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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: thehun on August 12, 2019, 11:21:02 AM



Title: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange - Ergonomics
Post by: thehun on August 12, 2019, 11:21:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHUpdFh0MUE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHUpdFh0MUE)

Pretty fair testing with people that are not familiar with the platforms...they named it cold start...how good someone could pick up the weapon and go

Ergos:

MDR placed 5th out of 8 ... how about them ergo superiority  ::) ...  22% slower than 1st ::)

FN SCAR placed 3rd out of 8 ..... 7% slower than 1st

Robinson Arms 1st out of 8 .... figured the AR10 would have won since pretty much everyone knows AR controls ...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: Plinker on August 12, 2019, 04:25:32 PM
Good video!  A little slow, but turning it up to 125% speed made that better.   ;)


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 12, 2019, 08:23:31 PM
The issues were largely training/experience and muscle memory issues.  Given that, I think being 1.21 seconds slower (or less) than designs that follow a more common manual of arms is pretty damned good.  I submit that if the shooters spent a weekend at a shooting class being familiarized with the MDR (and shooting it exclusively) the issue (mainly magazine location and in one case, locking the bolt open when charging the rifle) would be voided issues.

That said, I was surprised that the XCR did as well; I was expecting the Mk10 or SCAR to be top dog.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: ttarp on August 12, 2019, 09:11:39 PM
As forward thinking as the AR was back in the 50's, I'm not surprised at all that rifles designed within the last couple of decades(?) prove to be slightly faster/ergonomic.  Though the time in between the top 3 was pretty insignificant.  Neat video though, thanks for the heads up.  It would be pretty neat if they followed it up with the same test but with shooters who were proficient with each specific rifle.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 12, 2019, 10:03:41 PM
The issues were largely training/experience and muscle memory issues.  Given that, I think being 1.21 seconds slower (or less) than designs that follow a more common manual of arms is pretty damned good.  I submit that if the shooters spent a weekend at a shooting class being familiarized with the MDR (and shooting it exclusively) the issue (mainly magazine location and in one case, locking the bolt open when charging the rifle) would be voided issues.

That said, I was surprised that the XCR did as well; I was expecting the Mk10 or SCAR to be top dog.

Sure. But that wasnít the point of the video...this was about picking up a gun ďcold startĒ and see how good the ergos really were. I can run a FN SCAR faster than any other platform I own...but Iíve practiced a lot.

Canít wait to see what they have in store next.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 12, 2019, 10:07:55 PM
What good is it if there isn't any familiarization with the weapon beforehand?  Otherwise, it's just a way to make those rifles with familiar ergos look good.  Give each person half an hour to handle, dry fire, and reload using mags without followers and then run the drill; at least make it somewhat even.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 12, 2019, 10:36:39 PM
Defend till the end.....

Reasoning is easy. Do the ergo claims actually true or not...i think it was great to see...sorry the MDR didnít pan out as good as hoped.

Having owned two XCR-Ls...I can see why it won. All the controls are about perfect. Second to that is my ARX100/SCAR they operate very similarly...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 13, 2019, 12:58:12 AM
Must you always be so antagonistic? 

Give someone who is used to the AK manual of arms to the exclusion of the others and see what happens... thereís a good chance the list would be quite different.  Unless they took people who had zero experience with firearms, this isnít gong to show good results due to the shooters already having experience with a specific manual of arms. Iíd like to see it done with just bullpups.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: Zeiram3f on August 13, 2019, 01:15:07 AM
I believe the concept is grab and go. Ie, youíre using firearms for what the 2a was meant for - your rifle goes down and you pick up the dead guyís gun next to you - how long are you out of the fight for? Anyone can monkey around with kit and familiarize themselves with it. The point is to determine which platform is more ergonomic, intuitive, and flexible given the constraints. Bullpups being unusual to our western audience lends speed to magazine forward designs... but I can easily see where the other slow downs came into play.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 13, 2019, 09:26:27 AM
I believe the concept is grab and go. Ie, youíre using firearms for what the 2a was meant for - your rifle goes down and you pick up the dead guyís gun next to you - how long are you out of the fight for? Anyone can monkey around with kit and familiarize themselves with it. The point is to determine which platform is more ergonomic, intuitive, and flexible given the constraints. Bullpups being unusual to our western audience lends speed to magazine forward designs... but I can easily see where the other slow downs came into play.

