BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => K&M Arms M17S 5.56 and .308 => Topic started by: srfnken on September 08, 2013, 10:34:24 PM



Title: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 08, 2013, 10:34:24 PM
I now have a functioning billet aluminum lower for the M17s.  This Lower will fit the Bushmaster upper and the K&M upper that will be introduced soon.  I will offer complete rifles at the beginning of the year.
This lower uses standard AR trigger and hammer group with some slight modifications.  Stock AR springs and stock AR pistol grip.  It will come standard with the TangoDown grip as pictured but in black.  It will also come anodized type III class 2.  The best two things about this lower is that it is lighter than the OEM and it has a much improved trigger.  Pull weight is 3.5LB.  That is the best out of the box trigger ever for a bullpup.  With my new patten pending trigger linkage you will be amazed.  You thought my other triggers are great, this one is something to talk about.  It will also come with my standard skeleton trigger and Magpul enhanced butt-pad.
It will be at the bullpup shoot for its first showing.  Come and take a look.
There is no price set on this or the rifle as of yet.  You can visit the new website www.kmarms.com (http://www.kmarms.com) for following the introduction and to get on the waiting list for the new rifle.  The site is not really up and running yet but will be soon.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Snapperhead363 on September 08, 2013, 10:42:13 PM
 :o


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: maleante on September 08, 2013, 11:57:06 PM
You have my attention.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 08, 2013, 11:58:35 PM
Good, because it is only going to get more exciting in the next few weeks.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 09, 2013, 03:36:07 AM
Good, because it is only going to get more exciting in the next few weeks.

Ken,

A 3.5 lb [mechanical] trigger on a Bullpup is a gem. Good work.

Now, for all of this to "get more exciting" for me, the K&M upper that will be introduced, soon, will also be available in 6.5mm Grendel chambering and offer a left-side ejection version, for those of us who need/choose to shoot a Bullpup, from the left shoulder.

When that becomes a reality, you will "have my [utmost] attention."


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 09, 2013, 08:57:11 AM
After the rifle is up and going a left hand version will be available.  It will also be available in 300 black out with the change of the barrel or swapped out complete upper.  I will still offer the custom shop for those individuals that want something different so I would say that your request is something that is not out of the question.  I need to get the main stream up and going first to recoup my cost for this development.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: gunhand on September 09, 2013, 11:00:05 AM
One word...AWESOME!!!!!! ;D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 09, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
In view of Ken's encouraging update --- and cognizant of the challenges involved --- I defer to the wisdom of Bullpup Forum Member, johnny9, etched in his standard bottom line, "get r done"! http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=319.0 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=319.0)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 09, 2013, 01:30:01 PM
I am spending full time on this development and for the last 2 months been working the design.  I am super happy with the results so far.  Going to get the upper cut this week.  And it will have a semi free float barrel.  No more front cap.  And to let you know how much material is removed from the lower, it started out as a 8lb 6.2oz block.  Final weight still to be determined as it is out to get the magwell broached this week.  Yes it will be a true drop free mag in a M17s.  Like it should be.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Snapperhead363 on September 09, 2013, 05:53:01 PM
I know this isn't the time for this but I can't help myself! I want one in .308!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 09, 2013, 05:55:10 PM
yes I know so do I that will come next.  that will probably be mid next year


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Snapperhead363 on September 09, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
.308 would be sweet! :--*If you get serial#1 then I want #2!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 09, 2013, 06:05:47 PM
If I say ok that will start a fire storm, so when I am ready I will let you know to get you on the list


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on September 09, 2013, 10:09:09 PM
SRFNKEN, a 6.5 grendel & a 308 bullpup????, DROOL-DROOL-DROOL,
So is your design an UP-GRADED version of the M-17????, if so and its made from billet aluminum, How is the heat, while firing it??


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 09, 2013, 10:18:03 PM
The heat will never transfer to the lower it will all be taken care of with the ventilation in the upper that I'm going to be doing.  and yes this is a total upgrade from the original M17s


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Cullen_Doherty on September 10, 2013, 12:33:44 AM
Here is the obligatory "Will you make an 80% lower?" post  ;D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 10, 2013, 12:38:18 AM
I can, but this would not be as easy as an AR80% lower to make operational.  There is more to it than just using a drill press.  You would then also have to buy all the components to go into it.  But what ever the market demands is what I will end up building.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Cullen_Doherty on September 10, 2013, 12:43:05 AM
I just realized this... if I had waited 5 months I could have just saved my money and bought a brand new one.  :-\


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: headhunter7 on September 10, 2013, 09:16:34 AM
Make SURE the sight rail is aluminum and not plastic ,I always ahted that about the M17 s


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Sgt_P on September 10, 2013, 09:33:41 AM
I just realized this... if I had waited 5 months I could have just saved my money and bought a brand new one.  :-\

What I've discovered about guns, but especially Bullpups, is you can't just have one!

How cool would having an original and a new one side-by-side at the range!!

 8)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: gunhand on September 10, 2013, 11:05:30 AM
 DAMMIT Ken!! Now I have to have TWO, one in 5.56 and of couse one in .308!!!! And I agree with Sgt. P, it will be very cool to have an original and a new model together at the range!!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Gear Head on September 11, 2013, 10:26:15 PM
Interested in a 300BLK version! Hope you do suppressor testing with subs.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 11, 2013, 10:28:47 PM
Yes I will.  I am going on 9 months now waiting for my paperwork to come back on my .308 can.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Gear Head on September 11, 2013, 11:34:11 PM
Yes I will.  I am going on 9 months now waiting for my paperwork to come back on my .308 can.

The wait can be excruciating I know. If you have one at the shoot we can slap my can on there.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 11, 2013, 11:37:52 PM
Sorry, I will not be ready for it yet.  I wish I was.  Been working around the clock to make it to the show with something to bring


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Gear Head on September 12, 2013, 12:34:54 AM
I know the feeling. Looking forward to seeing it.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Paletiger on September 12, 2013, 12:46:01 AM
That's awesome Ken! I'm the guy who graded you the MSAR. Still have it? Glad to see the retro M17 is being upgraded. Charles


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: dawg180 on September 12, 2013, 04:32:55 PM
That is a work of art my friend, I can't wait to see that in person at the shoot.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Cullen_Doherty on September 12, 2013, 10:38:42 PM
Wonder what kind of barrel he'll be using on the upper? The manufacturer I mean?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 12, 2013, 10:46:39 PM
That is still a secret and will probably not be disclosed.  Some things you have to keep close to you.  But they will have my famous crown on them.  Not just a hack and install barrel.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: azguns on September 13, 2013, 03:18:24 PM
why would you not want to say who's  barrel you are going to use??    I know at least for me, knowing the make and specs of a barrel play a BIG part of  how much Ill pay or if Ill even buy the gun.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 15, 2013, 11:15:28 PM
Is there any clue about a price point at this time???


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 15, 2013, 11:17:39 PM
No price point yet for just the lower.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 15, 2013, 11:28:48 PM
Here is a hot off the press not even deburred picture of the upper.  And there are still a couple more things that need to be done to it.
Ken


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Snapperhead363 on September 15, 2013, 11:32:32 PM
Very nice! ;D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 15, 2013, 11:45:24 PM
AWESOME!!!! Is that a "regular" M17S upper or is that your upper???


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 15, 2013, 11:55:24 PM
That is my upper.  It is a redesign of the original.  Its lighter and better.  Nothing on this rifle will use any of the BM parts.  They will all be mine or standard AR components.  I have had extrusions for about 4 months now and finally to the point to start cutting on them.  I have enough extrusions for 130 complete rifles.  There will be a first production run of 100 rifles that will have special letters signed by me as the first production run from K&M ARMS.  I will personally build each rifle from this production run.  After that I may have too big of a backlog had have to hire a crew to keep up with production.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 15, 2013, 11:59:13 PM
So the your complete rifle will be available first? Is there any price point for the whole rifle? How do I get on a waiting list?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 16, 2013, 12:09:36 AM
Yes the complete rifle will be available first in .223.  Price point is $1800 for the complete rifle.  I am going to open the can of worms here but have just started the list last week.  I am not taking deposits and delivery it to begin around the first of the year or sooner.  I can not promise anything for a time line as that is why I am not taking deposits.  The way it will work is that when your number comes up if you do not want it there will be plenty of more people behind you that will gladly take it.
How to get on the list.  Send me an email to ken.kmarms@gmail.com and ask to be added to the list.  You will need to include name, phone number, and forum username.  I will send you the next available serial number.  I will then contact you when it is ready and you will have 2 weeks to send payment and the FFL to transfer it to.  I will also have the list at bullpup shoot for people who do not see this thread.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 16, 2013, 08:46:04 PM
Ken I'm a huge fan of your previous improvements to the M17s. I've had you work on my upper (you even fixed some sloppy mods the previous owner did without it affecting my cost). I have already put in for one of the lots. I have a few questions: 1. Will be able to chose a color before it ships to us or will it only ship in black? 2. Will the mag release be the same or have you improved that also/ relocated it to a more convenient place? 3. I know you said it will be chambered in .223 but will it still handle the higher pressure of the 5.56x45mm round? 4. Will there be the option to add side rails and or a brass deflector (for people who fire from both shoulders)?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Flattop2000 on September 16, 2013, 08:58:24 PM
What about threaded holes on the lower. So you can attach a small picatinny rail for a Accu-Shot Monopod on the rear of the stock? This looks like itís going to be a precision rifle would be nice to have


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 16, 2013, 09:03:52 PM
Oh and 6. What will the charging handle look like?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: skippy45 on September 16, 2013, 09:55:47 PM
So are you going to offer a complete lower that works with the stock upper? If so how much?
Can't wait for a 308 one


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PZC on September 16, 2013, 10:10:49 PM
Ken, I'm so excited about your new lower and upper! I also have a question about the magazine release on your upgraded lower.  Of all bullpups I own (RFB, MSAR, bullpupped SKS, IMI Tavor, and M17s), I like Tavor better, just because the way the magazine release was designed. I wonder if you ever considered including Tavor mag release in your new lower.

