BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor SAR & X-95 => Topic started by: bossman on February 14, 2014, 05:14:40 PM



Title: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: bossman on February 14, 2014, 05:14:40 PM
This is the first forum that I have joined, so I'm new to this game, but not so to the shooting game.  I have fired around 200 rounds through my new Tavor with unacceptable accuracy.  I have been shooting at 100 yds. off a bench rest and have used factory ammo and hand loads.  With 5 shot groups, my best accuracy is 3" with grains from 55 to 75.  Has anyone out there developed a load that is accurate?  I need a place to start. 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: G-Tar21 on February 14, 2014, 06:10:36 PM
Well you got my curiosity. My Tavor will debut at the range tomorrow. I'll be following your thread. It would also be interesting to get any Tavor-Specific reloading feedback concerning accuracy.

Most of the videos I've seen praise the accuracy. One guy even was impressed with 300 yard shots. This is the first I've heard of issues.

Thanks for bringing it up.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Pjd832 on February 14, 2014, 06:40:17 PM
It's a COMBAT rifle ....not a long range bullseye bench rest rifle.....3"@ 100 yards is WELL within acceptable accuracy for its intended use.....like being mad after buying a cow you can't make bacon....


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: david8613 on February 14, 2014, 06:43:48 PM
Did you take out the spring to lighten the trigger.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: bossman on February 14, 2014, 06:46:35 PM
I did remove the trigger spring, David.  Thank you


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Paochow on February 14, 2014, 06:48:40 PM
What are you using for an optic?


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: bossman on February 14, 2014, 06:50:53 PM
I started with a Nikon 3x9 and now a UTC 4x12 compact.  Same results.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: G-Tar21 on February 14, 2014, 07:05:24 PM
It's a COMBAT rifle ....not a long range bullseye bench rest rifle.....3"@ 100 yards is WELL within acceptable accuracy for its intended use.....like being mad after buying a cow you can't make bacon....

I had a thought until you said bacon..... oh yea... anyway:
Combat rifle, true.Your right, 3-inch groups aint to shabby. But it was actually intended to be accurate long as well (according to what I've read/heard from IWI articles).  Now the X-95... close combat for sure. If accuracy was not important they would probably skip the 18-inch production.  Of course it would be nice to have the word "accuracy" clarified by writers. Yep, I'd be wantin' that cow to at least point me in the direction of some bacon.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: G-Tar21 on February 14, 2014, 07:10:33 PM
Hey Bossman, was Federal XM193 part of the lineup you used? I have a crap-load of that and a few boxes of green tips. 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: bossman on February 14, 2014, 07:27:12 PM
G-TAR21:  I have shot some Federal 55 gr FMJ and I have fired some Federal 62 gr green tips.  I'm looking at 4 and 5 inch groups with them.  When I say a 3" group, that was with hand loaded 69 and 75 grain boat tail match bullets.  With a 1 in 7 twist barrel, the heavier bullets should work better. in theory. 
I was hoping someone had an accurate recipe that I could start with because, so far, I'm not too happy with what I've been using.  I haven't given up yet, but thanks for your input.  I do love bacon.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Pjd832 on February 14, 2014, 08:34:49 PM
I haven't really spent much time actually working up a tavor specific load but with various combos I load for my m4s of 69-75-77 grain Sierra& hornady hpbt match and cfe223-blc2-335..... I am consistently able to get 1.75-2" groups standing with my forearm against a post ....standing unsupported 2-2.25 .....seated resting on a range bag 1.25-1.5"..... All shot with an acog m4cp @100-110 yards ..0-5mph winds ...temp was in the low 50s ...60-65% humidity....stock trigger and reset spring in place ....I'm used to heavier triggers and prefer over light vague ones


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Mg42 on February 14, 2014, 09:57:00 PM
That's strange I use PNC 55 grain 223 and I'm getting pretty good groups between 1.50 to 2. I'm using a Leopold patrol. Might want to look at the Mount see if it's loose on the top rail or if you're using rings see if their's 30 on the rail. I know there's a video out there that says certain types of ammo work better in the  Tavor then and others. It might be the videos done by nutnfancy and military channel with Mac.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Chuck S on February 15, 2014, 10:33:27 AM
3" at 100 yards is certainly acceptable combat accuracy.  This will put all shots in the 9" zero-points scoring circle at center of mass of an IDPA pistol target at 300 yards.  The rifle itself is capable of much tighter groups.  With the right ammo.  With the right shooter.

Your buddies all shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with their stock AR15s and cheap ammo.  Sure they do!  :)

-- Chuck


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: clance on February 15, 2014, 03:21:39 PM
I'm new to this forum as well as the bullpup community in general.  But a couple of days ago, after doing some research and having the opportunity to handle a Tavor.  I decided to "pull the trigger" and purchase a Tavor SAR Flattop B18.

I am a little befuddled with all this concern with MOA accuracy out of this rifle?  It is after all based on a combat weapon, more interested in reliability of function then the ability to shoot 1000 meters.  As the average infantry soldier engages their target within 300m.  The Tavor has no problem from all my readings both in reviews of this weapon and in this forum, in hitting a man size target at this distance.

While I believe with time the rifle's accuracy will improve with individuals like yourselves finding way to increase it.  There are inherent factor which limited it without fixes yet to be discovered. 

First off it's a Bullpup!  The average trigger pull should be expected to be heavy with creep.  This is due to the fact that there is distance between the trigger and the sear.  The relatively thin long metal lever and springs that connect the two, adds additional friction and flex I would believe unlike the trigger sear contact which most standard rifles/handgun/shoguns have.  So it will be more difficult and time consuming to fine tune the trigger pull, but not impossible.

