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Author Topic: From the 6.5 Grendel Bullpup Situation Room  (Read 82997 times)
SHORT-N-SASSY
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« on: September 21, 2012, 02:46:12 PM »

I recently Emailed Accuracy Systems, Inc., Palmetto State Armory and Black Hole Weaponry, all, highly respected members of the shooting industry. On behalf of Bullpup Enthusiasts who've urged, across the Net, "I'd love to see a 6.5 Grendel Bullpup," I did my best to make the case for the growing demand for a 6.5 Grendel-chambered Bullpup, in general, and for a 6.5 Grendel-chambered Steyr AUG or MSAR Stg-E4, in particular, citing their user-friendly, quick-change switch-barrel feature. The modularity incorporated within the overall design package encourages (read: screams) multi-caliber use. To that end, the most direct route: a 6.5 Grendel Conversion.

I'm happy to report that Andy Baker, Black Hole Weaponry, got back to me with an encouraging reply. In short: can do, but will need the existing Bullpup barrel to get all the critical dimensions. I've already gotten back to Andy thanking him for his prompt reply and posing other questions related to rifling twist and ballpark figure for the switch barrel.

And, in that another Bolt assembly is required for the conversion (MSAR a couple weeks ago said they have no 7.62x39mm Bolt assemblies), I Emailed RAT WORX. They presently offer their Hybrid Bolt assemblies, Left- and Right-hand versions, for the MSAR STG-556, MSAR STG-E4 and the Steyr AUG ($125.00). I asked if they can supply these Bolt assemblies for the 6.5 Grendel - 7.62x39mm family of cartridges. I hope they can. This combination represents the ticket we need to effect a happening!

Stay tuned. I think this  MAY  be the beginning of a new love affair. Borrowing from the 2012 Bullpup Challenge Press Release, "Let the Bullpups hunt!"
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 04:12:53 PM by SHORT-N-SASSY » Logged
maleante
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2012, 06:23:02 PM »

6.5 is the wrong course to take.

6.8 SPC is the "true 800m cartridge" and has infinitely more support behind it now, than the 6.5 grendal ever could in 100years time.

Magpul has 6.8 specific pmags. Federal is producing hundreds of millions of rds of 6.8 SPC annually. Tula confirmed importation of steel case 6.8 also.

An AUG stock with the magwell designed for Magpul's 6.8 magazines and a bolt/barrel is what should be looked at. Not the inferior and massively less supported 6.5.

In case you haven't seen them:





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maleante
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2012, 06:31:56 PM »

0.5 inch AR 550 Brinell Armor plate. Shot an 8.5″ 6.8mm UCIW and SSA Armor Piercing ammunition at 100m. Full penetration.

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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2012, 08:09:36 PM »

maleante,

I believe the following quotes are appropriate, here:

1, BullpupForum.com, "Cheap clamshells, . . .," August 16, 2010, by Sgt_P, "Negativity: The internet is full of naysayers.";

2, Definition for "naysayer": "Someone with an agressively negative attitude.";

3, Airborne Combat Engineer: 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC, revisited.

"In 'Special Weapons and Firearms' #42 (now on the shelves), the same author, Charlie Cutshaw, has another article about the 6.5 Grendel, in which he compares it to the 6.8 SPC. There's little argument that the 6.5 Grendel . . . has better long-range ballistics . . . 'One fact remains incontrovertible, and that is beyond 500 meters, the 6.5x38mm completely overshadows the 6.8x43mm.' The debate has been around which is better at within 400 meters (the range for which the 6.8 SPC was designed, as a CQB round to replace the 5.56x45mm standard issue round). Logic would seem to dictate a round with better terminal velocity and energy at longer ranges would also be better at shorter ranges, and a table [based on factory data for 20-inch barrels, not independent tests] in the aforementioned article supports this. The 6.8 SPC 115 grain leaves the muzzle at 2700 fps, and drops to 2417 at 100 meters, and 1903 at 300 meters. Energy is 1861 at the barrel, 1492 at 100 meters, and 925 at 300 meters. The 6.5 Grendel 123 grain leaves the muzzle at 2600 fps and drops to 2426 at 100 and 2098 at 300. Energy starts at 1846 and drops to 1607 at 100 and 1202 at 300. At longer ranges, it's still all Grendel, as expected. At 500 meters, the Grendel retains 1797 fps and 882 ft-lbs energy, compared to 1470 and 552 for the 6.8 SPC. The difference becomes more pronounced out to 1000 yards. As Cutshaw puts it: 'In point of fact, the 6.5 Grendel's ballistics is superior to those of the 6.8 SPC at any distance.'"