Paul


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 12:30:27 AM
Ken I'm a huge fan of your previous improvements to the M17s. I've had you work on my upper (you even fixed some sloppy mods the previous owner did without it affecting my cost). I have already put in for one of the lots. I have a few questions: 1. Will be able to chose a color before it ships to us or will it only ship in black? 2. Will the mag release be the same or have you improved that also/ relocated it to a more convenient place? 3. I know you said it will be chambered in .223 but will it still handle the higher pressure of the 5.56x45mm round? 4. Will there be the option to add side rails and or a brass deflector (for people who fire from both shoulders)?
1. I am planning on only doing black.  It will be anodized Type III class 2
2. Mag release will use the standard AR components.  I will be adding one to the left side like the BM one.  I have been trying to come up with a different design but this one is tried and true with the AR platform.  One thing to note is that I am having the magwell broached so it is to mill spec and will always drop free unlike the BM one.
3. It will be chambered for 5.56mm so you can use both rounds, sorry for not clarifying.  The markings on the magwell say 5.56mm/.223
4. It will come standard with a brass deflector and am toying with the idea of side rails.  Its about a 50/50 split with mods that I do right now.  None of mine that I own have side rails.  But I know that some people like them.  That is up in the air for now.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 12:33:54 AM
What about threaded holes on the lower. So you can attach a small picatinny rail for a Accu-Shot Monopod on the rear of the stock? This looks like itís going to be a precision rifle would be nice to have
There is no room on the bottom of the lower to add a rail that I can see at this point.
There are QD sling mounts at the butt of the rifle.  One on each side for a single point sling.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 12:36:24 AM
Oh and 6. What will the charging handle look like?
It will be a side charging system.  Got that all worked out today.  It will be simple not to fancy.  No more top charging handle. 


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 12:40:44 AM
So are you going to offer a complete lower that works with the stock upper? If so how much?
Can't wait for a 308 one
Yes I will offer a complete lower that will work on your BM upper.  They are interchangeable.  I did it that way because there have been many requests for hammer parts and to remove the grip.  This setup does it all.  It will also help with the gen 1 lowers that have the separation problems.  There is no price point for just the lower and no delivery time frame.  I want to build and sell 100 rifles first and get production rolling so I can get the .308 version going to give the RFB a run for their money.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 12:46:01 AM
Ken, I'm so excited about your new lower and upper! I also have a question about the magazine release on your upgraded lower.  Of all bullpups I own (RFB, MSAR, bullpupped SKS, IMI Tavor, and M17s), I like Tavor better, just because the way the magazine release was designed. I wonder if you ever considered including Tavor mag release in your new lower.

Paul

I will have to take mine apart and look at how they do it and if I can do something similar.  I was trying to stay with standard AR parts because that would give the owner other options to customize if they wanted or to replace, because there are tons of aftermarket accessories that you can add to this lower because it uses standard AR parts.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 17, 2013, 01:28:27 AM
Is it possible to have mods such as adding side rails (in the event you decide not to include them as standard) and different color paint done before shipping (for a higher price of course)? Also what kind of muzzle device will they ship with?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 17, 2013, 04:09:45 AM
. . . I want to build and sell 100 rifles first and get production rolling so I can get the .308 version going to give the RFB a run for their money. . . .

Ken,

You really know how to get a guy's interest; i.e., one who envisions a "proper" 6.5mm Grendel-chambered K&M Arms "Big Bolt" M17S.

As demonstrated in my recent letters to  Freedom Group, Inc. Chairman & C.E.O., George Kollitides (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4m0afd9gncm6gqnij9sfn21bt5&topic=1060.40 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4m0afd9gncm6gqnij9sfn21bt5&topic=1060.40)) (see bottom of page) and Steyr Arms, Inc. C.E.O., Scott O'Brien (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2475.0 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2475.0)) (see bottom of page), an AR-10-size Bolt-Barrel Extension, in a lighter, shorter AR-15-length action, is the ideal combo for a +P+ 6.5mm Grendel. It's akin to chambering the half-inch longer 6.5mm Creedmoor, in an AR-15!

I dare state that what we're witnessing, here, is the much-needed Innovation In The Gun Industry. Good Luck!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 09:26:37 AM
Is it possible to have mods such as adding side rails (in the event you decide not to include them as standard) and different color paint done before shipping (for a higher price of course)? Also what kind of muzzle device will they ship with?
I should know soon if they will ship with side rails.  I am leaning towards it.  I am trying to work a price with YHM for the phantom.  I really like the look of this one.  And I am going to be doing them standard anodize black as a production gun.  I am not wanting to do the custom orders for production run rifles.  It will just bog things down and will be too confusing.  It all depends how this all takes off.  If it is slow then the custom orders will be the way to go.  If it is a fire storm then they all need to be the same.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 09:30:28 AM
. . . I want to build and sell 100 rifles first and get production rolling so I can get the .308 version going to give the RFB a run for their money. . . .

Ken,

You really know how to get a guy's interest; i.e., one who envisions a "proper" 6.5mm Grendel-chambered K&M Arms "Big Bolt" M17S.

As demonstrated in my recent letters to  Freedom Group, Inc. Chairman & C.E.O., George Kollitides (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4m0afd9gncm6gqnij9sfn21bt5&topic=1060.40 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4m0afd9gncm6gqnij9sfn21bt5&topic=1060.40)) (see bottom of page) and Steyr Arms, Inc. C.E.O., Scott O'Brien (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2475.0 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2475.0)) (see bottom of page), an AR-10-size Bolt-Barrel Extension, in a lighter, shorter AR-15-length action, is the ideal combo for a +P+ 6.5mm Grendel. It's akin to chambering the half-inch longer 6.5mm Creedmoor, in an AR-15!

I dare state that what we're witnessing, here, is the much-needed Innovation In The Gun Industry. Good Luck!

Yes, Yes Yes the .300 black out will be next then the 6.5mm Grendel then the .308 win.  I do not want to get too far ahead of my self but have had some good interest in a 6.5mm Grendel version.  My buddy Tony is hot to get his hands on one of them.  So he will be pushing me to get this one done.  The good thing about the balckout and 6.5mm Grendel is there are just slight changes to be made.  The .308 is a total redesign.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 17, 2013, 12:41:47 PM
That's cool I just wanted to know my options. I figured I'd try to get them done before it shipped to me to aviod shipping it back but either way I'm f*Äking excited about this. I might be selling my old one to ensure I have the funds for it. Minus the optics and forward grip.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 12:53:52 PM
Yea, but how cool would it be to have both.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 17, 2013, 12:59:25 PM
Very cool, however I'm moving out on my own (as in with out roommates) and to a less communist state and figure I might not have the extra spending cash I'm used to. Plus I was planning on just transfering the accessories over to the gen 3 M17s(or what ever you plan on calling your version of it when it gets popular).


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 17, 2013, 10:29:46 PM
Well I decided to add 4" rails on each side.  If people don't want the added weight they can remove them.  It's better to have them and not use them than to not have them and want them.  Long productive day.  Pic up tomorrow of it all together I hope.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Gear Head on September 17, 2013, 10:53:04 PM
Well I decided to add 4" rails on each side.  If people don't want the added weight they can remove them.  It's better to have them and not use them than to not have them and want them.  Long productive day.  Pic up tomorrow of it all together I hope.
that's my theory as well. Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: skippy45 on September 17, 2013, 11:26:58 PM
wow.. Now I really have to save my pennies... Keep the AR-15 style mag release and bolt release. That is one of the reasons I came back to the m-17. Can't wait to see the finished product..


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on September 18, 2013, 01:41:26 AM
SRFNKEN, I"m TOTALLY BLOWN-AWAY!!!!, A 6.5 Grendel Bullpup????, if I'm Dreaming--Dont wake me up!!!, I want on that list!!!!!, Although I BET that S-N-S is way ahead of me!!!!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 18, 2013, 03:05:15 AM
@ken awesome. Honestly if adding rails to a rifle makes it too heavy for someone maybe they need to hit the gym instead of worrying about how much their weapon weighs.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 18, 2013, 08:54:49 AM
Yea, but one of the big things reviewed is weight and every rail counts. ;D  I actually need to make the top rail a bit shorter as it is too close to the face.  We will see if I have enought time in the next 2 days to make a new rail and upper.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 18, 2013, 10:57:42 AM
I'm just thinking about the variety of shooting stances and body types. For a taller person the rail might be too close to the face, but for a smaller person it might be perfect. As far as stances go, in the old school shooting stance(see attached photo) the shooter turns their body at an angle from the target and the weapon goes across their body making a longer stock ideal for a more comfortable cheek wield. This stance was good if you only had one target or didn't have to worry about transitioning between them quickly and didn't wear body armor. I, out of occupational necessity and because of the environment I am most likely to employ a weapon in, utilize a different shooting stance called the isosceles shooting stance (see next post's photo. In the isosceles shooting stance, the shooter squares his or her shoulders to the target with the weapon pointed straight out. This stance gives the shooter the best protection against upper torso shots, the best ability to engage multiple targets rapidly, and allows for better recoil control. When using this stance I have the stock on my M-4 and AR-15 fully collapsed to aviod struggling to reach the proper eye relief or cheek wield. If someone finds the rail too close isn't it easier to place the optic further forward on the rail than for a shorter or shooter who uses a different shooting stance to add a rail on top to allow the rail to meet their needs? Unless the rail is grinding on your cheek when you shoot, then that's just annoying. Not telling you what to do, just throwing it out there.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 18, 2013, 10:59:00 AM
The isosceles shooting stance


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 18, 2013, 11:01:51 AM
My nose hits the rail so it is only 1" too long.  It's still going to be plenty long.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 18, 2013, 01:03:10 PM
Cool beans. Again I am just trying to give you food for thought. Not tell you what to do with your masterpiece.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: johnny9 on September 18, 2013, 01:25:45 PM
Here is a hot off the press not even deburred picture of the upper.  And there are still a couple more things that need to be done to it.
Ken

brilliant ken  :}{  i have been busy a lot with family matters and sorry i missed this,but you have def done an outstanding job no doubt..may be i need to make a call and get mine back ;)
just a thought..billet screw together halves for the pump section of the ksg someday..when i look at it it begs to have rails on the side of the slide sides and holes or slots..only because it would look cool and it def would ;D
keep up the awesomeness in the gun world and have fun at the shoot 8)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 18, 2013, 01:38:16 PM
SRFNKEN, I"m TOTALLY BLOWN-AWAY!!!!, A 6.5 Grendel Bullpup????, if I'm Dreaming--Dont wake me up!!!, I want on that list!!!!!, Although I BET that S-N-S is way ahead of me!!!!

racky,

Personally, though I'm well aware of the uphill challenges involved in this bold undertaking, I'm placing my bet on K&M Arms. Prompted by the friendly persuasion of Bullpup'ers like you, as well as his buddy "Tony"--- and keenly aware that a 6.5mm Grendel Bullpup would be the first in the industry --- Ken appears to be on track to making it happen.

