owned anything besides an AK that reciprocates until this yr.  Have been an HK nut since I was old enough to buy a firearm. I think HK made a ******ed move producing the 416, personaly. I would never own an AR unless there was nothing else.

All that said, I don't hold this against the MDR. I just don't understand the reason for a disconnected design. (I'm a philosopher Wink.... )
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 05:31:56 PM by reason » Logged
Whoops
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 03:17:58 AM »

So when the bolt is not locked back or in the fully forward position, can the charging g handle just slide back and forth? I don't believe the AR does that tbh but I'm no expert regarding the AR platform. Could coldboremiracle address this?
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 10:31:24 AM »

So when the bolt is not locked back or in the fully forward position, can the charging g handle just slide back and forth? I don't believe the AR does that tbh but I'm no expert regarding the AR platform. Could coldboremiracle address this?

On the AR, there is a spring loaded tab that holds it in its fully forward position as the bolt cycles, keeping it from moving when it shouldn't. Coldbore described a feature of the MDR which performs the same function when he wrote:

Quote
Yes, there is a recess at the front of the charging handle channel, and a spring that holds it there when the charging handles are in the forward(resting) position.

Put more simply, when the charging handle is fully forward, it doesn't move until you move it.
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coldboremiracle
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 11:26:42 AM »

So when the bolt is not locked back or in the fully forward position, can the charging g handle just slide back and forth? I don't believe the AR does that tbh but I'm no expert regarding the AR platform. Could coldboremiracle address this?
No, it is either retained in the forward position by the BCG spring, or if the bolt is back, it is retained by a spring and dentent in the front.
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Whoops
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 01:02:54 PM »

Perfect, thank you.
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reason
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 06:36:31 PM »

My analytic mind nagging me here. I hope that there isn't a bad reason for pushing the charging handle forward instead of letting it retain with the BCG. (Like problems with the charging handle smacking the receiver causing early failure) Notice how Nick Young pulls the charging handle back to meet the locked BCG and that did not cause the BCG to return into battery. Nick had to press the button release to send the rifle into battery. Why didn't the charging handle connect to the BCG when pulled in such a way that the BCG is unlocked and pushes the handle along with it to battery? Think of how a pistol with the slide held open with a slide catch is release when one pulls the slide back after mag change.

I realize the current iteration may be different but this video does beg these questions.

Does an AR fail to go into battery if one pulls the charging handle back after the bolt is held open and a full mag is loaded? Does one have to press the bolt release to send it to battery in this condition?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:40:58 PM by reason » Logged
reason
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 07:03:50 PM »

Well, this video does show the operator pulling the charging handle back to release the BCG and the last case:

https://www.facebook.com/nicholas.young.180/posts/1185504648165392

Edit: made link clickable
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 09:57:32 AM by reason » Logged
EWTHeckman
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 08:31:57 PM »

Notice how Nick Young pulls the charging handle back to meet the locked BCG and that did not cause the BCG to return into battery. Nick had to press the button release to send the rifle into battery. Why didn't the charging handle connect to the BCG when pulled in such a way that the BCG is unlocked and pushes the handle along with it to battery?

I'm not sure which video you're referring to. Is it possible that he had an empty mag in the rifle? That usually keeps the bolt (or slide) open on guns that have a last shot hold open feature.
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Whoops
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 09:16:12 PM »

My analytic mind nagging me here. I hope that there isn't a bad reason for pushing the charging handle forward instead of letting it retain with the BCG. (Like problems with the charging handle smacking the receiver causing early failure) Notice how Nick Young pulls the charging handle back to meet the locked BCG and that did not cause the BCG to return into battery. Nick had to press the button release to send the rifle into battery. Why didn't the charging handle connect to the BCG when pulled in such a way that the BCG is unlocked and pushes the handle along with it to battery? Think of how a pistol with the slide held open with a slide catch is release when one pulls the slide back after mag change.

I realize the current iteration may be different but this video does beg these questions.

Does an AR fail to go into battery if one pulls the charging handle back after the bolt is held open and a full mag is loaded? Does one have to press the bolt release to send it to battery in this condition?

As the poster above stated, I believe there was an empty mag in the rifle. This would make the charging handle do nothing to release the bolt (unless it managed to double as a redundant bolt release).
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reason
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 09:37:11 PM »

Whoops said:

Quote
As the poster above stated, I believe there was an empty mag in the rifle. This would make the charging handle do nothing to release the bolt (unless it managed to double as a redundant bolt release).

No, Nick Young had just put a full mag in.

In the second video (last 5 sec) the bearded operator uses the charging handle to eject the last case and then return to forward position. How it didn't stay open after ejecting the last round is unclear to me.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 09:55:00 PM by reason » Logged
coldboremiracle
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 12:37:49 AM »

As I mentioned, dont worry about it. The MDR in that video doesn't even exist anymore, analyzing it is a waste of time.
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