BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor SAR & X-95 => Topic started by: whitetail on February 08, 2019, 08:25:21 PM



Title: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 08, 2019, 08:25:21 PM
I remember all the threads of people wanting the original round handguard, I know there are purists who are gonna be all "I only want the REAL thing" And then there are people who want a facsimile of it to do such things as a Integral suppressed model like the 9mm SMG variant has. Because I don't get very many replies to the threads I have posted on this project, and I'm wondering now as I get closer to it being done, how many people are Truly interested?


(https://i.imgur.com/eGGaxUL.jpg)

Here is what I have now, Still working on the side scallops, those are giving me the most trouble. Added Two Mlok slots to the 12 o clock position, this allows you to add a rail like the factory model. I have also added a single Mlok slot to the underside for a Vertical foregrip if one so desires, with the front lip I doubt you will be able to use a light or laser at this position (6 o-clock).

Final production model will be 3d printed out of carbon fiber reinforced nylon. This should hold up fine to 9mm heat, but I am not sure I would be able to guarantee it on a 5.56 to hold up to multiple mag dumps, Speaking of heat,  I will be adding a metal heatshield to the inside of these when final to resist heat and hopefully protect the handguard.

If anyone is really interested please, reply to this thread, my initial plans MAY be to have 10 produced.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Rastoff on February 09, 2019, 01:53:12 AM
As I've said previously, I think your work on this is truly amazing, quality work. I personally have no interest in the hand guard itself, but I love to watch the innovation.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: DubageL on February 09, 2019, 07:26:32 AM
Yes still interested.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: HBeretta on February 09, 2019, 12:05:45 PM
i'm interested...pm sent w/inquiry


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: BellatorInvictus on February 09, 2019, 09:01:05 PM
I know there are purists who are gonna be all "I only want the REAL thing"

If anyone is really interested please, reply to this thread, my initial plans MAY be to have 10 produced.

Guilty as charged--I'm a gun parts fundamentalist.  ::)

It isn't about being a purist--it's about being a realist. I don't want a 3d-printed handguard on a 5.56 rifle that I'll be shooting prone, in the dirt, in the hot sun, during training classes, hunting, etc. No 3D-printed plastic material will come close to the durability of the OEM polymer. If you're able to offer these injection-molded, then we'll have a different conversation.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Rastoff on February 10, 2019, 12:32:22 AM
No 3D-printed plastic material will come close to the durability of the OEM polymer. If you're able to offer these injection-molded, then we'll have a different conversation.
Don't be too quick to dismiss the capabilities of modern 3D printing. I was just at a conference and witnessed a carbon fiber impregnated nylon print that I wouldn't hesitate to put up against any molded part. Of course that material is a tad more expensive.

If printed on the right machine and with the right material, Mr. whitetail's part will hold up to all but the most severe treatment. Even so, this is not an easy print. Still, it can be good.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Hijeffrey95 on February 10, 2019, 01:47:33 AM
Im in for one


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: DubageL on February 10, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
The 3D printed material we are using on the aircraft parts is pretty impressive.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: pyroxide on February 10, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Very much interested, here.

BTW what is the inside diameter?


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: pyroxide on February 10, 2019, 12:24:04 PM
No 3D-printed plastic material will come close to the durability of the OEM polymer. If you're able to offer these injection-molded, then we'll have a different conversation.
Don't be too quick to dismiss the capabilities of modern 3D printing. I was just at a conference and witnessed a carbon fiber impregnated nylon print that I wouldn't hesitate to put up against any molded part. Of course that material is a tad more expensive.

If printed on the right machine and with the right material, Mr. whitetail's part will hold up to all but the most severe treatment. Even so, this is not an easy print. Still, it can be good.

There is no doubt Matterhackers NylonX is the perfect material for 3D printing of firearm parts.

The price isn't the problem. It's getting it to print right. A Garolite/Phenolic build plate works best for first layer adhesion. With all of this priced out, it's still very cheap to print stuff. The cost per part is still well under $30 to make.