Bingo...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 13, 2019, 09:30:48 AM
Must you always be so antagonistic?  

Give someone who is used to the AK manual of arms to the exclusion of the others and see what happens... thereís a good chance the list would be quite different.  Unless they took people who had zero experience with firearms, this isnít gong to show good results due to the shooters already having experience with a specific manual of arms. Iíd like to see it done with just bullpups.

No...you just don't get the point of this test...maybe you do...but because the MDR didn't fair well...you come cry wolf how it wasn't a level playing field...when it was...

I bet you money...that many of those people in the test...never fired, yet alone handled an XCR before...yet it did the best...

Thus...the test shows which platform truly had superior ergonomics design...without being familiar with a platform...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: EWTHeckman on August 13, 2019, 10:32:57 AM
No...you just don't get the point of this test...maybe you do...

 ::) ::) ::) ::)

Knock off the personal attacks and attempts at mind reading. It's exceedingly tiresome because it is toxic.

It seems to me that there are two interconnected issues in that test. There is the basic ergonomics issues (an easy to grab handle vs. a hard to grab handle for example) and which rifles were more similar to what those experienced shooters were already familiar with.

Karl made the latter point quite clear in their post testing analysis. That it was simply a bullpup caught several of those shooters off guard. They instinctively reached forward to insert the mag before remembering that it was behind the grip and correcting themselves. That would be an issue with any bullpup. I see the exact same thing with the Saab we recently bought. I still reach for the key in the steering column before remembering that it's between the seats. (That you use this as an excuse to bash the MDR is just another example of your toxic posting.)

The rock-n-lock magazines were a similar issue. Someone who is highly experienced with such magazine usage is always significantly faster at them than someone who is not. Watch GarandThumb do an AK reload for some amazing speed.

It's not a surprise that the rifle that "won" this test had controls that were the most similar to ARs and had very good ergonomics.

Hopefully one of the upcoming tests will repeat this test after the shooters have time to train on the various platforms to see how much of the speed differences is due to training and how much is in the inherent qualities of the rifles. Maybe they could even come up with a "general platform" test where they practice with a similar rifle (say an RDB or Tavor for bullpups and some rock-n-lock mag system) then try the test again to eliminate the "familiar control placement" phenomenon.

If their plan was always to do this test as well, it makes complete sense to do the "cold" test first.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 13, 2019, 10:51:36 AM
No...you just don't get the point of this test...maybe you do...

 ::) ::) ::) ::)

Knock off the personal attacks and attempts at mind reading. It's exceedingly tiresome because it is toxic.


Ok dad. Some of you sure do like to throw the "toxic" term like the left throws the racist term...get over yourself...

So it is ok for Kurt to call me a name such as antagonistic...but it is not ok for me to reply to that?!? Want to censor much....

Go be a dad to someone else...seriously...you guys amaze me how emotional you all get over the MDR...

It didn't fair well in an ergo test...get over it...you all act like its the best dang platform known to man and we should forget its faults when they are pointed out...

Hope it will fair better in the next tests...

Guess what...if it does...I will say great...I think the MDR will do better in accuracy testing...and potentially the mudtest....who knows...we shall see...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 13, 2019, 10:53:05 AM
Since they are doing multiple trials, a cold start with no time familiarize is totally fair. Given the cold start, it is no surprise that AR derivative rifles are on top; that's what today's shooters are familiar with. As the trials go on and the shooters get familiar with each rifle, there may be different results.

As a competitive shooter, what makes a good gun assuming 100% reliable and reasonably accurate is low recoil, good trigger, and fast magazine changes. It's no surprise that rock and lock magazines are slower without significant training.

As an engineer, I want to know how they are compiling the data. Especially for this stage, times are so low that I would consider 7% difference as insignificant and make it clear prior to revealing the results. How are they normalizing between shooters? They mentioned having an AR and AK baseline, are these used to normalized between shooter?



Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: EWTHeckman on August 13, 2019, 12:12:33 PM
Ok dad. Some of you sure do like to throw the "toxic" term like the left throws the racist term...get over yourself...

