BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor SAR & X-95 => Topic started by: billdit on March 28, 2013, 10:03:06 PM



Title: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: billdit on March 28, 2013, 10:03:06 PM
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a515/billdit/Tavor_zps8276b7a0.jpg)

This is the design sketch that Zalmen Shebs did when first developing the Tavor.

this was in 1996,97... took until 2006 before the Tavor was issued for use in the field.

And it took about the same length of time for it to become available in the USA, thanks to the untiring work of Michael Kassnar.  A lesser person would not have been able to continue after the setbacks and dificulties that he encountered.

Kind of a Passover gift to all of us !

Thank you Michael !!!






Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: HybridKid on March 28, 2013, 10:43:57 PM
Now that is cool! 


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: joel on March 29, 2013, 12:41:49 AM
interesting how the pistol grip had the guard scratched out and the charging handle was in a different spot.

I think the current design is neater looking, but the essence is all there. Has he made any other sketches for future weapons?


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 29, 2013, 01:35:10 AM
Here's some stuf I posted years ago in another forum:
Quote from: yoni;10842
Can anyone provide some more information here?

The picture was labeled IMI, and the magazine appears to be an Orlite.

(http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad162/yoni/Tavor/6d2631d5.jpg)

In 1994 IMI contacted 3 design companies for the tavor projects polymer body.
The picture shows the prototype of one of the design companies that did not win the contract.

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1730&d=1316816119)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1731&d=1316816175)

VERSIA MILITARY DESIGN won the contract to design the outher body of the tavor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnNvOApstZM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnNvOApstZM)
Can't make it hot... :-[


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 29, 2013, 01:37:20 AM
Tavor Evolution

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1735&d=1316817347)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1736&d=1316817350)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1737&d=1316817352)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1734&d=1316817345)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1733&d=1316817343)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1732&d=1316817340)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1738&d=1316817353)

(http://balashnikov.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1743&d=1316817814)


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 29, 2013, 01:39:05 AM
More .......


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 29, 2013, 01:43:25 AM
 Field testing ergonomy:


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 29, 2013, 01:45:56 AM
 More prototype pictures:





Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: HybridKid on March 29, 2013, 11:19:06 AM
Pretorian, for some reason I am not seeing the pics following the polymer body prototype. 


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 29, 2013, 11:20:22 AM
Pretorian, for some reason I am not seeing the pics following the polymer body prototype. 

Reply 4 thru 7 don't have pics on mine either.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: limamike55 on March 29, 2013, 11:26:55 AM
Very cool pictures of the Tavor evolution


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 29, 2013, 01:06:34 PM
Links to the pictures doesn't seem to work.
I have them on a hard drive so I'll upload them later as attachments.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 29, 2013, 05:06:01 PM
Works now.
If you cant see the pictures, let me know.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 29, 2013, 05:09:50 PM
Works now.
If you cant see the pictures, let me know.

Sorry, but still can't see them.
Just blank space.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: HybridKid on March 29, 2013, 08:32:19 PM
Same here, sir.  Cannot see the new pictures. 


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 30, 2013, 12:05:56 AM
OK, I'll try again when I'll get home.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: HybridKid on March 30, 2013, 12:11:58 AM
OK, I'll try again when I'll get home.
NP, just appreciate the effort and information.  Thanks. 


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 30, 2013, 02:04:11 PM
 More prototype pictures:
 NOTE 3 DIFFERENT CHARGING HANDLE LOCATIONS:
 1. Pistol grip area left.
 2. Handguard area top.
 3. Hanguard area left.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 30, 2013, 02:10:28 PM
 NOTE MONOPOD AND INTEGRAL FOLDING BIPOD :




Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 30, 2013, 02:14:15 PM
 LATE PROTOTYPES:


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 30, 2013, 02:16:11 PM
 Polymer body evolution:

(http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/o690/Sgt_P/P1_zpse0b6993f.jpg)


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 30, 2013, 02:18:51 PM
Pretorian,
Thanks for the persistence!
The pictures and info are great.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on March 30, 2013, 02:22:44 PM
Latest polymer body called Meron from Versia:



Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 30, 2013, 02:23:47 PM
Latest polymer body called Meron from Versia

Nice designs!
Like the Meron 3 best.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: MacKai on March 30, 2013, 03:09:30 PM
+1 on the Meron 3 .....