I bought the stuff to print receivers with, but my entry-level printer had troubles, still. There are many variables in 3D printing, and mine had more with its open frame design and slow print speed.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: BellatorInvictus on February 10, 2019, 08:02:12 PM
I'm aware of the capabilities of 3D printers. I have one. 3D-printed parts can certainly be very durable, but I stand by my assertion than a 3D-printed version of this handguard will not come close to the OEM specs. Even printed in carbon-fiber impregnated nylon, it will not be as durable as the original. Injection molding provides a different molecular structure; 3D printing consists of numerous fused layers. It's like having one giant forged piece vs. a piece made of multiple sheets welded together. Both can be strong, but the forged piece is always stronger overall. I'm concerned about a handguard like this cracking along the print lines if it were dropped, but hey, go prove me wrong. If printed correctly, it might be durable enough for the average person. I won't stop pestering IWI until they release the originals, however. You could also use your developing design skills to create your own original handguard too...


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Rastoff on February 10, 2019, 11:55:04 PM
Clearly there are some printing methods you haven't seen. Just a few days ago I saw a printed part that I couldn't break and trust me, I tried.

What I find most curious is that you don't even want to see this part. If I can be printed, it can be molded. I would think you'd be super interested in seeing this one through. Oh well, I'm sure others will enjoy it.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: pyroxide on February 11, 2019, 07:13:50 AM
I'm aware of the capabilities of 3D printers. I have one. 3D-printed parts can certainly be very durable, but I stand by my assertion than a 3D-printed version of this handguard will not come close to the OEM specs. Even printed in carbon-fiber impregnated nylon, it will not be as durable as the original. Injection molding provides a different molecular structure; 3D printing consists of numerous fused layers. It's like having one giant forged piece vs. a piece made of multiple sheets welded together. Both can be strong, but the forged piece is always stronger overall. I'm concerned about a handguard like this cracking along the print lines if it were dropped, but hey, go prove me wrong. If printed correctly, it might be durable enough for the average person. I won't stop pestering IWI until they release the originals, however. You could also use your developing design skills to create your own original handguard too...

Delamination happens because of a temperature differential in the layers, and is avoidable with a good printer.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: konigstigerii on February 11, 2019, 01:23:38 PM
I think 3d printed parts is misunderstood. Most people are familiar with the inexpensive ones that most people buy to make stupid s***. There are a huge range of 3d printing capabilities....Companies are making 3d printed silencers, and companies like Nexus tactical have been making handguards for the ACR, that have withstood competition use and full auto use. I've had parts printed, such as gas pistons for the X95 and gas blocks...along with some hand guards and other small parts such as safeties for the ACR.

I think the handguard is cool. If I get around to buying a 9mm conversion kit and SBR my X95 I would buy one, but it wouldn't be for a long time as I have other projects I'm working on :)
 


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 11, 2019, 07:51:10 PM
Very much interested, here.

BTW what is the inside diameter?

If I remember correctly, its 2" diameter.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 11, 2019, 07:52:28 PM
I'm aware of the capabilities of 3D printers. I have one. 3D-printed parts can certainly be very durable, but I stand by my assertion than a 3D-printed version of this handguard will not come close to the OEM specs. Even printed in carbon-fiber impregnated nylon, it will not be as durable as the original. Injection molding provides a different molecular structure; 3D printing consists of numerous fused layers. It's like having one giant forged piece vs. a piece made of multiple sheets welded together. Both can be strong, but the forged piece is always stronger overall. I'm concerned about a handguard like this cracking along the print lines if it were dropped, but hey, go prove me wrong. If printed correctly, it might be durable enough for the average person. I won't stop pestering IWI until they release the originals, however. You could also use your developing design skills to create your own original handguard too...