So it is ok for Kurt to call me a name such as antagonistic...but it is not ok for me to reply to that?!? Want to censor much....

Go be a dad to someone else...seriously...you guys amaze me how emotional you all get over the MDR...

It didn't fair well in an ergo test...get over it...you all act like its the best dang platform known to man and we should forget its faults when they are pointed out...

Hope it will fair better in the next tests...

Guess what...if it does...I will say great...I think the MDR will do better in accuracy testing...and potentially the mudtest....who knows...we shall see...

Awwww, poor baby. He called you "antagonistic" because you are. People don't like your bullying and constipated porcupine routine. Get over yourself.

If this forum had a block feature, you would be on my list so I could focus on discussing the guns.

Edit: I could have sworn InRange did mud test the MDR about a year ago using a borrowed MDR. I remember that they had a heck of a time cleaning it because they couldn't really get some of the crud out of the lower. But I can't seem to find it for some reason.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 13, 2019, 01:01:36 PM
See. You guys are ďallowedĒ to name call but we canít?!?

Some of you have two sets of rules and somehow that isnít ďtoxicĒ.

I didnít even post this in the MDR section but in general discussion so your little feelings didnít get hurt that the MDR wasnít the #1 in an ergo test and you guys are still white knighting DT and how this and that wasnít fair...you guys make it very evident that unless we praise the MDR everything else is toxic.

I could give one rip if you block me...donít really care.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: semper paratus on August 13, 2019, 01:31:09 PM
a few good points being made.

I bet 90% of all people that have shot a rifle at some point have fired or handled an AR type rifle.  That would definitely give an AR platform an advantage.

I could pull 10 people out of our field operations unit and I'd bet not one have even seen a Tavor let alone handle one.  Cold start -- pull a bunch of far left persons off the street and give them the test.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: EWTHeckman on August 13, 2019, 02:48:23 PM
…your little feelings didn’t get hurt …

Again with the outraged fake mind reading.

You're tiresome. Just shut up already.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 13, 2019, 03:07:33 PM
Öyour little feelings didnít get hurt Ö

Again with the outraged fake mind reading.

You're tiresome. Just shut up already.

See what I mean...double standards to the DT fanboys...love this forum...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: EWTHeckman on August 13, 2019, 03:15:28 PM
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 13, 2019, 06:53:18 PM
Must you always be so antagonistic? 

Give someone who is used to the AK manual of arms to the exclusion of the others and see what happens... thereís a good chance the list would be quite different.  Unless they took people who had zero experience with firearms, this isnít gong to show good results due to the shooters already having experience with a specific manual of arms. Iíd like to see it done with just bullpups.

No...you just don't get the point of this test...maybe you do...but because the MDR didn't fair well...you come cry wolf how it wasn't a level playing field...when it was...

I bet you money...that many of those people in the test...never fired, yet alone handled an XCR before...yet it did the best...

Thus...the test shows which platform truly had superior ergonomics design...without being familiar with a platform...

Actually, I do get the point of the test.  My issues with how it was presented isn't because the MDR came in fifth, it was because based on an average shooter pool, the vast majority of American shooters (who shoot this kind of rifle)will have experience with AR based ergonomics and operating principles and not those of rifles that use a rock-and-lock system or a bullpup of any design. 

The majority of time issues appeared to be magazine related, with the charging handle playing a role in on two mentions; the G3 pattern rifle because it was so far forward and the MDR when the one person accidentally locked it back.  Beyond that, it was a moot issue.

It was a cute test, but suffered from flaws and wasn't up to InRange's usual standards.  I hope the other tests are better.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: ttarp on August 13, 2019, 07:44:49 PM
If you're already holding the rifle(unlike the test), the G3 charging handle is in a pretty optimal position, right about your offhand.  The issue with is primarily the force required to operate it.  The more I think about it, the more predictable I find the results to be, especially the top and bottom 3 slots.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: BullpupT on August 13, 2019, 08:12:03 PM
 ;D :D ; :D D :D ;D :D    This thread has gotten very entertaining. Personal attacks should be encouraged as long as you donít cuss  :D :D

The double standard is apparent. Have we really gotten to the point were grown men are worried about ďpersonal attacksĒ? Stick and stones guys, stop eating soy and start eating more red meat. Worrying about personal attacks that arenít even directed at you is just weird. Itís like youíre trying to save a damsel in distress or something. Kurt is a grown man who can handle his own so called attacks.