Next is the fact that most gas piston rifles with few exception aren't inherently MOA accurate without great amount of work to compensate for the forces that the design puts on the action during function, whether the piston is mounted above or below the bolt carrier.  If you wish for a semi-auto rifle with accuracy, I would direct you toward a weapon system that uses direct impingement as little to no force is directed on the carrier except straight to the rear.  But this too has its' shortcomings that you have to deal with.

And of course there is the ammo issue which you'll have to go through to determine which is inherently more accurate for you individual weapon.

But understand that with this increase in accuracy there is generally a price paid in reliability.  Just ask any 1911 shooter who has a one that sounds like a maraca when they shake it.  Can't hit the inside of a barn outside of 50 ft. but can throw it into a mud hole, shake it off and it will fire all day long.  Try the same with a Gold Cup or any finely tuned 1911.  You might cut a silver dollar size hole at 50 yds. when it's cleaned and lubricated.  But after you drop it into a mud hole, it'll take you half a day to get the slide off being bound up!

In the end, IMO the Tavor accuracy is probably good enough for the purpose which it was original designed for.  If the firearm has any shortcomings then it's more then likely due to the expectation of the individual wanting it to be more then what it is.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Pjd832 on February 15, 2014, 03:37:14 PM
^^^^ this was my point exactly! Just worded far more eloquently than I did... ;D


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: David Sarnoff on February 15, 2014, 06:33:48 PM
Call me Goofey but I have not been able to get to the range yet with my two week old Tavor.  So, here is what I am doing.  Widner's has IMI military ammo in the 55, 62 and 77 grain versions.  I am going to order a box of each and see what my Israeli friend likes to eat. 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: bossman on February 15, 2014, 07:18:48 PM
Thanks for all the advice and good points.  However, I did a lot of reading about the Tavor and read several range tests before I actually coughed up the almost 2 grand for this beauty.  In all the accuracy tests that I read from the various magazines and you tube videos, a 2" to 2-1/2" group was not out of the ordinary with factory ammo.
I figured I could better that with hand loads like I have with my other dozen rifles in the past.  And yes, three of those rifles are ARs.  I may be expecting too much from this rifle, the test results are exaggerated, OR possibly I have a problem.  If IWI made a million of these, and there was one bad one, I would get it.  That's my luck.
Thanks again for your responses.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Slateman on February 15, 2014, 08:44:41 PM
Best I've gotten is 2.5-3 MOA


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Grevlin on February 15, 2014, 08:46:09 PM
Minute of bad guy.


...what I want.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: 82naut on February 16, 2014, 12:58:23 AM
I wonder how much it would help with removing the rubber spacer on the barrel under the front sight.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: VASCAR2 on February 16, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
I function tested my Tavor with 55 grain FMJ but have been doing most of my shooting with Sierra 69 SMK Factory 2nds.  I loaded them with 23 grains of TAC or 22 grain of N-135 with CCI 41 primers.

Off the bench at 125 yards both loads averaged 2.5 to 3 inch 5 shot groups using my EO Tech or iron sights.

I have a scope I'm going to put on my Tavor and see if the groups improve after the weather breaks. 

For the intended purpose the Tavor is accurate enough, If I need more accuracy I'll use my 20" 6.5 Grendel.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Slateman on February 17, 2014, 10:00:41 AM
I wonder how much it would help with removing the rubber spacer on the barrel under the front sight.

Marginal. It is what it is. Until someone makes a match grade barrel, you're not going to get much better than 2-3 MOA.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Mg42 on February 18, 2014, 10:46:33 PM
If you're using Eotech at100 yards you have no magnification you will not get a site picture and get definition shot without some kind of scope for magnification. And with a little patience for the new triggers for the Tavor you'll even get a better shot because of the trigger pull Will be about 4 pounds instead of the original  trigger weight is about 1, and even if you took the spring off you're still getting 8 1/2 pound trigger poll. So with a decent scope and a better trigger you probably be extremely happy.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Tombs on February 19, 2014, 12:07:28 AM
I'm seeing pretty good accuracy at 100m.

I'll let the picture speak for its self. I think the reason people are ending up with such large groups is either their optics or not being used to a trigger that heavy.

This was shot with a 18" tavor with a surefire brake and a TA31F, rested on my range bag.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TrickyMathMan on February 19, 2014, 05:11:06 PM
Not to be "that guy" but that picture can't speak for itself. A 3 shot group is statistically insignificant  Was that your best group of the day? Were any other of the groups similar in size but had a different POI? Lots and lots factors (standard deviation among the ammo, etc)


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Tombs on February 20, 2014, 05:57:04 AM
Had no problem turning out that accuracy once the erector in the TA31F had settled after sight in.

Firearms are more accurate than you are. I've discovered most things people claim 3moa with, I will manage 1. It's all about trigger control and consistent cheek placement behind the optic. Most the time people screw up the latter thinking that marketing hype defies physics.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on February 23, 2014, 12:50:10 PM
I have a Tavor IDF version and have discovered that while accuracy is initially very good, it tapers off quickly once the barrel starts to heat up.  Here are some pics of accuracy starting and ending of three (3) 30 round mags fired slowly over 45 minutes.  The targets were placed at 50 yards and I was shooting from a stable sitting shooting position.  The first pic is a cold bore group.  The second target is the last 6 rounds of the 3rd magazine. As you can see the group opens ups and goes high right.  I was shooting 55gr Tula (which cycles perfectly).  I have duplicated these result so this is not a onetime result or the ammo.
At the same time, my friend shooting Armscorp 55gr FMJ through left hand version Tavor 16" SAR Flattop did the same thing after a couple of magazines. 