As you can see I've already slightly deviated by going with Mlok slots in the top and bottom. I have some ideas for a custom handguard for those guys with 16" guns as soon as I get this complete, and the back half fitting 100% So I can model the new front end.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: HBeretta on February 12, 2019, 11:24:26 PM
I'm aware of the capabilities of 3D printers. I have one. 3D-printed parts can certainly be very durable, but I stand by my assertion than a 3D-printed version of this handguard will not come close to the OEM specs. Even printed in carbon-fiber impregnated nylon, it will not be as durable as the original. Injection molding provides a different molecular structure; 3D printing consists of numerous fused layers. It's like having one giant forged piece vs. a piece made of multiple sheets welded together. Both can be strong, but the forged piece is always stronger overall. I'm concerned about a handguard like this cracking along the print lines if it were dropped, but hey, go prove me wrong. If printed correctly, it might be durable enough for the average person. I won't stop pestering IWI until they release the originals, however. You could also use your developing design skills to create your own original handguard too...

lol...dude where does the OP specify for those not interested in a CUSTOM<>non-oem handguard project....post here?  you'll never see oem ever here and i doubt you're traversing the harshest of environments here with you're gun.  get behind this dude instead of doubting 3d printed substrates that'll likely withstand more than your gun will ever go through at the range.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 16, 2019, 06:25:56 AM
See post below.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 16, 2019, 06:28:11 AM
Heres the pics of what I sent to print, the scallop isn't the same as the factory handguard, however it gives you a ledge for your thumb to go on. Just realized I posted a pic twice, and apparently the site editor wont allow me to remove pics.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: DubageL on February 16, 2019, 06:52:28 AM
Looks awesome!!!  Iíve been toying around in my head how to make the front close out disk for the 5.56 barrel. Eventually like everything else, the IDF will surplus those round handguards. It may be 10+ years and they will be worn, but itíll happen.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 16, 2019, 08:26:56 AM
Looks awesome!!!  Iíve been toying around in my head how to make the front close out disk for the 5.56 barrel. Eventually like everything else, the IDF will surplus those round handguards. It may be 10+ years and they will be worn, but itíll happen.

I have been told by someone in the know that they were all thrown into dumpsters by the box full.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: BellatorInvictus on February 16, 2019, 09:00:52 PM
lol...dude where does the OP specify for those not interested in a CUSTOM<>non-oem handguard project....post here?  you'll never see oem ever here and i doubt you're traversing the harshest of environments here with you're gun.  get behind this dude instead of doubting 3d printed substrates that'll likely withstand more than your gun will ever go through at the range.

Don't presume to know where/how I use my firearms. I don't want an equipment failure anywhere--whether that be in a class, on a hunt, at the range, at home, etc. The "purist" comment is what prompted my participation in this thread. I felt like I was personally being called out on that one.

I started the petition thread to IWI here a few years ago. People know I want these handguards as badly as anyone else. But I'm not going to settle for something just because it looks similar. Whitetail's design is coming along well, but I hope that he considers a different manufacturing process. Also, there are details to the handguard that you can improve, Whitetail. There are ways of designing that scallop on the side. You're also missing the tabs for the front sight post and holes for screws here and there. Keep going and eventually you'll have a very close replica.

I just find this whole situation with IWI extremely strange. At first, IWI told us to relax and that they were getting some of these in. Then nothing. Then fast forward a couple years and "oh, that's being discontinued." Now Whitetail is saying they've been throwing out the remaining inventory of these that they have? Excuse for me being skeptical, but who is your source there, Whitetail? That makes ZERO sense to throw them out. What, is there some conspiracy going on over at IWI IL to rid the world of the round X95 handguards? To frustrate us Americans? I mean, if they're moving to the newer style with rails, why not at least keep these around because they allow integral suppression, which the new ones don't? If they're going to throw things out, why don't they throw out all the original TAR-21s too, since they're using the X95s now?