I respect your opinion. Respect the opinion of others on this Forum.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 08:50:43 PM by SHORT-N-SASSY » Logged
maleante
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2012, 11:10:53 PM »

What's disrespectful about a differing point of view?
If you don't want an open ended discussion on alternative caliber choices, there's probably a homogeneous grendal forum on the internet...
 
If you want caliber choices, you shouldn't limit the choice to only how the rd performs but to all aspects behind it.
With the 6.8 and 6.5 as ballistic equals today, focusing less on ammo performance and more on the extraneous issues is the relevant matter.

With Federal producing hundreds of millions of rds of 6.8 SPC a year, of varying bullet design, and a 6.8 caliber specific magpul magazine, (including the importation of cheap steel tula 6.8 ammo) the argument over 6.5 vs 6.8 has less to do with "mine is bigger than yours", but rather bullet choice, availability, supply, ongoing and future support, backing from the major manufacturers, and military contracts.



Quoting ballistic data from Charlie Cutshaw from back on "15 September 2004", doesn't bring much relevance to the issue at hand either...

Advances such as the 6.8x43 chamber, 5r rifling, 11.25 twist rates, and advanced bullet design makes any 8yr old article on the 6.8 obsolete. A good example is the 140gr VLD 6.8 ammo in that it negates any argument of 6.8 vs 6.5 that was previously held in 2004 when that article was written. With Federal's engineering, their new 6.8 ammo offerings will be equally as impressive and ballistically comparable 6.5 offerings. The 6.8 vs 6.5 was an argument 8 years ago, not today.



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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 02:00:06 AM »

maleante,

Thank you for your factual Reply, sans the negativity.  It's a pleasure.

The Silver State Armory 6.8 SPC 140-grain Berger VLD load represents the top loading in that cartridge, which operates at approx. 5,000 PSI higher than the SAAMI 6.5 Grendel loads. And, with an O.A.L. of 2.315" compared to the 6.5 Grendel's 2.260" O.A.L., it's one super load. And, I agree it looks good on paper.

Re your excellent Quick Target Unlimited Graph, the "2480 ft/s" Muzzle Velocity for the 123 Grain Lapua Scenar bullet is a little low. The Muzzle Velocity for that bullet, which has a Ballistic Coefficient of .547, is 2523 fps, from a 16-inch barrel. The resultant Muzzle Energy is 1739 ft-lbs. and the remaining Energy at 1,000 yards is 432 ft-lbs., about neck and neck with the SSA 6.8 SPC, with the excellent 140-grain Berger VLD bullet.

Let's compare the Silver State Armory 6.8 SPC 140-grain VLD (Ballistic Coefficient = .487), M.V. = 2401 fps (16-inch barrel), the 6.5 Grendel 130-grain Norma (Ballistic Coefficient = .590), M.V. = 2425 fps (16-inch barrel, with AR15-type Bolt) and the 6.5 Grendel 139 Lapua Scenar (Ballistic Coefficient = .615), M.V. = 2700 fps (22" barrel, CZ 527 Bolt Gun), at 500 yards and 1,000 yards.

. . . .  SSA 6.8 SPC 140 gr. .  6.5 Grendel 130 gr. . . . 6.5 Grendel 139 gr.

. . . . . . Velocity/Energy. . . . . Velocity/Energy. . . . . . . Velocity/Energy

0. . . . . . 2401/1791 . . . . . . . . 2425/1698 . . . . . . . . . . 2700/2250

500 . . . . 1624/819 . . . . . . . . . 1766/900 . . . . . . . . . . . 2020/1259

1000 . . . 1117/387 . . . . . . . . . 1269/465 . . . . . . . . . . . 1469/666

I think it's fair to state that the Silver State Armory 6.8 SPC 140-grain VLD Berger loading not only surpasses the standard 6.8mm SPC loading (110 grain bulet, with 983 fps/236 ft-lb remaining at 1,000 yards), but far surpasses the half-century old 223/5.56x45mm round (55 grain bullet, with 840 fps/86 ft-lb remaining at 1,000), while approaching the 6.5 Grendel performance. And, as shown in the far right column, when chambered in a Bolt Gun --- or with a special Big Bolt-special barrel extension equipped AR15-type --- the 6.5 Grendel's true performance level shines.