SO...from my point, M4 may experience better accuracy over a sustained shooting period than a Tavor due to its pencil thin barrel.  Anyone else experience similar results? 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Check Six Training LLC on February 23, 2014, 09:24:21 PM
 I am definitely not trying to bust on you or your friend, but all of my shots, 0-60, over a 15 minute period
are touching as your two are at the 0700 position.  I was shooting from a prone position with a bipod at 25-50 yards.  I was also shooting 62 gr. ss-109.  I have owned, trained, and taught (for over 18 years)with many different firearms and if that is is best accuracy there is a big problem.   These do have a very different trigger pull when compared to an AR platform, if that is what you are used too.  As I  am sure you are aware, they also have a 1 in 7 twist barrel so the 55 grain bullet may not stabilize at 50 yards, especially once the barrel warms up.  I hope something I typed might help you figure this out.  Let us know.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on February 24, 2014, 06:11:52 PM
Tackelberry,

I am also versed in shooting as I have been formally trained and am also an instructor as well for 22 years.  The Tavor is not my first bullpup as have owned Steyr USR (which gave better groups even after mag dumps).  I have  owned, shot and trained with various M16A2/M4/AR15/XM177/MP5/M40A1/FP10..the list goes on...so lets remove all doubt that THIS shootier is the variable.

Now with that being said, 1/7 twist has no impact on this situation since the 4 round are in the black minus the flyer round.  The last 6 are not even touching the black is a clear indicator that the thin barrel is an issue on this particular Tavor IDF version and my friends 16" TAVOR flattop version.  Like I said I have duplicated these results. 

While a SS109 62gr would stabilize in a 1/7, a 55gr will also stabilize just fine in 1/7 so that is a moot point. The manual even calls for M193 (55gr FMJ) as well as SS109. 

So I am curious if yours is getting tight groups with 60 rounds in 15 min., have you gone up to 90+ rounds.  I am thinking it is a fouling issue or thin barrel issue.  Most review out there put all their eggs in the basket for accuracy based on cold bore accuracy.  A POI shift after barrel heat up that much even at 300m would miss the target.  M16A2/M4 seems like it can out-perform this weapon at 300~500m with iron sights.  I know the Marine Corps is the only branch that trains to 500m standards, but those are the standards I stuck with when comparing all combat type weapons.

What do you think?  Could it be a fouling issue or a thin barrel issue?  I wish there were heavier barrel option out there, but I guess we will have to wait for that. 

Anyone else have any similar experience with drifting groups?


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Check Six Training LLC on February 24, 2014, 08:29:48 PM
Ronni rider,
 This is my first bull pup rifle.  Having used the AR platform for most of my career  I never saw the need to buy a gun that would inherently be known to have a crappy trigger pull.  That being said, I have always respected Israeli training, soldiers, and weapons they produce.  I still cannot believe people think a class 3 Uzi is not accurate because it is an open bolt gun. 
  I cannot speak about any potential fouling issue as I have not noticed any in my gun.  You may be on to something with the light barrel.  As for mag dumps, I cannot give you any feedback, because I don't do them.
  As far as your credentials, I was not questioning them.  I was only trying to help out based on the limited experience I have with this particular weapon system.
  Basically, my Tavor is equipped with extras that I did not have mounted on any other gun.  My first purchase for my Tavor will be one of the "more acceptable" trigger groups when they are released.  Good luck, and please let us know when you figure it out.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: ed9339 on February 24, 2014, 08:59:21 PM
Compared to the M16, M16A1 the Tavor performs in par with any M16/AR15 I've ever carried as a service rifles it may lag slightly against the Match grade HB but then we are not comparing apples with apples.  All and all IWI has a solid tool and I have no issue or issue with conscience with evangelizing its merits.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on February 24, 2014, 09:00:15 PM
Tackelberry,

Forums are always difficult to gauge and send relays without hearing the tone of the person writing the reply.  I didn't mean to sound like I was making this a d&$k measuring contest, just trying to convey that we share a similar background and experience. 
I am a big fan of Uzis since I own 5 of them.  Having shot micro, mini and full Uzis I was impressed with tier ability.  Close bolt FA is insane.  I would love to know how the tavor handles in the 9mm. 

As far as this issue I will foul up the barrel then leave it dirty and go shoot another day to see if it gives a tight group or high and right.  I find this both interesting and disappointing to see my rifle shoot this way.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Check Six Training LLC on February 24, 2014, 10:11:07 PM
Definitely uncharacteristic of an Israeli weapon system.  Let us know how your test turns out.  Good luck.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Scouse on February 24, 2014, 10:44:13 PM
My problem is this, my Son asked me to pick out an overall weapon, in 5.56.

I own a Steyr AUG  Some twenty years old, with the 1.5 fixed optic. The AUG is a good rifle, great magazines.  But it is an old design, never been keen on M16 magazines though.

What would be the best magazines to buy? To complement a Tavor 16"

And what optic?  Something quick, both eyes open?

I just want to spread the blame?


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: David Sarnoff on February 24, 2014, 10:48:55 PM
Quick and both eyes open . . . I love my AimPoint PRO.  A great package for about $415 retail.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Scouse on February 24, 2014, 10:55:08 PM
Thank you David, researching now.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on February 24, 2014, 10:56:09 PM
I have the Mepro 21 with a triangle reticle, but I prefer the bullseye reticle.  My IDF version came with the triangle when I ordered it.  It is 1.0x optic.  No batteries and bright to the ambient conditions.  Even at night due to the tritium element.  Well with the money.  Not crazy about the glare off of the fron t lens.  My steyr was a little slow on the mag change but I can say the Tavor with practice will be as fast or faster as a M4.  I have used various mags in my tavor and I am partial to the CAA mags only because it is the same type that came with the rifle.  I have never been a fan of vertical foregrips and I think that was one thing that led me to selling my steyr other than rally. Wanting a tavor.  Back to mag question, CAA offers some good mags but they will not be 922r compliant if you worry about those things since they are made in Israel.   They do look good in that rifle though.  I have never really care about what mag I put in my rifle until it didn't work.  