Re the proposed left-hand version on the M17s Upper. Given that we're not working from a clean sheet of paper, as was the case of Beretta engineers on the ARX-160 with their state-of-the-art instant ambi-ejection feature, I'd like to see a design, here, which allows the change of left-/right-side ejection by simply changing the Bolt. AND, to avoid the hassle associated with such real-life choices on other present Bullpup offerings (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4270.msg39822 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4270.msg39822)), provide out-of-the-box safe, functional left and right side Bolts, with the purchase of the rifle/upper assembly. In view of today's world, it's time that Bullpup manufacturers recognize the fact that a Bullpup shouldn't be offered in just a left or right handed mode.   


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 18, 2013, 04:46:29 PM
Re the proposed left-hand version on the M17s Upper. Given that we're not working from a clean sheet of paper, as was the case of Beretta engineers on the ARX-160 with their state-of-the-art instant ambi-ejection feature, I'd like to see a design, here, which allows the change of left-/right-side ejection by simply changing the Bolt. AND, to avoid the hassle associated with such real-life choices on other present Bullpup offerings (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4270.msg39822 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4270.msg39822)), provide out-of-the-box safe, functional left and right side Bolts, with the purchase of the rifle/upper assembly. In view of today's world, it's time that Bullpup manufacturers recognize the fact that a Bullpup shouldn't be offered in just a left or right handed mode.   
I agree completely.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: dawg180 on September 18, 2013, 05:03:19 PM
Ken,

I gotta say, I understand that the gun was based off the M17, but with all the improvements you are making I would encourage you to take on a new name- you really are taking the M17 where it was meant to be originally!

How about the M-170, as I would say you are on track to make it 10 times better than the original!  ;)

Sven
Manticore Arms


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 19, 2013, 11:11:46 AM
Just saw his current set up... ****ing sexy! The charging handle is exactly how I was hoping it would be. I am curios I know you said it will have an ar trigger assembly and springs(or atleast that's how I read it). Does that mean it will utilize an ar style selector switch?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on September 19, 2013, 03:14:25 PM
S-N-S- "A 6.5 Grendel Bullpup would be a first in the Industry",+1
Dawg180- "M-170" name for K&M's new bullpup, +1
SRFNKEN- Your Buddy TONY'S request for a 6.5 Grendel bullpup, +1000000000000000


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 19, 2013, 09:05:21 PM
Sorry for no updates but have been busy working.   The selector switch is my own design.  A push in style.  It is sweet.  Updates for pictures can be found at www.kmarms.com (http://www.kmarms.com).  I think my buddy Tony wore out the trigger on it today.  He must have pulled it 100 times and is amazed each time it is pulled because it is so nice.  Come pull it for yourself at my table on saturday at the shoot.  Sorry Tony but I had to.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Cullen_Doherty on September 20, 2013, 01:18:27 AM
I really don't want to be that guy, but the purple and gold background is fabulous!

EDIT: I'm loving that barrel profile. Looks better than the original M17s.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 20, 2013, 01:19:39 AM
Hey, that is all I had at the shop.  Getting some pictures taken at the shoot this weekend.  I could take them down if you would like? :D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Cullen_Doherty on September 20, 2013, 01:21:53 AM
Hey, that is all I had at the shop.  Getting some pictures taken at the shoot this weekend.  I could take them down if you would like? :D

Oh no, don't make me that guy!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 20, 2013, 07:36:51 PM
Hey Ken, what is the weight like in comparison to a Tavor, being an all metal design and all.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 20, 2013, 09:50:53 PM
Mine right now with the side rails added is 7lb 9oz.  Still need to make some slight shanges that may reduce that some.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Dogslayer on September 20, 2013, 10:09:18 PM
Hey Ken, it was more like 30 or 40 times. I didn't want to have it break on me
the day before you left for the show.
OK, 50 at most...



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 20, 2013, 10:17:59 PM
Wow you had to join forum so I could not talk smack about you any more.  Welcome to the forum.  It's raining here so I hope it clears up tomorrow.  Forecast says otherwise but they are seldom right.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Dogslayer on September 20, 2013, 10:28:04 PM
You can talk all the smack you want. Just know that I'll see all of it.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 21, 2013, 04:23:23 AM
Mine right now with the side rails added is 7lb 9oz.  Still need to make some slight shanges that may reduce that some.
Damn, 7.9 is really good...


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 21, 2013, 04:33:04 AM
Hey Ken,  you are gonna continue to modify our M17S though right??? Your new rifle isn't gonna kill your M17S mod line is it??


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 21, 2013, 08:46:36 AM
Rows of holes along the bottom of the rectangular slots might shave a bit more weight.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 21, 2013, 08:50:08 AM
I am still going to support what I am doing now.  I actually have 5 in the shop right now that are getting worked on.  I think that work and side of the business will slow down but I am still going to be here for you guys.  I actually also brought one of my modified bm m17s to the show with me.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 21, 2013, 07:19:30 PM
Well it was a small turn out at the show today.  Rained all night and into the morning, but cleared up and was a beautiful day.  The best part besides selling another 5 rifles was watching all the expressions on the faces of people when they pull the trigger to see how nice it is.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 21, 2013, 07:40:50 PM
. . . The best part besides selling another 5 rifles was watching all the expressions on the faces of people when they pull the trigger to see how nice it is.

A major victory against the "Bullpups [triggers] suck" crowd! Looking forward to the experience.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Dogslayer on September 21, 2013, 10:03:58 PM
Good thing I didn't wear that trigger out down at your shop the day
before you left.

Dogslayer


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Hesher420 on September 22, 2013, 10:07:06 AM
Looks amazing Ken. I think its the perfect way to replace the hammer in my bushy m17s. Along with the rest of the gun.

Now here's the big question for you, how much testing are you doing prior to selling/shipping the first batch? I've always had a problem with buying the first run of anything because of many manufacturers lack of testing leading to issues/recalls.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 22, 2013, 04:09:35 PM
I noticed the ejection port seems thinner. Out of curiosity is there any reason for this?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: buckmeister on September 22, 2013, 06:06:19 PM
K&M,

Is the upper receiver from a common extrusion or CNC'd? It looks to be very close the the original, with the obvious improvements. I have a Badger ordnance AR handguard with a similar profile.
Do tell if the patent pending trigger linkage can be had by the interested for similar (and dissimilar) platforms. It is nice to see an AR based FCG used in the new offering, as opposed to the AK style used in the original.

buckmeister


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 23, 2013, 09:38:46 AM
Sorry guys, was traveling beck from the bullpup shoot yesterday.  Here are your answers:
1. The great thing about this platform is that it is a proven design in some ways.  The parts that I am changing are going to be put through some serious testing before I just throw it out there.  That is why I am in no rush to hurry up and make them and ship.  I could have the first production rolling off the line next month if there was going to be no testing.  Everything I do is quality work and will be right.  Just ask around.
2. The ejection port is smaller and lower than the BM one.  This is because it does not need to be that big and mine will eject out not up and out like the BM.
3. I had the extrusion die made for the upper.  It is Similar to the BM one on the contour but there are significant changes that are done to it so you can not just put your BM parts in it for a replacement part.
4. The trigger platform is such that it will not work on other current platforms.  None of the current platforms use standard Ar15 trigger parts.  But they might start to rethink their designs after this weekend and feeling my trigger.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: buckmeister on September 23, 2013, 01:14:18 PM
You might want to consider selling the FCG for those of us who DIY and roll our own.

buckmeister


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 23, 2013, 02:18:07 PM
You might want to consider selling the FCG for those of us who DIY and roll our own.

buckmeister

I am not sure how this would help you on any other platform.  It will not install or do anything on a standard AR as my pin locations are different and I cut off the trigger.  It will only work in my platform.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 23, 2013, 02:26:01 PM
Will it be possible to buy replacement parts from your site in order to swap out broken parts for those who run their guns harder than most? Does it take AR barrels or does its piston setup make that impossible? Also have you modified the bolt other than how it ejects?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 23, 2013, 02:59:46 PM
Yes you will be able to buy replacement parts just like any other firearm on the market.  Not standard ar barrel and the bolt is totally different design and not standard ar replacement except for ejector and extractor parts.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Hesher420 on September 23, 2013, 06:24:20 PM
I do not see the 4 bolts in the left side of the upper for the bolt guide rail like the 'ole bushy. Will the new model have a rotating / locking bolt?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 23, 2013, 06:41:04 PM
Yes it will but a different design for the locking rotator.  It is another item I have to get patented so I can not give specifics.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: MIG90 on September 23, 2013, 10:36:48 PM
Ken, your new "M-170" is cool and all, but I just checked out your site and saw "St. George Arms .22 Magnum bullpup, with an internal 50 round magazine" ........so........uh.........what's that about :P. I'll wait patiently, my wallet can't take it anyways.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 23, 2013, 11:01:51 PM
Yes I will also be producing a .22 magnum rifle for St. George Arms. http://stgeorgearms.com/ (http://stgeorgearms.com/)  He had a prototype model at the show that was not complete but will be in the near future.  As you know Charles St. George was the original designer of the M17s in Australia.  How cool is that?  If none of you know Charles and I have become good friends over the past year and bounce ideas off each other.  He will likely be using my trigger design in his 22 magnum.  No pictures yet but as soon as there are some I will post them on the site.  I will also add the link to his site now that it is up and running.  Start saving your money boys we are going to make you broke with all the new bullpups we are going to be making.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 23, 2013, 11:50:08 PM
He just posted a picture on his site, how funny is that.  And yes he will be using my upper extrusion on his rifle.
http://stgeorgearms.com/ (http://stgeorgearms.com/)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 24, 2013, 12:22:52 AM
. . .  Start saving your money boys we are going to make you broke with all the new bullpups we are going to be making.