Perhaps, you can persuade Steyr to offer a companion 6.8 SPC Barrel and Bolt for their Steyr AUG. And, I'll continue to do my best with the 6.5 Grendel. More choices, the better. That's what this exercise is all about.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 02:49:34 AM by SHORT-N-SASSY » Logged
SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 02:53:23 AM »

In retrospect, some clarification is in order.

"and the 6.5 Grendel 139 Lapua Scenar (Ballistic Coefficient = .615), M.V. = 2700 fps (22" barrel, CZ 527 Bolt Gun)" SHOULD HAVE READ, "and the 6.5 Grendel 139-grain Lapua Scenar (Ballistic Coefficient = .615), M.V. = 2700 fps (22" barrel, CZ 527 Bolt Gun, handload, using Vihta Vuori N140)."

"And, as shown in the far right column, when chambered in a Bolt Gun," SHOULD HAVE READ, "And, as shown in the far right column, when chambered in a Bolt Gun, unencumbered by the typical lug loadings of the AR-15-type Guns."
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racky
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 06:17:23 PM »

Its pretty clear, that either cartridge is WAY better than the 5.56, and I'de be happy to see either one offered in a bullpup, but with the 6.5 out performing the 308 after 300yds in both F.P.S & M.V.   (AND STAYING WITHIN 60'000 psi)  I'm hoping the 6.5 will be available, Plus  It's good news that COLT is now offering AR's in 6.5 Grendel--Hopefully more will follow,  Logistically 6.5 Grendel has to catch-up with 6.8 SPC;  BUT there's Hornaday-Alexander Arms- POF USA-Wolf and now COLT offerings to the market , like Short-N-Sassy said  "The More Choices The Better"
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 02:42:41 PM »

UPDATE: I yesterday received an Email response from Andy, Black Hole Weaponry, advising, that given the critical inter-relationship between the Barrel, Bolt and Receiver of the Steyr AUG/MSAR STG-E4 design, interested parties should send him their existing MSAR STG-E4 7.62x39mm-chambered Barrel, Bolt and Receiver. Using the critical dimensions from each, for proper referencing, he'll coutour, port and chamber a new, properly head-spaced 6.5 Grendel Barrel. Upon the receipt of the new 6.5 Grendel-chambered Barrel (and return of the existing 7.62x39mm Barrel, Bolt and Receiver) the Customer then can purchase a C Procucts magazine for the 6.5 Grendel round and order a new adjustable Gas Regulator Housing-collapsible Handle Group Assembly from MSAR, without the Barrel, for a multi-purpose 21st-Century Bullpup!

Having not received an Email response from last week's Email-request to Rat Worx re their Hybrid Bolt Assembly for the 7.62x39mm, I this morning called and spoke, at length, with Aaron. I shared with him the latest from Black Hole Weaponry and the need for a Rat Worx Hybrid Bolt Assembly for the 7.62x39mm/6.5 Grendel family of cartridges. I was told they've received other requests for same, and will consider offering the Hybrid Bolt Assembly for the 7.62x39mm.

Keep tuned!
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racky
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 11:25:18 PM »

S-N-S, Allright!!, Looks like yer agitating is working, keep shaking the trees, who knows what will hit the ground, looking forward to the up dates. I left an e-mail with steyr, inquiring about the Next Generation AUG, that Thales AU & Steyr are collaborating on,
on a side note I googled (Clicked on the Images) next generation steyr Aug, and checked out every thing on the new EF88(austrialian AUG---F90, civilian version) and there was an interesting news article about the Electronic hand guard of the new EF88--F90 AUG, it has five buttons to activate/control all the guns electronic assesories (Torch-Laser-Range finder-Comms-etc) its been fielded tested at one of the Aussie universities, and so far the ergonomics & reaction time is superior to any thing on the international market, exciting stuff!!!!.
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sunny every day
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« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 01:27:55 PM »

6.5 is the wrong course to take.

6.8 SPC is the "true 800m cartridge" and has infinitely more support behind it now, than the 6.5 grendal ever could in 100years time.



Really ?