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Scouse on February 24, 2014, 11:03:40 PM
Never used the wee fore grip on my AUG, except for disassembly!

Standing, I hold the front of the knuckle protector. With left hand, tuck elbows out of harms way.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Check Six Training LLC on February 25, 2014, 08:50:59 AM
For a red dot sight my preference is an Aimpoint.  I have the ml-2 on mine.  Any of the better quality sights, Mepro, Eotech, Aimpoint, Trijicon will all do a good job.  Again, it is just preference .
  For mags, I agree with RoniRider, I like the mags that are shipped with the Tavor.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Mefisto53 on February 25, 2014, 09:16:05 PM
My problem is this, my Son asked me to pick out an overall weapon, in 5.56.

I own a Steyr AUG  Some twenty years old, with the 1.5 fixed optic. The AUG is a good rifle, great magazines.  But it is an old design, never been keen on M16 magazines though.

What would be the best magazines to buy? To complement a Tavor 16"

And what optic?  Something quick, both eyes open?

I just want to spread the blame?

Consider Magpul's Emags as an alternative. They work fine with the Tavor and are easier to find and probably less expensive than the IWI.

Regarding the optic/red dot, I started with an EoTech xps-2. I know that there are plenty of happy owners of Tavors using EoTechs, I wasn't one of them. I ordered an M-21 and I'm very happy with it. You may have to do a trial and error and see what you like, however, this is not a light rifle. If you add a heavy optic, once you also add the mounting base you could easily go past an extra pound and a half.

I hope you enjoy your Tavor!


Sent from my iPad Air using Tapatalk


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 02, 2014, 03:57:37 PM
UPDATE***
OK, so I have shot two different days to give you an update on my POI shift.  In hindsight, I wish I would have shot again before installing a new muzzle brake, I think the results will still give us some insight to the heat/accuracy issue I am experiencing.  Day I, my impacts we high due to a new muzzle brake installed ( adjusted zeroed for the next day).  The Cold bore shots are circled.  After 3 (30rd) mags, you can see the spread still goes high and right (the uncircled holes).  Perhaps not so much, due to the harmonics of the barrel being altered by the heavy muzzle brake. 

The second target is the next day of shooting with a cold dirty bore.  since I adjusted the zero the first day with the barrel a little warm, I guess the zero came back down and left more when cold. 

The last target is the Tavor w/Mepro21 VS. M4 iron sights at 50yds. Cool barrel. 

ALL THESE SHOTS WERE FROM THE SITTING POSITION. (WISH MY RANGE HAD BENCHES).


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Slateman on March 02, 2014, 09:34:30 PM
What kind of ammo?


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 02, 2014, 11:00:40 PM
 55gr FMJ armscorp.  I also used 55 gr tula before with same results. 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: bluonyx on March 03, 2014, 12:45:01 AM
Went to the range earlier this week and had good results with Fiocchi ammo.

It was Fiocchi 223A 55gr FMJBT. Overall I'm pretty happy with my placements since I've only been shooting for a year, so you could say I'm still a newb.

First shots were at 50 yrds to sight in the red dot.

(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t196/bluonyx/Firearms/Targets/20140226_113628_zps6b276ed7.jpg)

These next ones were at 100 yrds.

(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t196/bluonyx/Firearms/Targets/20140226_113653_zps6fa33269.jpg)


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Slateman on March 03, 2014, 09:06:09 AM
55gr FMJ armscorp.  I also used 55 gr tula before with same results. 

That is some pretty meh ammo. Probably has more to do with your groups than the barrel being overheated.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 03, 2014, 09:32:36 AM
At this point, Point of Impact (POI) would not change with one brand of ammo without something else affecting it such as fouling or barrel heat. 

All these shots were in the sitting position so one would need to take that into consideration when looking at the group size.  The groups shot are intended to show that my particular IDF version Tavor shoots high and right after the barrel heats up (approx 3 mags).  I further believe that fouling is not an issue since I shot a dirty cold bore group.  To me it seems that the IDF version with just two mounting points has a greater potential of a shift in the POI from barrel heat than the Flattop versions for the following reason:
- Flattop rail is longer and has more points to stabilize it
- Flattop also act as a heatsink
- IDF version barrel directly mounts to the Mepro21 and transfer a lot of heat to the scope base.

I will shoot some heaver 69gr Nosler reloads just to remove all doubt that ammo is a factor with the POI shift.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: clance on March 03, 2014, 10:29:31 AM
I wonder if cryogenic treatment of the barrel would resolve a lot of the accuracy issues caused by the barrel warping during heating and cooling?

It is my understanding that the molecules of the metal aren't uniform in their structure but can be more or less dense randomly throughout the barrel due to the forging process. 

What the cryogenic process does as I understand it, is to condense the molecules forcing uniformity via attaining near absolute zero centigrade.  Then slowly reheating barrel allowing for a uniform expansion of the molecules, reducing causes for barrel warpage and uniforming the harmonics.

I would be interested in hearing from someone that has had this process done on another rifle and what the results were, and did it actually improve the overall accuracy of the weapon or had no effects?

One of the things that I would really like to see is Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) do is start offering for the civilian market heavier barrels at variable lengths, offering the option for stainless, and while I'm aware that they're talking about offering different calibers.  Actually start putting these options on the market...


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Gunoil on March 03, 2014, 12:02:35 PM
Good points Clance.Here is a good read on the different benefits of cryro barrel treatment.

https://nfa.ca/resource-items/cryogenic-treatment-rifle-barrels-0


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: clance on March 03, 2014, 01:44:50 PM
Good points Clance.Here is a good read on the different benefits of cryro barrel treatment.

https://nfa.ca/resource-items/cryogenic-treatment-rifle-barrels-0


Interesting read Gunoil, thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 03, 2014, 03:58:38 PM
Cryogenic treating was a big thing about 15-20 years ago but it has never been proven to be hugely effective.  It is like taking vitamins, it can't hurt, but you don't really know if it will help.   