Ken,

"Make" a 21st Century 6.5mm Grendel M17S that shoots 1/2-inch groups at 100 yards, and you'll catch the interest of the good guys over at the 6.5 Grendel Forum, whose primary platform has been the AR-15 --- I think you can do it!

(http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3702-Military-round-comparison&p=72640 (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3702-Military-round-comparison&p=72640)) (Scroll down the page to Reply #200).


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: MIG90 on September 24, 2013, 12:29:07 AM
Hmm.... there is all sorts of space for a magazine in there somewhere. I just can't figure out where :/. K&M is starting to become quite the firearms design and manufacturing firm Ken :).


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 24, 2013, 01:58:36 AM
I just ran a butt load of mags through my bushpup (modified by ken of course) and I imagine I'd have been a bit uncomfortable due to the heat of the upper if it hadn't been for the plastic cheek rest you installed. Does your new design have the same heat problems?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 24, 2013, 10:14:01 AM
I really don't want to be that guy, but the purple and gold background is fabulous!

EDIT: I'm loving that barrel profile. Looks better than the original M17s.
I changed the pictures out just for you! ;D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 24, 2013, 06:04:15 PM
I'm literally waiting with my wallet in hand to buy the lower receiver.... Any idea on a price point for just the lower??? I know the whole rifle will be $1,800....


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: maleante on September 24, 2013, 06:15:26 PM
Could someone please post the link to KM arms new site? I know that it was mentioned somewhere in these pages...
Thanks!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 24, 2013, 06:30:21 PM
No price on the lower yet.  www.kmarms.com (http://www.kmarms.com)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Hesher420 on September 24, 2013, 09:17:05 PM
Ken,

last round hold open?

nonreciprocating charging handle?

I don't see the bolt release in the pics on your site.



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 24, 2013, 09:36:25 PM
Yes, yes and I still have a couple of parts to make.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: dawg180 on September 25, 2013, 02:19:03 PM
Ken,

last round hold open?

nonreciprocating charging handle?

I don't see the bolt release in the pics on your site.



Yes, there is a last round hold open, and the charging handle is non-reciprocating.

The bolt release wasn't installed on the prototype at the shoot, but there is a spot for it.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 25, 2013, 03:11:38 PM
If you make the bolt release paddle larger it will be easier to hit it while doing speed reloads, wspecially under stress.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: stre-tch on September 25, 2013, 04:10:01 PM
2 questions


What is the ID of the handguard?


Can these be converted to a SBR


I was thinking a 11-12" barrel with the suppressor down inside the handguard which would have the OAL WITH suppressor being <26" >:D


That would be sweet

Also I know it might not be the most popular around here but I really like the 6.8 SPC for it's capabilities out of a SBR........So if you are going to do a 6.5 G please consider the 6.8 SPC eventually

 ;D



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: wfcwfc on September 25, 2013, 09:02:45 PM
Ken
Dont be listening to all these miscreants and malcontents. 
They should be content that you are bringing a new bullpup to market
Make it is 6.5 this, or 6.8 that.
And make the barrel shorter or longer, and please don't forgot the drink holder.
You just go ahead and make your rifle exactly the way you want to.
Im sure 5.56 will be fine.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 25, 2013, 10:15:33 PM
Yeah, I think 5.56x45 and 300blk are the only calibers needed, the rest are just "gimmicks" only the .308 would be feasible... The biggest competition for this thing is the Tavor, which I am SO GLAD I didn't order now that this thing is coming and its not available tin .300blk either.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 25, 2013, 11:37:39 PM
Yeah, I think 5.56x45 and 300blk are the only calibers needed, the rest are just "gimmicks" only the .308 would be feasible... The biggest competition for this thing is the Tavor, which I am SO GLAD I didn't order now that this thing is coming and its not available tin .300blk either.
Ken
Dont be listening to all these miscreants and malcontents. 
They should be content that you are bringing a new bullpup to market
Make it is 6.5 this, or 6.8 that.
And make the barrel shorter or longer, and please don't forgot the drink holder.
You just go ahead and make your rifle exactly the way you want to.
Im sure 5.56 will be fine.


Have you guys looked at the calendar, lately? It's 2013, going on 2014. The 20th Century is long gone!

Clearly, Ken has got his shirt sleeves rolled up in a bold move to make the 1980's M17S worthy of the 21st Century --- and, yes, that includes the long-needed updating to 21st Century calibers! Let's hope other Bullpup manufacturers take note of Ken's outside-the-box thinking.

Check out the other Shooting Sites. Shooters are welcoming a 6.5mm Grendel Bullpup! I'm confident Ken's effort will be a winner!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on September 26, 2013, 12:13:06 AM
wfcwfc & pd2bp253, well short-n-sassy, beat me to the response, but for clarity I looked up "miscreant & malcontent" on google:
Miscreant (noun) " A personwho behaves badly or in a way that breaks the law"
(adjective) --(of a person) "Behaving badly or in a way that breaks a law or rule"
ALSO "5.56 & 300BLK are the only calibers needed--the rest are just gimmicks"
MALCONTENT; (noun) Aperson who is dissatisified & rebellious.
(adjective) Dissatisified & complaining or a trouble maker.
...
OK lets remember that not to long ago, 300BLK was considered a GIMMICK, how come??? BECAUSE some "malcontents" wanted a harder hitting round out of their AR's, especially the S.B.R. crowd, due to the 223/556 "whimping-out" at shorter barrell lengths.
also lets not forget many spec ops guys "complaining" about the 556 preformance, to the point that some of them decided to opt for a better preforming round with better terminal ballistics, that caused the creation of the 6.8 spc & 6.8 spcII, a GIMMICK.
And check out the ballistic charts of 6.5 Grendel vs 308 nato, Its interesting to note that after 300 yds the grendel is faster & harder hitting than the 308 nato in a smaller/ lighter package!!, well all these qualities of 6.8 & 6.5 may be gimmicks, But I'll be Damned to let someone "diss" my cup holder option!!!!, a line in the sand has been drawn!!!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: wfcwfc on September 26, 2013, 07:49:22 AM
 ;D
Kens trigger will sell the rifle.
He will sell as many rifles as he can make.
And I like 5.56 just fine.







Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: stre-tch on September 26, 2013, 09:51:09 AM
Ken
Dont be listening to all these miscreants and malcontents. 
They should be content that you are bringing a new bullpup to market
Make it is 6.5 this, or 6.8 that.
And make the barrel shorter or longer, and please don't forgot the drink holder.
You just go ahead and make your rifle exactly the way you want to.
Im sure 5.56 will be fine.


Wow - Didn't mean to whiz in your cheerios - I apologize if when someone is thinking outside the box I throw a few ideas at him before everything is set in stone.  I apologize for having wants different from you.  I will get back in line and keep my mouth shut. Good thing every gun is exactly the same and there is no variability because everyone wants them all the same.


As for me being malcontent with the design. I guess I must like it enough to get on the waiting list as it is right now.  Ken has done and awesome job with updating the design and seeing as he specializes in modifying M17's I think is more than open to hear what people want customized on them.


Ken  - from the breech how far is it to the gasblock for the piston?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: gunhand on September 26, 2013, 10:10:28 AM
 After just a few years (18) carrying a bullpup rifle everyday for work (U.S. Customs AUG-P) I'll weigh in on this. What Ken is undertaking is HUGE. In this political climate, to go full-force and bring a new rifle to the marketplace is a monumental task.

 That being said, it's the market place, and what sells in the market place, is what is going to suceed. With last years gun scare, and the run on rifles and ammunition, it made just trying to get even .22LR ammunition a chore, not to mention the market-driven price spike!

 So I think it's a very wise move to bring the new rifle out in 5.56mm, the currently most prolific caliber available for a semi-auto rifle. YES, the 6.5 and 6.8 are great calibers, but realistically, they are in very short supply, when compared with 5.56mm. 5.56mm is, and will be for a long time to come, the current U.S. military caliber. Yes, it has it's limitations, and yes the Spec-Ops community has done some testing with other calibers. At the end of the day, the Spec-Ops community is still heavily using weapons systems in the primary calibers of 5.56mm and 7.62 NATO.

 Until the main service weapons of the U.S. military goes to another caliber, bringing out this new rifle in 5.56mm makes perfect business sense. And the follow-on rifle in 7.62 NATO also makes pefect business sense!
 


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 10:29:46 AM
2 questions

What is the ID of the handguard?

Can these be converted to a SBR

I was thinking a 11-12" barrel with the suppressor down inside the handguard which would have the OAL WITH suppressor being <26" >:D

That would be sweet

Also I know it might not be the most popular around here but I really like the 6.8 SPC for it's capabilities out of a SBR........So if you are going to do a 6.5 G please consider the 6.8 SPC eventually

 ;D

ID of the upper receiver is not the limiting factor, it is the distance from the bottom of the inside of the upper  to the center of the barrel which is .500.  So to put a can inside the max dia the can has to be is 1.000.  Sorry but you will not be able to put a can inside.
Yes you can SBR it if you want, but I will not be doing it at this time.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 10:32:35 AM
Yeah, I think 5.56x45 and 300blk are the only calibers needed, the rest are just "gimmicks" only the .308 would be feasible... The biggest competition for this thing is the Tavor, which I am SO GLAD I didn't order now that this thing is coming and its not available tin .300blk either.
Ken
Dont be listening to all these miscreants and malcontents. 
They should be content that you are bringing a new bullpup to market
Make it is 6.5 this, or 6.8 that.
And make the barrel shorter or longer, and please don't forgot the drink holder.
You just go ahead and make your rifle exactly the way you want to.
Im sure 5.56 will be fine.


Have you guys looked at the calendar, lately? It's 2013, going on 2014. The 20th Century is long gone!