That doesn't sound right so I had to google it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/560571_.html&page=1

It actually seems many manufacturers are abandoning the 6.8, whereas the Grendel 6.5, now being SAMMI since late 2011, is flourishing.
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 07:56:02 PM »

UPDATE: I received a reply from Rat Worx, re my request for a Hybrid Bolt for the 6.5 Grendel, "Sorry, due to dimensional conflicts, Hybrids cannot work for the 7.62x39/6.5 Grendel head size," Chris.
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maleante
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 12:56:22 AM »

6.5 is the wrong course to take.

6.8 SPC is the "true 800m cartridge" and has infinitely more support behind it now, than the 6.5 grendal ever could in 100years time.



Really ?

That doesn't sound right so I had to google it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/560571_.html&page=1

It actually seems many manufacturers are abandoning the 6.8, whereas the Grendel 6.5, now being SAMMI since late 2011, is flourishing.

Thanks for the link that is coming up on being a year old.

When Federal starts pumping out HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of rounds of ammo in 6.5 grendal and when MAGPUL makes a dedicated magazine for the 6.5 grendal, get back to me.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 09:32:03 PM by maleante » Logged
PapaJoeTx
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 09:23:51 AM »

Dude, no need to be confrontational about ammo...
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MadMichigander1313
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2012, 12:37:35 AM »

UPDATE: I received a reply from Rat Worx, re my request for a Hybrid Bolt for the 6.5 Grendel, "Sorry, due to dimensional conflicts, Hybrids cannot work for the 7.62x39/6.5 Grendel head size," Chris.

   I just recently inquired Rat-Works about supplying conversion kits to the 7.62x39 (in Left Handed), and was informed that they were out of the critical parts to produce said items.  I am just hoping they would make the conversion kits.
   I would expect there would be a problem with the hybrid working with the 7.62x39 because the case is roughly 1mm larger in diameter than the 5.56x45.  Also keep in mind there is a 6.5_Grendel "clone" known as the .264 LBC-AR from Les Bahr.
   I am surprized that Black Hole Weaponry hasn't just taken the measurements and kept them on file..
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SHORT-N-SASSY
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2012, 04:29:09 PM »

MadMichigander1313,

Welcome to BullpupForum.com, and thanks for your update.

I'm reminded, anew, to the painfully slow evolution of firearms and ammunition. I recognize that we Bullpup Enthusiasts are graduates from the general firearms fraternity, which, by any measure, is a very conventional group. That said, it seems that we're stuck in a rut, while other technology of the world continues to evolve, around us, leaving us, behind, in its wake. I personally find it quite frustrating (read: demeaning).

Most would agree that the cartridge(s) makes the firearm. With that in mind, consider these chamberings in today's auto-loading Bullpups/conversions: the 49-years-old .223/5.56x45mm NATO (take away the NATO designation and you're left with a 1950's woodchuck cartridge); the 69-years-old 7.62x39mm Russian; the 110-years-old 9x19mm Luger. Only one manufacturer, MSAR, promises that their STG-E4 will be available in a 21st-Century-designed cartridge, the .300 AAC Blackout. Bullpup'ers, are we being taken for a ride? If so, we chose to get in and go along.

Forgive me for appearing forward, but it seems to me that an evolution/revolution in Bullpups is in order. We owe it to future Enthusiasts.

Site Ranking is #58!

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MadMichigander1313
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« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2012, 03:32:29 AM »

I have one small point that needs to be made.  The 6.5mm Grendel/.243_LBC-AR and 6.8mm SPC both share a common issue that will prevent their adoption by the military.  The fact that new rifles, squad automatic weapons, disintegrating belt links, etc need to be engineered and procured; which is prohibitively expensives, especially in like of our nation's current fiscal circumstances. 
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Scouse
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 01:06:27 PM »

Please excuse this old guys lack of expertise, but were would the Brit .280 come in this?  A 1949 bull pup rifle round?  Rejected for the 7.62X51 cartridge?
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BePrepared
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 01:38:16 AM »

i would pay the cost for a 6.8spc conversion. I would pass on the 6.5

That is just one guy and his money. I represent no thoughts but my own
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jsolo
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2013, 12:12:34 AM »

I would want a 6.5 grendel I have a AR in 6.5 its a awesome round.I feel sure that they will build the 6.5 as well as the 6.8 at some point If people want it they will find away to build it.I wish I could get the 300 blkout for my aug it seems like it would be easy to get it first.Will Alexander Arms build what we need in 6.5?
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