Armalite doesn't seem to think cryo treatment is worth it: http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes%5CTech%20Note%20103%20CRYOGENIC%20TREATING%20120206%20Rev%200%20Final.pdf


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: AZ2000 on March 03, 2014, 08:46:02 PM
Could be the temp difference between the barrel (steel) and the receiver (aluminum). Some will probably say, the AR is and can be very accurate, true but the barrel in an AR is held to the receiver by a torqued barrel nut.  The Tavor is mated by a pin. The aluminum will expand at an approximate 2 to 1 ratio, depending on the types of steel and aluminum. May be why the cold bore shots are more accurate? (just my  :2cents)


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 03, 2014, 09:36:58 PM
AZ2000,  Excellent hypothesis!  I never thought about the pin locking the barrel to the receiver.  At least with a barrel nut on an AR there would be symmetrical heat transfer and pressure.  On the Tavor the pin cut out on the barrel might not allow an even heat transfer and cause the shift of impacts. 

The only reason I got wrapped around the axel with this is because for a combat rifle to shift an 1" @ 50yrds would yield a 6MOA off taget @ 300yrds....thats a big difference from aiming point when you are trying to hit a target shooting back at you. 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 03, 2014, 10:39:07 PM
So is it a 6 moa rifle? It would surprise me if so after watching Hickok45. He puts the borrowed Tavor through its paces and it seems to hold 0. He has some small metal targets set out at a pretty good distance which he easily hits. He even hits a rolling watermelon which is not easy. Hickok45 does not want to like the Tavor but cant help himself after its fine performance.

I have a flat top 18 inch model and have not had any issues at all. I have only taken it out three times so my experience is limited.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 03, 2014, 11:15:32 PM
TDECK, scroll up and read my previous postings to see what I was referring to.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 03, 2014, 11:30:01 PM
RoniRIder there seems to be different ideas on what is happening concerning the POI s***. Can you bottom line it for us? I am considering another Tavor purchase but will hold off until I know whats going on with the POI shift.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 03, 2014, 11:33:46 PM
Bottom line regarding my IDF version is that the group goes high and right after barrel heat up.  Seems everyone else is just fine with their Flattop Tavor tight groups.  I guess they can shoot 2" groups all day no matter how hot the barrel gets, but mine can't.  

Also I shouldn't have stated 6 MOA.  What I meant was that the accuracy would be of by 6" @ 300yrds from cold bore accuracy. 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 03, 2014, 11:53:02 PM
Ok, then that would explain the Hickok45 video since he is shooting a flat top.  It is impressive in case you havent seen it.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Gear Head on March 04, 2014, 01:20:05 AM
At this point, Point of Impact (POI) would not change with one brand of ammo without something else affecting it such as fouling or barrel heat. 

All these shots were in the sitting position so one would need to take that into consideration when looking at the group size.  The groups shot are intended to show that my particular IDF version Tavor shoots high and right after the barrel heats up (approx 3 mags).  I further believe that fouling is not an issue since I shot a dirty cold bore group.  To me it seems that the IDF version with just two mounting points has a greater potential of a shift in the POI from barrel heat than the Flattop versions for the following reason:
- Flattop rail is longer and has more points to stabilize it
- Flattop also act as a heatsink
- IDF version barrel directly mounts to the Mepro21 and transfer a lot of heat to the scope base.

I will shoot some heaver 69gr Nosler reloads just to remove all doubt that ammo is a factor with the POI shift.


The flat top rail mounts to the gas block as does the IDF sight base. The rail may appear to be mounted more securely to the gun stock but that isn't really the case. The front of the rail just sits in a notch and the rear of it is just nestled in a pocket. Neither really add holding force. And if it did, it would probably just add to the POI shift when different forces act on the stock like changing shooting positions or using a sling.

Take a look at all the things that are attached to the barrel for a moment. Starting at the receiver working forward, the first thing that can apply pressure on it is the gas piston from the bolt carrier itself. It is in the gas block which is of course pinned to the barrel.

Then the gas block of course. While it doesn't apply pressure to the barrel in any particular direction by itself, it provides mounting for several things that can. Like the optics.

Both the IDF sight and flat top rail bolt to the top of the gas block. Any pressure applied to them transfers directly to your thin barrel. So if you try to do a "thumb over" grip on a flat top, guess what, your hand grip is pushing against the barrel indirectly.

The front sling socket also is attached through the gas block. Run tension on your sling, you have tension on your barrel. The sling mount also holds the charging handle assembly on in the rear.

Again, if you are holding the top of the gun somehow or have something attached to the factory side rail, that can all apply pressure to the barrel indirectly through the gas block. But that isn't the only place. The front hand guard screws pass through the forearm, stock body and upper part where the charging handle slots are. They thread into the "U" block that is wrapped over the top of the barrel and has a bushing inside of it that sorta pinches the barrel. That is why those mounting screws get hot when you shoot.

We aren't done though. The charging handle itself also rides along the top of the barrel and applies pressure to a ferrule they have pinned on the barrel. It is what gives it the leverage feel when you first start pulling back on it.

Similar to how an AK is, they used the barrel as a convenient place to mount several things to make it work.. It is the structure that keeps the front end of the gun rigid. If you have ever removed your forearm and charging handle assembly, you can easily feel how flimsy the front of the stock body is when nothing is attached to the barrel.



Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 04, 2014, 01:39:56 AM
Gear Head, does this mean the Tavor platform is prone to POI shifts? I have had good luck with mine so far. I was just questioning how someone like Hickok45 could put on such an impressive display with a borrowed Tavor if the Tavor has such a problem with POI shifts. I think Hickok45 is at least 70 years of age and he just chews up targets of all sizes and distances with his borrowed Tavor. He even hits a target several times that is rolling down a hill. This and my own experience left me questioning the POI shift issue. The one thing I can say is I dont "ammo dump" because it is a complete waste of ammo in my opinion. I cant hit jack while ammo dumping so I dont see the point of this unless it is a function check. Could it be that this is what is causing the POI shift because of excessive heat from "ammo dumping"? 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Gear Head on March 04, 2014, 01:58:23 AM
There is many factors that can affect POI. My personal gun doesn't shoot nearly as well as some of the groups I've seen posted here. I've shot it from rests, benches, supported etc. I've been competition rifle shooting for going on 30 years now too so I should have an idea of how to shoot.

I am just stating the facts. And every one of those factors can be a variable. And with any variable, your impact can change. That is why the most accurate guns have free floated barrels. The purpose is to eliminate as many variables as possible. The way the barrel attaches can be another factor as well as stated above. It is a slip fit with just a cam locking it in place. An AR gets torqued down with a nut against a flat surface, a DT rifle is a slip fit but then gets tightened down with several bolts too. Both are or can be very accurate. A difference in just a few tenths of thousandths can make a difference in accuracy in this spot. So I can easily see that there could be a difference in performance between guns. Manufacturing tolerances will play a major role in this.

The thinner barrel profile combined with the things attached to it can easily cause a change with heat as well.

Those are just factors involved with the gun design itself. Ammunition plays a key role in accuracy as well. Just because one rifle likes ammo "X", doesn't mean another gun of the same model will. That is true with any rifle. Barrel harmonics and ammunition factors are an entirely different subject that would take an whole thread by itself.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Scouse on March 04, 2014, 07:47:42 AM
I wonder what the designers of the Tavor wanted the Rifle for? A compact design, that could be deployed from vehicles, that would not pack up in dirty, dusty places.

The bottom line in the accuracy dept.?  What accuracy requirement was acceptable? I can not see a 6" shift at 100m/200m being acceptable, especially considering the environment, temp. it would be deployed in.

Have the accuracy parameters ever been published? 

 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Check Six Training LLC on March 04, 2014, 09:23:38 AM
 RoniRider, have you called Tavor USA?  It appears none of us, me included, have been able to help you figure this out.  I would guess Tavor USA has a factory certified technician that can help you resolve the issue.  I wish I had the knowledge to trouble shoot your problem, but from all of the other replies, yours seems to be an isolated case.  The only ammunition I have run through my Tavor is 62 gr. ss-109 and 62 gr. Federal bonded soft-point.  Both rounds allow me to shoot 1 moa groups at 100 yards.  Of course, I am shooting from the prone position with a bi-pod and had not done any mag dumps, so my variables won't help.
  Several years ago I did some testing to measure barrel temps and found that an AR-15 with a 16" barrel m4 configuration increased by 7 degrees in temp. with each round that was shot.  Depending on how rapidly the 90 rounds were shot the barrel temps could easily be 630 degrees.  If something is wrong with the barrel attachment I can imagine there could be significant shifts in p.o.i..  
  Let us know what happens.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 04, 2014, 10:02:15 AM
Well this has been very helpful. It sounds like buying another Tavor could be a crap shoot in the accuracy/POI shift department. I should not worry about it so much but these are expensive rifles with crappy triggers which means another $350.00. It blows my mind that the Israeli military would deploy a rifle with such a huge flaw assuming that the POI shift plagues the Tavor platform which may not be the case.

I was considering a FN SCAR but I understand they can have the same POI shift issues. Again, another very expensive rifle with more issues than I care for at its price point. I have high expectations from top of the line gun makers who charge top dollar.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: 007Bond on March 04, 2014, 10:23:55 AM
Hey all! This is my first post here but I've been lurking around for awhile.
I was gonna bring up the same principle. How can a nation's defense force, Israel at that, rely on a firearm that has accuracy issues. To me this doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying the OP is wrong, but maybe something is genuinely wrong with his Tavor. Bit I'm just really wondering if this is a true issue with all or most Tavors. I've been very interested in this Tavor and want one but not if this is a genuine issue.


Title: Re:
Post by: waveslayer on March 04, 2014, 10:27:59 AM
My Tavor has shot a MOA group consistently and at times 1.5 groups,  shooting 5 shots. No modifications were performed other then adding an ACOG to it.  I have been using PMC, Federal Eagle and reloads with it and it runs like an AK!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 04, 2014, 10:41:21 AM
waveslayer, I dont think the grouping is so much in question as is the POI shift. The POI shift may not be inherent in the Tavor but who knows at this point. I think we need multiple test from from multiple rifles to confirm this either way.  I will test my Tavor as soon as possible. RonRider is on the right track. Either he has a defective rifle or his POI shift is inherent in the platform. If it is inherent in the platform then we need to know. I almost bought a second Tavor but will hold off until I know for sure.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: clance on March 04, 2014, 11:08:41 AM
Could someone explain to me why someone would believe that a combat rifle, designed primarily for a urban warfare is expecting MOA performance past 300m?   :anyone?


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: 007Bond on March 04, 2014, 11:34:42 AM
Yeah I talked to IWI US about this issue and he hasn't ever heard of it. They said optimal performance for the Tavor is 100 yds.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: AZ2000 on March 04, 2014, 12:27:01 PM
Here are the results from my 100 yd testing after mounting a Burris 6x24 50 XTR scope on the Tavor. It had approximately 700 rounds thru the weapon. Prior to doing this I ran 20 rounds through the chamber after doing a complete barrel cleaning to set the barrel and allowed the barrel to cool to ambient temperature.  All rounds were fired from a solid bench in about 75 degree weather, no wind, rifle was supported with long distance shooting support rest and bags to reduce shooter error. The test was ran using 77 grain Sierra Match King bullets. Initial testing was with Black Hills factory new and personal loads.  Test was done with personal loads, accuracy was just a bit better.