Bunch of pansies, go find a safe space. You embody everything that is wrong in this world. Sticks and stones man... Sticks and stones. Didnít your momma teach you that song when you came in crying about someone calling you a name? I feel like Iím in the twilight zone.

The video itself was pretty interesting. I always liked Ian and inrange, heís just a regular dude who knows a hell of a lot about firearms. His knowledge definitely outweighs his shooting ability, but thatís why the is good. It shows how the average shooter would adapt to the different platforms. The in range guys are just regular shooters not pros.

Put couple different shooters in and the results would probably be different. I have a powerful lust for the scar 17s. I want one even more now after seeing the video even though it didnít place 1st.



Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 13, 2019, 08:30:45 PM
SCAR platform is awesome regardless if its 5.56 or 7.62...very reliable...accurate...just honestly a perfect rifle...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 13, 2019, 08:43:57 PM
It was a cute test, but suffered from flaws and wasn't up to InRange's usual standards.  I hope the other tests are better.

Quit it. That was a perfectly acceptable and informative test especially considering that they are doing a series of tests. Yes, the AR pattern rifles did better because people are familiar with them. InRange makes this point.

The first trial is just a simple, quick test. I'm more curious how they compile and normalize the data to make the comparison. Especially for a test with very low times.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 13, 2019, 11:16:13 PM
It was a cute test, but suffered from flaws and wasn't up to InRange's usual standards.  I hope the other tests are better.

Quit it. That was a perfectly acceptable and informative test especially considering that they are doing a series of tests. Yes, the AR pattern rifles did better because people are familiar with them. InRange makes this point.

The first trial is just a simple, quick test. I'm more curious how they compile and normalize the data to make the comparison. Especially for a test with very low times.

No.  Just because I hold a differing opinion doesn't give you the right to tell me to essentially sit down and shut up. 


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 13, 2019, 11:37:48 PM
Hahah. Yet you and other guys tell us to shut it...freakiní hypocrites.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 14, 2019, 12:09:14 AM
Please tell me where I have ever *told* someone to shut up.  Iíve urged civility, but never told someone to shut up and that they couldnít speak. 


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 14, 2019, 02:31:42 AM
It was a cute test, but suffered from flaws and wasn't up to InRange's usual standards.  I hope the other tests are better.

Quit it. That was a perfectly acceptable and informative test especially considering that they are doing a series of tests. Yes, the AR pattern rifles did better because people are familiar with them. InRange makes this point.

The first trial is just a simple, quick test. I'm more curious how they compile and normalize the data to make the comparison. Especially for a test with very low times.

No.  Just because I hold a differing opinion doesn't give you the right to tell me to essentially sit down and shut up. 

I have the freedom to say whatever the f*** I want including "sit down and shut up."

It's a fair video, but InRange ain't the world's premiere source of firearms knowledge. Get over the fact that the MDR scored so low because the average shooter doesn't know how to operate it.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 14, 2019, 12:34:41 PM
It's a fair video, but InRange ain't the world's premiere source of firearms knowledge. Get over the fact that the MDR scored so low because the average shooter doesn't know how to operate it.

Other than mentioning that I thought it did well being 1.21 seconds back from the winner and that I thought it could have done better with some familiarization, I really haven't said much about it, just their methodology.  You're the one who is seeing red and jumping to the conclusions, not me.

So...lighten up, Francis.


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: thehun on August 14, 2019, 01:28:56 PM
So...lighten up, Francis.

Please stop with the name calling...its really toxic...


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange
Post by: kfeltenberger on August 14, 2019, 04:02:51 PM
https://youtu.be/C6cxNR9ML8k (https://youtu.be/C6cxNR9ML8k)

  ;D :D ;)


Title: Re: .308 Battle Rifle Trials by InRange - Ergonomics
Post by: whiskey91lima on August 14, 2019, 07:48:44 PM
moved