Pretorian if you have time can you fill in some of the story on this variant?


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 30, 2013, 03:25:46 PM
Pretorian if you have time can you fill in some of the story on this variant?

I'd love to see any of the history and story you feel inclined to fill in on all of the pictures as well as any other info you feel appropriate.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: sgt. mac on March 31, 2013, 06:22:47 PM
We need to make this a sticky, please.  There is too much info to let this slip through the cracks. 


Pretorian, thank you sir for sharing this info with us.  I have never seen this info in any gun periodical or gun encyclopedia.  If you are able to, can you elaborate any on the MTAR, X95 and CTAR models?  Perhaps stages with years or other relevant data.  Finally, can you talk about the Meron design?  Is it a totally different weapon, or is it a body kit that fits the Tavor ala' the Magal/Hezi?


 

   


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: racky on March 31, 2013, 07:12:46 PM
Interesting Progression of designs, that last FDE MERON 3, looks like it came out of the "ALIENS" movie, Thanks for the picts.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: TruBrew on March 31, 2013, 08:44:32 PM
I googled Versia Meron and found this

Quote
Is this how the weapon of the future will look? At the 2012 Eurosatory Exhibition in Paris, Israeli company Versia Military Design unveiled a new concept for a future assault rifle with a Bullpup configuration.

Based on the Israeli Tavor, the new rifle was designed as an independent enterprise. It possesses unique design, ergonomic and material characteristics, and constitutes a declaration of intents for Versia’s perception of future trends in the design of small arms.
The weapon was designed to incorporate components and functions currently available for assault rifles into a compact, futuristic unit.

Its prominent characteristics are a polymer casing intertwined with aluminum components, a 5.56 mm diameter design, and full ergonomic compatibility for left-handed and right-handed users.

The weapon includes four Picatinny rails, retractable integral bipods, multiple grip options, a cheek rest, a telescopic stock, a concealable barrel, and a flash suppresser, and also allows for the attachment of optic, silencing, and launcher measures.

Although there has been a decline in the appeal of Bullpup, and the US still has reservations about this configuration, Versia believes that there is room for development in this unique family of firearms. The company wants to elevate it to a level that can compete with weapons such as the M16 and SCAR.

http://stardefense.blogspot.com/2012/08/meron-assault-rifle.html


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: byoung on March 31, 2013, 08:48:08 PM
Very cool thread!


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 31, 2013, 08:57:19 PM
Why does the bullpup design not get more attention and use. From my perspective, it has many advantages not possible in "normal" rifles of like capability. Are there practical issues with the design that make it generally undesirable or is it simply a "not invented here" attitude or something else equally irrational.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: WLJ on March 31, 2013, 09:24:39 PM
Why does the bullpup design not get more attention and use. From my perspective, it has many advantages not possible in "normal" rifles of like capability. Are there practical issues with the design that make it generally undesirable or is it simply a "not invented here" attitude or something else equally irrational.

While bullpups have their advantages they also usually have certain disadvantages such as
1) Usually harder to clear a jam, some are a PITA
2) Usually not as lefty friendly
3) Mag changes are a bit slower, some a lot slower.
4) Eject port on most designs is close to your ear thus more noise. Try shooting one without ear protection and you'll see what I mean. It bothers some but not all.
5) Related to #4, gas in face from the eject port from time to time. Varies greatly from design to design and with ammo used.
6) Tradition   


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 31, 2013, 09:39:01 PM
While bullpups have their advantages they also usually have certain disadvantages such as

Tradition I can believe.
Harder to clear, I'm not familiar with yet.
I can understand the possibility of being louder and more gas since everything is closer.

I have seen too many videos showing quick mag changes, particularly on the Tavor, to feel they are any slower. Ambidextrous, well, it seems more bullpups are designed to work the same left or right handed from the initial designs. Some are better then others, but being left handed, I keep coming back to bullpups. Most weapons, firearms, are designed from the right handed perspective with afterthought conversions to left handed. At least thats my perspective, biased as it is in a right handed world.

Anyway, its good to learn!


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Snapperhead363 on March 31, 2013, 09:48:27 PM
I believe Bullpups are still the rifles/shotguns of the future. No longer are the wars fought in the jungles or the desert. They're fought from door to door where you want your silhouette as small as possible.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on March 31, 2013, 09:54:54 PM
...you want your silhouette as small as possible.