Clearly, Ken has got his shirt sleeves rolled up in a bold move to make the 1980's M17S worthy of the 21st Century --- and, yes, that includes the long-needed updating to 21st Century calibers! Let's hope other Bullpup manufacturers take note of Ken's outside-the-box thinking.

Check out the other Shooting Sites. Shooters are welcoming a 6.5mm Grendel Bullpup! I'm confident Ken's effort will be a winner!
Lets hope they do not notice so I can take the market by storm and have them all chasing me when their sales drop.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 10:39:52 AM

[/quote]
Ken  - from the breech how far is it to the gasblock for the piston?
[/quote]

From the breach to the front of the gas block is 10.5"  then you will need .625 for the threads for your can or flash hider.  So the shortest the barrel can be is really 11" if that is what you are asking.  And then will there be enough pressure to push the piston back to cycle the bolt.  Not sure since the gas port will be at the very end of the barrel.  You would probably have to only shoot it with a can on it to get it to cycle properly.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: MIG90 on September 26, 2013, 07:00:21 PM
I don't think this was asked yet, are there any plans for built in QD mounts Ken?

Gotta' have me some QD mounts :).


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 07:18:56 PM
I don't think this was asked yet, are there any plans for built in QD mounts Ken?

Gotta' have me some QD mounts :).
If you look at the pictures on the web site you can see there is one on each side at the butt stock.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: MIG90 on September 26, 2013, 07:25:17 PM
Good deal.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 07:36:26 PM
To everyone watching this thread continue to grow, there is no need to worry.  I have been working on this project for a year now and with working on the BM version for 5 years now I have an intimate relationship with this design.  I have added almost everything that people have been asking for over this 5 year period plus some extras that I think give it the finishing touch.  This design will have everything that is needed to be the next generation bullpup rifle.  Have I mentioned about the awesome trigger it has on it?  Probably more than once. ;D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PZC on September 26, 2013, 07:53:31 PM
Ken: Would you consider a true free floating barrel for your upper?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 07:56:44 PM
No


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: MIG90 on September 26, 2013, 07:59:44 PM
To everyone watching this thread continue to grow, there is no need to worry.  I have been working on this project for a year now and with working on the BM version for 5 years now I have an intimate relationship with this design.  I have added almost everything that people have been asking for over this 5 year period plus some extras that I think give it the finishing touch.  This design will have everything that is needed to be the next generation bullpup rifle.  Have I mentioned about the awesome trigger it has on it?  Probably more than once. ;D

Trigger, what trigger ;). Not only are you building an all metal, semi-free floating, awesome looking bullpup, but your also single handily destroying the "bullpup triggers suck" mold?Innovation at it's best.

It's already been mentioned in this thread, but this rifle really seems to have very little in common with the M17s. It looks similar, sure. But not like the hundreds of AR's from dozens of firearms manufacturers that all look the same. The design and mechanics are fundamentally different.

Will you be naming this rifle anew Ken? I think it would be very fitting.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 08:04:51 PM
I have not totally decided as of yet.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: wfcwfc on September 26, 2013, 08:32:25 PM
Ken
Dont be listening to all these miscreants and malcontents. 
They should be content that you are bringing a new bullpup to market
Make it is 6.5 this, or 6.8 that.
And make the barrel shorter or longer, and please don't forgot the drink holder.
You just go ahead and make your rifle exactly the way you want to.
Im sure 5.56 will be fine.


Wow - Didn't mean to whiz in your cheerios - I apologize if when someone is thinking outside the box I throw a few ideas at him before everything is set in stone.  I apologize for having wants different from you.  I will get back in line and keep my mouth shut. Good thing every gun is exactly the same and there is no variability because everyone wants them all the same.


As for me being malcontent with the design. I guess I must like it enough to get on the waiting list as it is right now.  Ken has done and awesome job with updating the design and seeing as he specializes in modifying M17's I think is more than open to hear what people want customized on them.


Ken  - from the breech how far is it to the gasblock for the piston?


whiz in your cheerios!  ;D ;D ha ha. 


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: MIG90 on September 26, 2013, 09:03:03 PM
I have not totally decided as of yet.

Well, if you can't decide between names, may I suggest starting up a new thread and letting the public vote for their favorite?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: jeff357 on September 26, 2013, 10:30:52 PM
I can, but this would not be as easy as an AR80% lower to make operational.  There is more to it than just using a drill press.  You would then also have to buy all the components to go into it.  But what ever the market demands is what I will end up building.

Then with all the laws in Cali being passed, production with a bullet button is needed ASAP.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 10:39:43 PM
OAL is 26.25"  Not legal in CA anyways unless you permanently attach a real long muzzle device.  And it uses a standard AR mag release so a bullet button can be installed no problem.  I suggest you move from California like I did.  I am not sure what I am going to do with CA compliant rifles yet, but it will not be with the first 100 sold sorry.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: jeff357 on September 26, 2013, 10:55:14 PM
Thanks, My current Gen 2 version with your top rail installed on is a registerd pre 89 assault rifle. I am concerned about fing spare parts. If I end up selling it, It would have to leave Cali anyway. Your lower is awsome looking.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 26, 2013, 11:02:59 PM
I forgot to say welcome to the forum.  Don't worry about spare parts. just shoot your rifle.  nothing really goes wrong with the design.  And I make firing pins and ejector and extractor are standard AR parts.  So have fun with it.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: stre-tch on September 27, 2013, 10:04:21 AM
Ken -


Thanks for taking the time to respond to the questions asked here!

Just a few more

1. What profile will the barrels be?


2. You said the barrels are not ar15 barrel but could and ar15 barrel blank be converted to be used (just thinking about replacement if/when one gets shot out  >:D )?

3. Right now where is the balance point when the rifle is fully loaded (I will be running a pig of a supressor 28oz out on the end and would like to know how it will affect the balance)

4. Do you think a 22lr conversion kit could be modified to work with one of these (a la CMMG)?



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 27, 2013, 05:11:33 PM
Ken -


Thanks for taking the time to respond to the questions asked here!

Just a few more

1. What profile will the barrels be?


2. You said the barrels are not ar15 barrel but could and ar15 barrel blank be converted to be used (just thinking about replacement if/when one gets shot out  >:D )?

3. Right now where is the balance point when the rifle is fully loaded (I will be running a pig of a supressor 28oz out on the end and would like to know how it will affect the balance)

4. Do you think a 22lr conversion kit could be modified to work with one of these (a la CMMG)?



1. The profile is my own design, but similar to the current M17s
2. No, but you will be able to purchase replacements from me at a reasonable price once I get production up and going.
3. I do not have that information right now.
4. I have no idea at the moment.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on September 28, 2013, 01:22:12 AM
Will the lower be available AFTER you sell the first 100 rifles???


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 28, 2013, 01:36:45 AM
It will all depend on how rifle sales go.  The lowers will go first to the backlog of rifles and when that gets slow then I will offer lowers.  Compleat rifles come first.  Watch the website for availability.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: haligan101 on September 28, 2013, 02:31:21 AM
Just found this thread and sent a request to be in the first 100  :D. I had a BM 17 10 years ago, I loved the set up and it got me hooked on bullpups in general, but it had nothing but isues and kept going back and forth to BM till it wouldnt get taken any more, then I sold it. Look forward to getting a much better one.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 28, 2013, 02:34:45 PM
So just out of curiousity how many people are on that list for the first 100 rifles? I'm sn 15


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 28, 2013, 06:50:27 PM
Just gave away S/N 40, and I only started taking names about 3 weeks ago.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 28, 2013, 07:14:43 PM
Things are looking good then. I figured if they weren't taking off now after the first batch came out and people started hitting the range with them it would definitely take off then. People are often skeptical at first about something new, once they try out a buddies they will want one.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 28, 2013, 11:33:57 PM
Yea, I am not worried one bit about it.  It is going just how I expected it to go at the begining.  One thing to note is that most of the people have either had work done by me before and know the quality work I do. Or they have had the rifle in their hands and can.see all the quality work that has gone into this project.  It sure is fun.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: kkt on September 29, 2013, 03:17:21 AM
No more front cap.

Nice design, out of curiosity, why was the front cap omitted?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 29, 2013, 10:15:31 AM
For more airflow and to remove the tension from the front of the barrel. 


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 29, 2013, 11:08:32 PM
For more airflow and to remove the tension from the front of the barrel. 

A welcome change, consistent with improving the original design. Forgive my excitement, as this plan gains momentum!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on September 30, 2013, 09:15:28 AM
Have you shot the new design yet? If yes, what type of groups are you getting as a result of the new free floatingish barrel set up?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 30, 2013, 09:19:49 AM
I still have a couple things in the prototype stage so there has not been any test firing as of yet.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on September 30, 2013, 02:07:51 PM
srfnken, you mentioned a "custom-gun " option, just out of curiosity, when you make the 308 rifles, would it be possible to get a "custom" 6.5 Creedmore ????.
Also will there be a big difference in price, between the 556 rifles & the 308 rifles???


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on September 30, 2013, 02:23:16 PM
Only time will tell with the cost of the..308 and other custom calibers.  Sorry that is all I have for info at the moment.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on September 30, 2013, 11:32:00 PM
srfnken, you mentioned a "custom-gun " option, just out of curiosity, when you make the 308 rifles, would it be possible to get a "custom" 6.5 Creedmore ????.
Also will there be a big difference in price, between the 556 rifles & the 308 rifles???

racky,

Some personal input on the 6.5mm Grendel vs the 6.5mm Creedmoor, in a Bullpup configuration, for your consideration:

Not surprisingly, when Ken first announced a .308 version, I immediately thought of the 6.5mm Creedmoor --- both share the 1/2-inch longer AR-l0-length action and the 0.473" cartridge rim diameter (the .223/5.56x45mm rim diameter is 0.378"; the 6.5mm Grendel rim diameter is 0.445", both share the short AR-15-length action).;

Though the case rim diameter of the 6.5mm Grendel is much closer to that of the .308 (0.028"), than to the .223/5.56x45mm (0.067"), it gets by with the smaller AR-15 Bolt size, by limiting its operating pressure to 50,000 psi. Whereas, "The 6.5mm Creedmoor factory ammo is loaded to 'under 60,000 psi,' according to Hornady engineers." Not a problem, due to the much larger AR-10 Bolt size. It all has to do with "Bolt Thrust" (http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?4802-Bolt-Thrust-FAQ (http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?4802-Bolt-Thrust-FAQ)). In short: The factory-loaded 6.5mm Grendel, which strong case can handle 58,000 psi to 60,000 psi operating pressures, is offered in a detuned state to offset its increased Bolt Thrust on the smaller .223/5.56x45mm AR-15 Bolt.