Picture one is zeroing the Tavor @ 100 yds to set scope and base line. Black dot target is 13/16" in diameter.  Gun was allowed to cool for an hour to ambient temperature.

(http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab178/Dirt1/549146e8-6b02-4f05-83b9-39da3bffb3f5.jpg) (http://s861.photobucket.com/user/Dirt1/media/549146e8-6b02-4f05-83b9-39da3bffb3f5.jpg.html)

Second group, after gun was at ambient temp, was 14 rounds fired at approximately 15 second intervals at 100 yds  holding the same POA.

(http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab178/Dirt1/7163bacd-0546-4c93-87f6-d7d40791eefa.jpg) (http://s861.photobucket.com/user/Dirt1/media/7163bacd-0546-4c93-87f6-d7d40791eefa.jpg.html)

Tests indicate to me the only variable was the barrel, receiver temperature and as Clance stated the piston system impact. After test, scope and mounting hardware were re-checked to torque specs to ensure nothing on the scope system had loosened up.  Still 1 MOA or 3" at 300 yds, is good enough for me. 

I have two Tavors and accept them as they are, a combat short range system that is reliable and made for close quarter encounters. If 5.56 accuracy is needed I go to my 18" SASS system, or .308 precision.

Hope this helps.

Just my  :2cents



 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 04, 2014, 01:17:59 PM
Clance,  no one here is suggesting that a combat rifle should have MOA accuracy.  The topic we are focusing on the the drifting of point of impact. 

AZ2000, you tests seems to show that the groups are actually shifting high left then go counter-clockwise as the barrel heats up.  Am I correct by looking at you second target?

So the 1st group was center, then second about 1.5-2" at the 11 o'clock position?  Didn't realize it took only three round to make it shift so quickly,


Title: Re:
Post by: waveslayer on March 04, 2014, 01:48:28 PM
I have shot multiple strings and have done a high rate of fire with no noticeable shift.
What is most likely happening are the rounds are heating up in the chamber, thus increasing the pressure... thus causing a rise in POI.  That is a common issue in many rifles. Try shooting the rounds without letting them sit too long in the chamber causing them to heat up.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 04, 2014, 06:57:39 PM
It sure would be nice to have IWI drop in and give their opinion.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Check Six Training LLC on March 04, 2014, 07:42:06 PM
RoniRider , have you tried to reach out to I.W.I USA to get any help from them?

Everyone else, keep in mind, RoniRider 's gun is not the typical flat top that most of us have.  Whether that makes a difference, I do not know.  I know that my gun is stock with an Aimpoint (4 moa) red dot and the gun is great.  My groups touch at 50 yards and  consistently  shoot 1 moa at 100 with no p.o.i. Shift.  This gun has been in production and more importantly used by the Israeli military for over 12 years.  As one of the finest militaries in the world I have a real hard time believing they would field a gun that has any negative issues. 
I believe, unless there is a flaw with RoniRider 's gun, the p.o.i. shift is due to the gun being heated up and then the rounds getting hot while they sit in chamber waiting to be fired.  Everyone that has ever been through any formal sniper training knows that for every 20 degree rise in temp. the bullet will impact approx. 1" higher at 100 yards.  If RoniRider heated up the barrel he also heated up the chamber.  I could see that it would be very easy for a chamber that is 500-600 degrees, after several mag dumps, to heat the cartridge any where up an extra 100 degrees while it waited to be fired under controlled, slow fire, circumstances.  An extra 100 degrees would equal a 5" p.o.i. shift. 
 
 


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: AZ2000 on March 04, 2014, 09:27:51 PM
RoniRider, the answer to your question is yes. :)


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 04, 2014, 10:50:00 PM
Everyone thanks for your input on this issue.  I think this is an instance that many have never looked for in this combat rifles accuracy.  I, like many, would expect a group to open up as the barrel over heats, but for accuracy to go high and right as in my Tavor, or in a counter-clockwise pattern as AZ2000's Tavor is something that appears to be a phenomenon uniques to the Tavor.  I am NOT saying it is a bad  chose of weapons, but one must know the limitations and behavior of a weapon should they choose to rely on it as their go-to, SHTF, or 3-gun weapon.   Israelis designed and chose this rifle to be "capable of moving from open field conflicts to close-quarter engagements and from daylight to nighttime capabilities".  This rifle would fit that criteria.  I would say that us in the West do like the ability to engage 0-300m..,or more, with predictable or estimable accuracy even with a hot barrel.  

To answer some questions, I have not contacted IWI yet since I would like to test this rifle some more.  Also I never expected this rifle to shoot MOA.  I don't think this is a bad rifle if your targets get closer the more you shoot.  At this stage of my experience with THIS rifle, for any sustained rate of fire with intermediate ranges involved, I would choose an AUG or M4/SPR over the Tavor.  I have been wanting this rifle for a year and sold my Steyr to get it...a decision I am not sure if I regret at this point.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 04, 2014, 11:26:27 PM
I just watched the Tavor Hickok45 videos again and I just dont get it. That dam thing is almost laser like. Some of the targets are very small and at a good distance yet he picks them off one by one. He even does a partial ammo dump which I did not catch the first time. He got the barrel plenty hot. Can someone explain how this is possible with the POI shift issue? Sorry to keep coming back to this but it just doesnt make sense.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on March 05, 2014, 12:21:45 AM
please lay a ruler over that target.  I'm guestimating from the 13/16ths dot size that the overall grouping is about 4 inches...over that number of rounds at 100 yds probably within normal given the heavy trigger.  I didn't read the whole thread...was the Tavor locked down like in a shooting rest/vise?  If not its probably normal and not much bigger than my own groups.  I hope to do better when the new trigger pacs hit the market.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on March 05, 2014, 12:36:04 AM
FWIW, the Tavor is no tack driver.  I have an 18" POF for that, sub moa if I do my part with match ammo.  The Tavor reminds me more of a mini-14 I had back in the 80s....it shot a pattern..not a group as it heated up:-).  None of my semi auto rifles hold cold bore poi. I have thousands $$ into an M1-A including cryo treating the barrel..it still shifts around as it warms up.  I think its due to having a mechanical connection touching the barrel for gas blocks etc and all semi auto gas operated rifles likely have this problem in varying degrees. A free floated barrel is needed. Any bolt gun owners out there have any input?  One of these years I want a bolt gun that holds cold bore poi.  It is disconcerting to see that poi move around though.  Someone mentioned Hickok45...I don't think any of his targets are smaller than that grouping...plastic bottles and steel poppers.