It would seem that is the key.
Small silhouette, small footprint, high maneuverability/control, less risk in running out of room or snagging on something. Then there is the fact that the center of gravity is closer to the holder providing greater use and advantage. I can't think of a better direction to evolve at the moment.

It would appear the Meron 3 is yet another step forward. I would upgrade to that design.
Personally, I like the evolution.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Ntelligent-Donkey on April 01, 2013, 12:07:22 AM
I think one of the biggest difficulties bullpups have is the trigger.  With a traditional design the trigger sits right below the action.  With a bullpup the action is well behind the trigger.  It is difficult to get a trigger like that to feel good.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Snapperhead363 on April 01, 2013, 12:10:00 AM
That's true. The only Bullpup trigger I've ever pulled that was as good or better than a conventional rifle is the DTA SRS.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on April 01, 2013, 12:11:23 AM
I think one of the biggest difficulties bullpups have is the trigger.  With a traditional design the trigger sits right below the action.  With a bullpup the action is well behind the trigger.  It is difficult to get a trigger like that to feel good.

Thats one even I can easily understand.
Maybe its time for one of these Bullpup Forum master fabricators to get busy and develop a match level trigger "assembly."

Yes...no...
...instant built in market.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Snapperhead363 on April 01, 2013, 12:15:33 AM
Somebody needs the schematic from the SRS!


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on April 01, 2013, 04:07:16 AM
Bolt action triggers are different than semiauto. Like releasing a spring loaded firing pin vs. releasing a hammer. Jus sayin' ...


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: JCS on April 01, 2013, 12:15:01 PM
Pretorian,

Todah rabah.  VERY interesting.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: NoShelter on April 01, 2013, 07:24:13 PM
I think one of the biggest difficulties bullpups have is the trigger.  With a traditional design the trigger sits right below the action.  With a bullpup the action is well behind the trigger.  It is difficult to get a trigger like that to feel good.

Thats one even I can easily understand.
Maybe its time for one of these Bullpup Forum master fabricators to get busy and develop a match level trigger "assembly."

Yes...no...
...instant built in market.

I'm planning on yanking out the extra reset spring, and then going to town on the hammer pack with qtips and metal polish.

I'm hoping that will make a slight difference until we get some match grade stuff on the market.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on April 02, 2013, 06:59:49 AM
This from the December 2012 Military Channel series "Combat Countdown" (episode 9 first aired Dec 19, 2012), the Tavor was listed as the number 7 out of 10 most revolutionary war machines. It was stacked up against all categories of military hardware including an anti-missile system, tanks, helicopter/aircraft and an aircraft carrier. The winner was the M2 Bradley. The Tavor was the only small arm on the list.

...a deceptively small contributor in the company of giants and a great historical note for the Tavor's résumé.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: genStrat on April 02, 2013, 07:28:17 AM
A simple short video from Versia Military Design on the Tavor CTAR 21:

    https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/VnNvOApstZM?hl=en_US&version=3&rel=0


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: WraithsOfWrath on April 02, 2013, 12:58:23 PM
Dude that was awesome :D


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: TV-PressPass on April 02, 2013, 02:49:33 PM
These photos . . . are amazing


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: sgt. mac on April 02, 2013, 02:56:07 PM
Pretorian, we need more info!  Inquiring minds want to know.   ;D


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on April 02, 2013, 03:23:35 PM
Please let me organise all the info and pictures. I want to double check my info before posting unbased BS.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: MacKai on April 02, 2013, 03:28:22 PM
Thank Pretorian... for posting the info AND double checking it


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: joel on April 04, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
wow... I just love all the info Pretorian... thanks for all this. I find the design just as enthralling as the blasting.


Title: Re: Tavor design sketch
Post by: dawg180 on April 07, 2013, 06:59:52 PM
Why does the bullpup design not get more attention and use. From my perspective, it has many advantages not possible in "normal" rifles of like capability. Are there practical issues with the design that make it generally undesirable or is it simply a "not invented here" attitude or something else equally irrational.