However, handloaders of the 6.5mm Grendel-chambered Bolt-action rifles or "Big Bolt" AR-15 rifles are under no such restriction. The result: 2650 fps - 2700 fps from a 22" barrel and 2500 fps - 2550 fps from a 16.5" barrel, both, with the Lapua Scenar 139-grain projectile (BC - 0.615). The 6.5mm Creedmoor is at its best in long-barreled rifles (Desert Tactical Arms lists its 6.5mm Creedmoor-chambered Bullpup rifle with a 26" barrel). However, when shot out of a 16.5" barrel, the 6.5mm Creedmoor's muzzle velocity with the 139-grain bullet is approx. 2575 fps (http://www.sincityprecision.com/?p=1503 (http://www.sincityprecision.com/?p=1503)), in the same ball park as the "Big Bolt" 6.5mm Grendel handloads, while the 50,000 psi-limited 6.5mm Grendel, with the 139-grain bullet, leaves the 16-inch AR-15 barrel at 2305 fps.

Bottom line: Performance wise, a "Big Bolt" 6.5mm Grendel and a 6.5mm Creedmoor, in a short 16-inch barreled rifle, are essentially the same. The 1/2-inch longer 6.5mm Creedmoor requires an AR-10-length-action Lower, while the "Big Bolt" 6.5mm Grendel uses the same Lower as the .223/5.56mm.

 


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on October 01, 2013, 01:32:48 PM
Short-N-Sassy, thanks  for the heads up, It makes even more sense then, for a carbine to use 6.5 Grendel, plus the ammo is lighter & smaller.

SRFNKEN, thanks for the Info, I was just "thinking-out-loud", and as GunHand mentioned, It makes sense to come-out with a 556 first (Due to the enormous popularity /use of the caliber), & 308 too.
 BUT I hope that a 6.5 Grendel would'nt be very far away from the initial release!!???


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on October 01, 2013, 03:51:44 PM
racky,

I just got off the phone with WOLF Performance Ammunition, Placentia, CA. Availability of the long-awaited low-cost WOLF Steel Case 6.5mm Grendel ammo? "December."


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 01, 2013, 09:28:03 PM
BUT I hope that a 6.5 Grendel would'nt be very far away from the initial release!!???
Sorry can't commit to a time frame on this one.  Remember I have to get some cash flow going before I can develop other platforms.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: MrTuffPaws on October 03, 2013, 04:44:44 PM
srfnken,

Any chance we could get a picture of the the front or the back?  I am curious if you removed the trapezoid shape cross section.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 03, 2013, 07:05:07 PM
It is basically the same extrusion but thinner wall section so it's lighter.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: haligan101 on October 05, 2013, 11:14:39 AM
are the cuts in the side and the front end being open going to cause problems with debris getting in the gun and messing stuff up?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 05, 2013, 11:17:37 AM
Nope


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on October 06, 2013, 12:59:39 AM
Mine has those cuts and you could put a balogna sandwhich in there and it would still shoot.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on October 09, 2013, 11:26:07 PM
Hey Ken, when your revised M17 is completed, will you be allowing reviewers such as Mrgunsngear and the Military Arms Channel perform objective reviews on your offering!!?!? I would love to see what reputable reviewers like them have to say....


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 09, 2013, 11:27:46 PM
Sure will


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on October 10, 2013, 01:06:24 PM
racky,

I just got off the phone with WOLF Performance Ammunition, Placentia, CA. Availability of the long-awaited low-cost WOLF Steel Case 6.5mm Grendel ammo? "December."
...
Good News my friend!!!, Good news Indeed!!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Hesher420 on October 17, 2013, 10:56:51 AM
Ken, you have that bolt release ready to go?  Any pictures?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 17, 2013, 12:21:43 PM
Nope not yet.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: machinegunnertim on October 20, 2013, 08:40:31 PM
I have a couple of questions that I didn't see addressed.

Will the internal operating components of the upper still be an AR180?

One things that has really bugged me about the AR180/M17 is how the piston is locked in place keeping you from servicing it unless you do some major disassembly.  It would seem like an easy task to have a proven piston system like the Adams Arms system adapted to impinge on the AR180 type bolt carrier.

Do you plan to address the lack of user serviceability with the piston components?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 21, 2013, 09:11:48 AM

Will the internal operating components of the upper still be an AR180?

One things that has really bugged me about the AR180/M17 is how the piston is locked in place keeping you from servicing it unless you do some major disassembly.  It would seem like an easy task to have a proven piston system like the Adams Arms system adapted to impinge on the AR180 type bolt carrier.

Do you plan to address the lack of user serviceability with the piston components?

Yes it will have a AR180 carrier assembly, and the short stroke piston system but mine will be a little different.  With the piston system you will be able to easily take it apart by removing the barrel and removing 2 screws from the gas block and the piston will come right out.  Nothing major and anyone can to it.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on October 21, 2013, 09:14:37 AM
I just can't wait to see it shooting. Or to shoot it.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 21, 2013, 09:16:06 AM
I just can't wait to see it shooting. Or to shoot it.

Patience grasshopper ;D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on October 21, 2013, 03:33:45 PM
I just can't wait to see it shooting. Or to shoot it.

Patience grasshopper ;D

Call me, "Grasshopper"!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on October 22, 2013, 09:26:45 PM
I know it should be getting shipped next year which is like just around the corner, but I'm like a kid when it comes to my toys. When I get it I'm gonna be like a kid on christmas morning.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on October 22, 2013, 09:46:23 PM
Well its almost shoot ready.  Last thing is the bolt and chamber.  The carrier and barrel extension are done.  The one I brought to the show was just a mock up.  Since I have had some time to think and looking at the rifle i have been making other minor changes.  Nothing anybody would notice but me.  I am excited to test this new bolt design and cam track and put a bunch of ammo down range.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: skippy45 on October 23, 2013, 03:45:43 PM
Can't wait.. saving my pennies for when it is ready... Keep us updated... post pics and vids...lol :o


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: buckmeister on October 26, 2013, 09:58:17 AM
The extrusion is reminiscent of the Badger Ordnance stabilizer handguards, which gave the AR a M17-ish look. Looking forward to your product.

buckmeister


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Gear Head on October 28, 2013, 09:49:54 AM
I haven't been able to get over here to this thread lately but ever since seeing the prototype at the shoot, I have been very excited. My hopes of a 300BLK bullpup are getting closer!

While I was typing this, I had the thought if the 9mm mag block would work and having a 9mm bolt and barrel as well in the future. Just another thing for yo to work on there buddy. LOL


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: BigShu on November 10, 2013, 10:57:30 PM
Ken,
What are you up to on pre-orders? I'm #17. I just want to make sure I can use the upper you modified for me with the new lower. I'm wanting to keep the full length barrel. As far as ambi controls go, will the side charging handle be ambi, as on the ACR? Thanks, and keep up the good work. Can't wait to see the first article in the gun mags about your work.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on November 15, 2013, 12:39:40 AM
I am about at #50 for the pre-orders
I am starting a new thread as there is now lead down range.
http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4719.0 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4719.0)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on November 15, 2013, 10:32:11 PM
OK here is another tease.  Here is the lower being swapped out to be used on my upper and the bushmaster upper.  100% interchangeable.  Sorry no sound as it was too windy.  notice that it has a true drop free mag well and that there are only 2 take down pins, no need for 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59uDPy80j7M&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59uDPy80j7M&feature=youtu.be)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: johnny9 on November 15, 2013, 10:36:33 PM
very nice ken ;)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Sgt_P on November 16, 2013, 09:51:49 AM
Here's the video embedded:



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on December 06, 2013, 09:31:22 AM
Ok here is an update to all that is following this thread.

Here are some of the changes and spec changes.

Final weight: 7lb 3.4oz
OAL: 26.25"
Shorter top rail as not to hit your face while firing.
Shorter lower rail for hand placement on the lower receiver like gripping your magazine on a AR-15 with your left hand.
Trigger pull weight: 3.5lb or 5lb.  You decide at the time of order, it is not adjustable
Ambi mag release
Changed the right side magazine button stop block location for left handed shooters.  it is behind the button now not in front.
Ambi charging handle: user can switch from one side to the other.
Bolt catch that has a release paddle 30% larger than the AR-15 one.
Side rails optional:  All pre orders will come with a set of side rails.  They mount in the slots with a backing nut.  So there are no threaded holes shown if you opt to not install the rails.
Anodize: Type III Class 2 black
Tangodown pistol grip: User changeable to most ar15 pistol grips.
No left hand ejection at this time.  I have a bolt made but the left handed option will be a complete different rifle not user changeable.  Most users do not care about this so I am not going to add cost just to please a few.  Sorry.
Right side mag well engraving with a waving flag and the words "freedom is not free" will be an option for the first 100 pre-orders.  Production will not have this.

I think that is is for all the changes.
Lightest overall weight on the market in a bullpup design and its all metal!
Lightest and best trigger in a semi auto bullpup from an OEM manufacture EVER!

Here are some quick pictures I took last night after the first one in the black was put together.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Dane Gerus on December 06, 2013, 10:40:51 AM

Will the internal operating components of the upper still be an AR180?

One things that has really bugged me about the AR180/M17 is how the piston is locked in place keeping you from servicing it unless you do some major disassembly.  It would seem like an easy task to have a proven piston system like the Adams Arms system adapted to impinge on the AR180 type bolt carrier.

Do you plan to address the lack of user serviceability with the piston components?