rich


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: RoniRider on March 05, 2014, 12:37:13 AM
TDECK,  I don't see how you think the Hickok45 video shows the accuracy.  Go back and look at how big the targets are that he is shooting.  6-8" plates.  The turkeys look like actual size.  The far red plate has to be about 8" in comparison to the 55gal drum in front of it.  Look at the size of the water melon then look at the size of the red plate.  

We are talking about shifting of point of impact from cold bore zero which matters @300m.  His backyard range is at max 100-150yrds.  And you will notice he does also miss some targets.  The shooter and viewers are listening for rounds hitting target. Not for measuring accuracy or POI shifts.  For CQB practical purposes, sure.  But intermediate battlefield accuracy...nope.

Botton line is why does a $700 M4 out shoot a $2,000 Tavor in a real life round count scenario?    


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: TDECK on March 05, 2014, 12:49:49 AM
Thanks for putting that to rest. Now I get it.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on March 05, 2014, 12:51:44 AM
d


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: 007Bond on March 05, 2014, 12:08:35 PM
For those of you running these tests... thank you. I'm glad I'm informed about this before buying a Tavor.

I think y'all who are doing the tests and find less than favorable results should call IWI US about this and see what they have to say about it.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on March 05, 2014, 01:21:28 PM
ok...but I don't think I've seen anything in this thread thats unfavorable...The gun isn't designed as a tack driver..3 moa is about the norm...some AR15s are inherently more accurate.  Or from an Israeli pov,  the spec is MOP.... Minute Of Palestinian...sorry sorry sick political humor:-)

i'll try to post some of my groups...looking about the same as others


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on March 05, 2014, 01:37:27 PM
Tavor @ 100yrds, UTG 1-4 scope at 4x, off bench...forgot the ammo type but its a meh group size ...but still acceptable given the trigger and pencil barrel.  IE why I don't think the other groups shown in the thread are abnormal given my own result.  I wish I could get the really tight groups someone posted though.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on March 07, 2014, 07:10:44 PM
This thread got me motivated.  I went to the range today to test my Tavor a bit further.  My Tavor has approx 1100 rounds thru it now.  It hasn't been cleaned for about 600 rounds and the last time I fired it was over a month ago.  Ambient temp was about 40deg F today.  All shots were bench rested, using a UTG 1-4x set @ 4x.

Three types of ammo were used: Privi Partisan .223 75gr match, Black Hills 5.56 77 gr OTM and Federal Tactical 55gr softpoint.

I set up 4 identical targets at 100 yards.  First was cold bore Privi, next Black hills, next Federal, then the 4th was Privi again with the barrel now warm to hot after 15 rounds.  

The intent was to establish cold bore POI, POI diff vs ammo and POI shift vs warm barrel with same ammo.

pic t1 is the 75 gr privi cold bore..and the best group I have ever shot with my Tavor! Very happy with this grouping and my $135 UTG scope that has been mounted and dismounted many times with my aimpoint H1 micro since last I fired the gun .

pic t2 is the black hills 77 gr 5.56

pic t3 is the Federal 55gr soft point.

pic t4 is the privi shots 16-20 warm barrel

The grouping opened up a bit from cold bore to warm and a colder shooter:-), but the POI for the Privi seems centered about the same.  I'll post some further pics of more rounds on target in next posting.



Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on March 07, 2014, 07:17:33 PM
pic t5 the gun and setup with ammo

pic t6 is another 5 rnds of privi in the 4th target for a total of ten

pic t7 is another 5 rnds using the aimpoint h1

pic t8 (I'll cross copy to ksg forum) is 5 rnds of remington slugger out of my ksg at 100yds




Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: richied on November 12, 2019, 09:28:05 PM
Well itís only been 5 years lol.  I still have my Tavor SAR and finally decided it needed some upgrades.  One was the Geisselle trigger pack.  I adjusted the first stage up in pull a bit.  I suspected I could get sub MOA groups now... and did! This with an acog.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Zemliak on December 14, 2019, 07:22:38 AM
My SAR never been as good in accuracy as my AR's. It is known issue for any rifle with interchangeable barrels and pistons, too many moving parts inside. Same issue with Beretta ARX100 and it repeats Tavor accuracy. I keep both for shooting fun and not for sniping, good trigger could improve it.


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: thehun on December 14, 2019, 10:08:07 AM
So far all my Tavors, regardless of caliber...return the exact same accuracy with ball ammo as my ARs, SCARs and ARX100...

Where it changes is match ammo...but I do not shot match out of .mil based semi autos...


Title: Re: Tavor Accuracy
Post by: Rastoff on December 15, 2019, 01:53:25 AM
Excellent shooting richied. Just for fun I measured your group with a higher precision. Here's the result.

(https://i.imgur.com/HvY8oHR.jpg)