As far as military adoption as a service rifle, it is simply "corporate inertia."  Remember, the guys who make the training and procurement decisions went through basic training and indoctrination typical 30 years behind the present.  In addition, adopting a new rifle is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE undertaking.  You aren't just adopting a rifle and fielding it, you have to stock parts, repair tools, specialized accessories, train every single soldier on it, and also train maintenance and logistics on it, plus inevitably end up discovering quirks or having the troubleshoot issues once adopted. 

In regards to say a new 5.56 Bullpup vs. the current incarnation of the M-4/M-16 in the USA, you simply don't gain anything really beyond shorter length, but it costs a hell of a lot of time, money, resources, and the inevitable risk of something not actually working right when it is adopted, all to just throw a 5.56 round downrange in the end.

That being said, bullpups have been adopted by several counties (Britain, France, Austria, Australia, Israel, Singapore, and a host of smaller nations who purchased the designs made by those countries) so they are making inroads as time goes on. The XM21 20mm greande launcher is also a bullpup and has been in limited service in the U.S. for a few years.


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: gunnut165 on July 24, 2013, 06:48:21 PM
Very cool thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Rivron5 on October 16, 2013, 01:20:30 PM
Great info- Thanks so much for sharing. Exciting future for the Bullpup Design.


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: davidp1911 on December 25, 2013, 02:45:27 AM
Awesome post and photo sketches.  It's amazing to see the evolution of the TAVOR resulting in what we have today.  Looking forward to see the next incarnation in the near future.


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Grevlin on February 08, 2014, 12:08:58 AM
Brand new member.


This thread is one of the things that convinced me to buy a Tavor very soon, and join the forum.

The design steps are fantastic, and the logic simple and sound. It's clearly designed by people who have to literally defend their lives on a daily basis.  



Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: rpedro on February 10, 2014, 09:33:34 PM
Wow... Stumbled across this thread... Very cool!!! Thanks for sharing!!!


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Draughn101 on May 14, 2014, 08:47:54 PM
Pretorian, thanks for all the information!  Really cool thread.  Do you work for IWI, or is this personal research?  



Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: pretorian on May 15, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
I do not work for IWI. The Tavor project has been a passion of mine for more than a decade.


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Draughn101 on May 15, 2014, 05:21:50 PM
I do not work for IWI. The Tavor project has been a passion of mine for more than a decade.


I completely understand that.  About eight years ago I went through Intelligence Analyst school for the US Army and my graduation research was about the advantages of this weapon over the M-4.  I've been obsessed with it ever since.  After graduating from college I was managing a gun store and finally got a chance to buy one.  It was better than I expected and completely amazing to finally get my hands on it after 8 years of admiration.  I had a chance to shoot the L98, or one of its variants, on my deployment to Afghanistan, and I've shot the aug, but I don't feel like the compare to the tavor. 

I recently applied to IWI for a marketing and sales assistant position opening, so I'm hoping all that obsession will finally pay off. 

Thanks again for all the pictures!




Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: JP on May 28, 2014, 08:44:30 PM
I believe Bullpups are still the rifles/shotguns of the future. No longer are the wars fought in the jungles or the desert. They're fought from door to door where you want your silhouette as small as possible.

Totally agree!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: JP on May 28, 2014, 08:45:33 PM
I do not work for IWI. The Tavor project has been a passion of mine for more than a decade.
Thanks for the edification!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: kingof9x on December 06, 2016, 06:32:25 PM
I think this pic I found on TFB also belongs in this thread - http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/12/05/potd-ghost-shell/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Heavy on December 06, 2016, 07:13:22 PM
I wouldnt want the whole gun like that. But wouldnt it be fantastic for a bullpup to have a semitransparent portion just over the bolt. Not only could you see when its locked back, you would see any feeding or extracting malfunctions without having to turn the rifle. I really liked the inspection cover on the fs2000. on a rifle like the RDB or MDR where the BCG is hidden this would be an ideal solution.


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: racky on December 07, 2016, 12:11:16 AM
looks cool, but it would be best displayed at gun shows, so you could see inside, and a see-thru above the B.C.G., just like the post above said X2


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Verfed on September 25, 2017, 02:33:21 PM
Found this prototype X95. Anyone know something on it at this stage of development? Like what's up with the double magazine release, if that's what that is?

 


Title: Re: STICKY: Tavor design sketch
Post by: Verfed on December 02, 2017, 11:29:46 AM
Got another one. With a high rise rail and still with the rear magazine release. Anyone know this one?