Yes it will have a AR180 carrier assembly, and the short stroke piston system but mine will be a little different.  With the piston system you will be able to easily take it apart by removing the barrel and removing 2 screws from the gas block and the piston will come right out.  Nothing major and anyone can to it.
Can you elaborate on this with some detailed photos when you have the time?
I know I'm going to look like an ass here, but a gas system that requires tools for cleaning/service might be a deal breaker for me to be honest.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on December 06, 2013, 11:03:01 AM
You have to remove the barrel from the upper in order to get to gas system.  It takes 2 different Allen wrenches and a total of 3 screws and the barrel comes out.  No special tools there.  Then there are 2 more screws holding the gas block on the barrel.  Remove them and the gas block comes off and all the pieces just then coe apart.  It is a very simple and proven design.  I have had several rifles come through my shop that have had several thousand rounds through them and have never had the piston cleaned on them and they still function flawlesly.  This is the exact same design.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: machinegunnertim on December 06, 2013, 01:20:02 PM
So basically just shoot it and don't worry about it. Clean it every great once in a while. Re-zeroing an optic would not be a big deal so long as you didn't have to do it often. 

Very slick Ken! Especially that lower, I'm really liking the new features.

Seems like you could do a polymer lower similar to your billet one and shave off even more weight. Strength weight and design of the materials  have come a long way since the M17s lower was created.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: the_javid on December 06, 2013, 01:38:41 PM
Looks f$&#ing sexy!


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on December 06, 2013, 02:04:58 PM
. . . No left hand ejection at this time.  I have a bolt made but the left handed option will be a complete different rifle not user changeable.  Most users do not care about this so I am not going to add cost just to please a few.  Sorry. . . .

The all new K&M Arms' M17S is supposed to be the 21st Century version of the 20th Century M17S. 21st Century designs like the Beretta ARX-160/100, as well as the Longziz #1 recognize the approximately one-third of the world's population who need/prefer to shoot a rifle from the left shoulder. On behalf of those users, WE DO CARE! And, we shouldn't have to pay a premium, because the M17S didn't take into account the clear hazard to left-handed shooters! "Sorry" won't do it, in the 21st Century!

Longziz, the shooting world needs your Longziz#1!

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2lbeuth.jpg)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on December 06, 2013, 02:13:02 PM
It will be offered in a left handed version at the same cost.  Not a premimum.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on December 06, 2013, 02:20:52 PM
It will be offered in a left handed version at the same cost.  Not a premimum.


Thank you.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: racky on December 06, 2013, 04:07:32 PM
KEN, I know your planing on releasing the 223/556 batch of guns first, and this question might be premature, but do you have a time line as to the sequence /Order of the different calibers???, eg; 1--223/556, 2--300blackout, 3--6.5 grendel, 4--7.62x39
5--308, etc,?????.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Hesher420 on December 06, 2013, 08:18:56 PM
It looks AWESOME Ken! I'm waiting very impatiently!

Have you started on the owners manual yet? It may be a minor thing, but a well done owners manual makes a great 1st impression when you unbox you're new gun. If you've seen the Tavor's manual, you'll know what I mean. (Sturdy / Color Images / Informative)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on December 06, 2013, 09:31:51 PM
KEN, I know your planing on releasing the 223/556 batch of guns first, and this question might be premature, but do you have a time line as to the sequence /Order of the different calibers???, eg; 1--223/556, 2--300blackout, 3--6.5 grendel, 4--7.62x39
5--308, etc,?????.
Sorry I do not, but hope to have the 300 blackout by mid year and the
308 win at the bullpup shoot next year.  And them the 6.5 then the 7.62x39.
I have to get rolling on the 5.56 first.
today was my first real gun show that I brought the rifle too and had a great response to it.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on December 06, 2013, 09:35:11 PM
It looks AWESOME Ken! I'm waiting very impatiently!

Have you started on the owners manual yet? It may be a minor thing, but a well done owners manual makes a great 1st impression when you unbox you're new gun. If you've seen the Tavor's manual, you'll know what I mean. (Sturdy / Color Images / Informative)
yes I have been thinking about it and I'm a manufacturing engineer by trade so I am used to doing manuals and step-by-step instructions so it will be a good one.  Iwi did a great job on there one that they produced for the tavor very impressive.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Hesher420 on December 06, 2013, 11:39:11 PM
Oh, and I love the look of that flash hider. A very nice touch.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on December 10, 2013, 05:56:36 PM
KEN, I know your planing on releasing the 223/556 batch of guns first, and this question might be premature, but do you have a time line as to the sequence /Order of the different calibers???, eg; 1--223/556, 2--300blackout, 3--6.5 grendel, 4--7.62x39
5--308, etc,?????.
Sorry I do not, but hope to have the 300 blackout by mid year and the
308 win at the bullpup shoot next year.  And them the 6.5 then the 7.62x39.
I have to get rolling on the 5.56 first.
today was my first real gun show that I brought the rifle too and had a great response to it.

Ken,

Posted today, on another Website: Thread, "New K&M Bullpup"; Post, "I handled the gun at the SAR show, this weekend. They had a prototype on the table. Ken has been working on bullpups for many years, and has completely redesigned the M17S. . . . has decided to run the Leader 3-lug type bolt in it."

Is this true? If so, I think the beefy 3-lug Bolt geometry is a great idea, considering the new calibers planned!



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on December 10, 2013, 06:03:04 PM
Yes it's true.  A 3 lug bolt with 30deg locking rotation.  Uses standard ar extractor and ejector along with pins and springs.  This design is much stronger than the ar 8 lug bolt.  And I do not have a hole going all the way thru my bolt for the cam pin.  So it is even stronger.  My bolt will not break in half or break a lug. 


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on December 10, 2013, 07:21:52 PM
Yes it's true.  A 3 lug bolt with 30deg locking rotation.  Uses standard ar extractor and ejector along with pins and springs.  This design is much stronger than the ar 8 lug bolt.  And I do not have a hole going all the way thru my bolt for the cam pin.  So it is even stronger.  My bolt will not break in half or break a lug. 

Ken,

My hat off to you! With that decision, your 21st Century version of the M17S now occupies the rarified realm of "Big Bolt" auto-loaders. And, as that upgrade relates to the planned 6.5mm Grendel chambering, I look forward to "Bolt-gun" velocities from the M17S's strengthened Bolt-Barrel Extension.

 Personally, I look forward to this exciting model-chambering, sooner than later. Color me, "Can't wait for it to happen!"
(http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4165.40 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4165.40)), Reply #50.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: skippy45 on December 13, 2013, 11:59:55 PM
Holy cow man. If the 308 is only a year or so off I will have to wait to buy a new 308 rifle. ::)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: joesmoe3 on January 01, 2014, 06:12:29 PM
I'm "SOLD" on your 'make it real' video showing the interchangeability of your new lower, and THAT is what I want.  I just sent you a 'pre-order' note for the lower.  I know you haven't yet offered it; just hoping you'll put that aside in a sub-folder to refer back for that extra cash flow which you mentioned.

Presumably, the lower is no different for your complete rifles, and I would think production processes being what they are, it would be easier to go ahead and make a double run (or some proportion) of lowers over your uppers, knowing that you can assemble and ship those at your marginal cost over the first 100, and get cash incoming for them.  You might want to go ahead and solicit an interest call ?

And, current lower aside, please put me down for another vote for the .308 !  And please keep the longer barrel to retain the wonderful performance of the round, in the beautiful form-factor of your bullpup.

Thank you !


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: PD2BP253 on February 27, 2014, 12:11:45 AM
I too want the lower...


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: ShadyPup on February 28, 2014, 04:26:54 PM
I have a question regarding the other calibers you will be offering in the future.

 Are you going to do the same thing with the other cals and offer the complete rifle first then offer the upper separate at a latter date ?

Will you allow people who have one of the 556 ver to get on the pre order list for the new cal uppers only .

When the 308 becomes available it will just drop on to the original lower ? or will parts have to be changed to handle the larger load ?

I cant wait to get my hands on mine :) I jumped on early and have a sub 50 number.

Thanks for the update



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: ShadyPup on February 28, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
And just for fun how many pre orders do you have now


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on February 28, 2014, 04:51:31 PM
Pre orders move on and off the list, but as you know from the email sent to you this morning it is time to commit real time with some $$ so I know exactly where I stand on the pre order list.  As of this morning it was at 85.  And have been busy all morning collecting money and documenting T-Shirt sizes to those on the list.

.300BLK will use the same lower as the 5.56.  Will be available as a upper assy, barrel assy, and complete firearm. 

.308 will use a newly designed lower because of the larger magazine so it will not work with a 5.56 lower.  This will be a complete rifle.

6.5 Grnedel, not sure about this one yet as far as interchangeability and my design of the 5.56.  I have not started on the development of it yet but rest assured I will develop it.



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Gear Head on March 01, 2014, 01:46:11 AM
So when do you expect the 300blk to be available?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on March 01, 2014, 09:09:41 AM
I have a couple of barrels coming with my order so I will be able to do the supersonic rounds, but the sub sonic rounds will be a bit.  I turned in my paperwork for a can 13 months ago.  The ATF raided the shop it was at and seized it so I have been working with them on trying to get it back.  I am supposed to call them mid March again to see what progress they have made with the case but I am not holding my breath.  I have since bought another one and am waiting for the paperwork for that one.  It will need to cycle with the sub sonic rounds and with a can on.  So it will all depend on when the can arrives.  This whole thing has been a mess.  I was supposed to have it a long time ago and I planed far enough in advance to not have this delay waiting for paperwork.  No class 3 hear yet, but has really made me think about doing it now.
So to answer your question if all the paperwork goes as planed and I have a can say by July, it should be August/Sept for the 300BLK.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Gear Head on March 01, 2014, 09:46:13 AM
Thanks Ken for the update.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: skippy45 on March 03, 2014, 04:58:32 PM
I put my money were my mouth is... Can't wait until the rifles are ready. 8)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on March 21, 2014, 08:28:03 AM

. . . .308 will use a newly designed lower because of the larger magazine so it will not work with a 5.56 lower.  This will be a complete rifle.

6.5 Grnedel, not sure about this one yet as far as interchangeability and my design of the 5.56.  I have not started on the development of it yet but rest assured I will develop it.

Ken, I offer the following case for incorporating the use of the newly-designed .308 platform, for the 6.5mm Grendel chambering, along with a mag adapter.

Bill Alexander sums up the dilemma resulting from the use of the larger case 6.5mm Grendel (case rim diameter: 0.444") in the AR-15 designed for the .223/5.56x45mm (case rim diameter: 0.378"), "We shoehorned a bigger cartridge into the gun. . . . Now, impose a Grendel geometry, and you are right at the tipping point."

"Tipping point," indeed! Fact is: broken lugs are not uncommon in the 6.5mm Grendel-chambered AR-15, if the SAAMI 50,000 psi limit is exceeded (http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum/ar-variant-rifle/technical-library/4587-bolt-thrust-faq (http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum/ar-variant-rifle/technical-library/4587-bolt-thrust-faq)). Aware of this penalty, I recently returned a 6.5mm Grendel chambered Barrel I used in a Bullpup'ed AR-15 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4458.0 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=4458.0)) (See Replies #4, #5). The chamber was machined incorrectly with a tight throat. The result: the projectiles of factory-loaded ammunition were being jammed into the rifling lands, upon loading, resulting in high pressure indicators, when fired. If the rifle used a beefy AR-10-size Bolt, capable of safely harnessing 58,000 psi - 60,000 psi chamber pressure, I'd have no concern and would have kept the Barrel.  

I've included the following image of three Bolts to make my point: Left, Standard AR-15 Bolt; Center, AR-15 Bolt with face opened-up to 0.473" to accept a .308 Winchester-based wildcat I used for developing .375-diameter saboted ammunition, back in the early 1970's, here, holding a 6.5mm Grendel 123-grain A-MAX cartridge; Right, Standard AR-10 Bolt (0.473" Bolt face) holding a 6.5mm Grendel 123-grain A-MAX cartridge. I dare state that the 6.5mm Grendel cartridge is at home, in the AR-10 Bolt, not to mention the 6.5mm Creedmoor cartridge --- now I'm getting ahead of myself.

Looking forward to it all coming together. Good Luck!

(http://i66.tinypic.com/34f1gki.jpg)



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: skippy45 on March 22, 2014, 02:14:52 PM
I see that you have the credit card payment stuff up on your website. Since I can't wait to get mine, I have to ask... When? any updates/ ETA ? 
 :o ::)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on March 22, 2014, 02:34:15 PM
Your in the top 50 so should be mid April.  I still have parts out at vendors that are not done and barrels aren't here yet either.  I should have a update on barrels beg of the week.  I am.busy making a bunch of parts too.  Should be done today on the first 50 uppers.  Lowers are 50% done.  It's all looking good.  I am working all the time even now to get this going.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: Steelviper on April 02, 2014, 12:33:37 AM
I kick myself every day for not picking the one up that was gathering dust at the gun store I frequented back in '08. For $425 oh the one that got away... Good to see some one is keeping the revolutionary design alive.

Can't wait to see how your .308 version pans out.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: atp on April 08, 2014, 09:46:32 AM
Ken, I offer the following case for incorporating the use of the newly-designed .308 platform, for the 6.5mm Grendel chambering, along with a mag adapter.

I believe the K&M Arms M17S is using the three-lug bolt designed by Charles St. George for the Leader T2 Mk5, which should be stronger than the multi-lug bolts of the AR-15, AR-18, and Bushmaster M17S.  (Just how much stronger, I don't know; I've never seen real numbers.)

I never have heard a convincing explanation for why the Johnson 1941 rifle, AR-15, M-16, etc. adopted bolt designs with seven or so tiny little locking lugs.  My understanding is that it's both weaker and trickier to manufacture than a two or three lug bolt, and its only compensating "advantages" are a smaller overall diameter and not needing to roatate as much to lock and unlock.  But why would that be compelling?  Perhaps I'm overlooking something, because unlike other highly questionable AR-15 design choices, the many-lugged bolt has been copied many times by later designers, who presumably weren't all fools.  Is it easier to make a bolt with many tiny lugs work with the AR-15's barrel extension design, or something like that?

If you were especially concerned with strength, you could go with a maraging steel for the bolt and barrel extension, as St. George has done with his recent Leader 50 bullpup design.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: skippy45 on April 13, 2014, 01:47:11 AM
Not trying to bug, but any updates?   ;D


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: DILLIGAF on April 13, 2014, 08:21:25 PM
Cant wait to get my lower... Send that to Canada ASAP....


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: srfnken on April 13, 2014, 08:29:57 PM
Updates sent to all on the pre order list.  I should have my Canadian version done at the end of may and off to cmp for a non restricted number.


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on May 03, 2014, 08:39:39 AM
The exciting, all-new, redesigned-for-the-21st-Century K&M Arms M17S Bullpup rifle deserves, among its multi-caliber offerings, a made-for-the-21st-Century cartridge: Wikipedia --- "The 6.5mm Creedmoor is a centerfire rifle cartridge introduced by Hornady in 2007. . . . The 6.5mm Creedmoor is capable of duplicating the trajectory of the .300 Winchester Magnum, while generating significantly lower recoil. Also, converting a rifle chambered for the .308 Winchester . . . to 6.5mm Creedmoor generally requires little more than a simple barrel change."

A stock .223/5.56x45mm-chambered M17S has an overall length of about 30", with a 21.5" Barrel. Maintaining that 30" overall length, with the 1/2"-longer .308 Winchester platform, still allows a 21" Barrel.

Fact is, the highly-efficient design of the 6.5mm Creedmoor cartridge translates to very respectable muzzle velocities with the long, sleek 140-grain Hornady A-MAX projectile (Ballistic Coefficient - 0.585), even from relatively short barrel lengths: approx. 2800 fps, from a 22" Barrel (http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/16/6-5-creedmoor-barrel-length-and-muzzle-velocity (http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/16/6-5-creedmoor-barrel-length-and-muzzle-velocity)); approx. 2700 fps, from a 20" Barrel (http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/savage-m11-lightweight-rifle (http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/savage-m11-lightweight-rifle)) (see Paragraph 3).

Is there a handy, 7-pound, 30-inch long, 6.5mm Creedmoor-chambered Bullpup --- replete with a 3 1/2-pound trigger --- on the horizon?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: ernierod on June 03, 2014, 07:49:35 PM
I am looking forward to ordering a K&M .308 model.I would hope it has a decent bbl and accuracy capability.Cheers


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on January 26, 2017, 12:22:03 PM
I just reviewed the 218 Posts on this important Thread, dormant for the past 2 1/2 years. The experience makes one realize the hard work involved in bringing a design to market, in the firearms industry.

From an experimenter's point of view, I've been unabashedly enthralled with the massive 3-lug design of the M17S Breech Bolt --- particularly, the .308 version, as it entices one to consider opening-up the inside diameter of the Bolt face 0.0305", all around, to accept the 0.534" rim diameter of magnum cartridges. Is there a short-action magnum-chambered M17S in the future?

Check out this image of "Monster 3-lug bolt for the M17S308 Bullpup" ---

(http://i65.tinypic.com/t9uopc.jpg)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 06, 2017, 09:40:25 AM
As I reviewed Dogslayer's 100-yard target results of his new M17S .308 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=9769.msg114683#msg114683 (http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=9769.msg114683#msg114683)), I was reminded to the question posed in my previous Post, above, "Is there a short-action magnum-chambered M17S in the future?"

.300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum (SAUM)
(http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd300remingtonsaum.jpg)

(http://i68.tinypic.com/350unw3.jpg)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/xkvbpl.jpg)

Though these potent short-action magnum cartridges share the same average overall length of the .308 Winchester cartridge, their short, fat magnum-capacity cases (case capacity averages about 72 grains, compared to about 56 grains for the .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO) offer an all-new, exciting dimension to auto-loading Bullpup performance.

The result (From the Hornady Ammunition website):

.308 Winchester, 178-grain Superperformance, 24" barrel --- 2,775 fps.;
.300 RCM 180-grain Superperformance, 20" barrel --- 3,040 fps.

I'd like to think that the K&M Arms Research and Development Dept. is already contemplating the next logical step in the development of their M17S .308 ---  with the "Monster 3-lug Bolt !"
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

ETA:

So, how much more K.E. does the short magnums put out over the .308 Winchester --- in a rifle with a 20-inch barrel?

The .308 Winchester 178-grain Superperformance load, above, has a muzzle velocity of about 2,693 fps, when fired from a 20-inch barrel. Resultant muzzle energy is 2,866 ft. lbs.;

The .300 RCM  180-grain Superperformance load, above, with a muzzle velocity of about 3,040 fps, fired from a 20-inch barrel, with a muzzle energy of 3,694 ft. lbs. --- 28.9% more !

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2du9tvp.jpg)


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SkirmishAblated on February 06, 2017, 11:22:27 PM
Sassy - very interesting! What would need to change in the .308 model in order to accommodate a .300 RCM?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 07, 2017, 09:28:44 AM
Sassy - very interesting! What would need to change in the .308 model in order to accommodate a .300 RCM?

SkirmishAblated,

Welcome to our Bullpup Forum !

If I owned/considered owning the K&M Arms M17S .308 Bullpup rifle, and wanted more performance (read: Magnum Performance ), such as delivered by one of the short-action magnum cartridges, I'd first confer with  a professional gunsmith to determine if the project is feasible and safe. If so, rechambering the original barrel/replacing the original barrel, opening-up the Bolt face, reworking the extractor and ejector(s), as necessary, opening-up the ejection port, as necessary, and reworking the gas piston system to achieve reliable auto-loading function of the rifle. This is what we want from these high-performing "fat ladies" ---

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2nv46wy.jpg)
(http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7360=6.5-gap-rsaum&p=107676&viewfull=1#post107676 (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7360=6.5-gap-rsaum&p=107676&viewfull=1#post107676))



Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: DarkHelmet on February 11, 2017, 01:30:01 AM
What's your strategy for taming a magnum with a muzzle that close to your face?


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: BravoBlack on February 11, 2017, 10:19:13 AM
You definitely have my attention!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Title: Re: K&M Arms M17S Billet Lower
Post by: SHORT-N-SASSY on February 11, 2017, 02:05:04 PM
Delete