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: BellatorInvictus on February 16, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
lol...dude where does the OP specify for those not interested in a CUSTOM<>non-oem handguard project....post here?  you'll never see oem ever here and i doubt you're traversing the harshest of environments here with you're gun.  get behind this dude instead of doubting 3d printed substrates that'll likely withstand more than your gun will ever go through at the range.

One other thing--this isn't just a custom handguard. It's a REPLICA of the OEM IWI round handguard. It's not like I just dropped in out of the blue to rain on some guy's parade who is designing his own original handguard for the X95. I've been hoping for an X95 with this handguard since before IWI even announced they'd be selling X95s in the U.S. Obviously, when someone comes along trying to make a replica of it, I'm going to be paying attention.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: pyroxide on February 17, 2019, 07:45:19 AM
One other thing--this isn't just a custom handguard. It's a REPLICA of the OEM IWI round handguard. It's not like I just dropped in out of the blue to rain on some guy's parade who is designing his own original handguard for the X95. I've been hoping for an X95 with this handguard since before IWI even announced they'd be selling X95s in the U.S. Obviously, when someone comes along trying to make a replica of it, I'm going to be paying attention.
From what I've seen in this thread, people find the 3D printing process satisfactory. I, similarly, would prefer a stronger product, but as long as it serves a purpose and is functional, it is fine with me. I would like to see the models released, especially since whitetail's objective is only to produce a few. This way, someone could potentially make another on the off chance that he or she breaks it.

However, I don't like the idea of the using an M-LOK rail on the top of any handguard. My modelling skills are good enough to change that, but I have yet to see a handguard for an AR that only has M-LOK rails and no 1913 Picatinny on the top. Perhaps the justification is because a mounted front BUI wouldn't stay zero. But who in their right mind would think otherwise? I also think the front hand stop is less than pleasing to the eye and would rather see a full length Picatinny or M-LOK rail on the bottom to allow the most versatility in choice and position of VFGs. That's just me, though.

I have faith that the end result will be well-received regardless of my suggestions.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 17, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
lol...dude where does the OP specify for those not interested in a CUSTOM<>non-oem handguard project....post here?  you'll never see oem ever here and i doubt you're traversing the harshest of environments here with you're gun.  get behind this dude instead of doubting 3d printed substrates that'll likely withstand more than your gun will ever go through at the range.

Don't presume to know where/how I use my firearms. I don't want an equipment failure anywhere--whether that be in a class, on a hunt, at the range, at home, etc. The "purist" comment is what prompted my participation in this thread. I felt like I was personally being called out on that one.

I started the petition thread to IWI here a few years ago. People know I want these handguards as badly as anyone else. But I'm not going to settle for something just because it looks similar. Whitetail's design is coming along well, but I hope that he considers a different manufacturing process. Also, there are details to the handguard that you can improve, Whitetail. There are ways of designing that scallop on the side. You're also missing the tabs for the front sight post and holes for screws here and there. Keep going and eventually you'll have a very close replica.

I just find this whole situation with IWI extremely strange. At first, IWI told us to relax and that they were getting some of these in. Then nothing. Then fast forward a couple years and "oh, that's being discontinued." Now Whitetail is saying they've been throwing out the remaining inventory of these that they have? Excuse for me being skeptical, but who is your source there, Whitetail? That makes ZERO sense to throw them out. What, is there some conspiracy going on over at IWI IL to rid the world of the round X95 handguards? To frustrate us Americans? I mean, if they're moving to the newer style with rails, why not at least keep these around because they allow integral suppression, which the new ones don't? If they're going to throw things out, why don't they throw out all the original TAR-21s too, since they're using the X95s now?

The source of that info was an IDF soldier, who was involved in throwing boxes of them into a dumpster.
I mean, even Jeremy who went to ISI israel from IWI us wasnt able to get them to bring into the US.

I leff the front sight assembly out of this because, what are you going to use as a rear sight, on the IDf models its mounted very low it seems from the collection of photos i have grabbed, or is being used as a front anchor for the Top rail, or is being blocked by an optic. I’m using a gearhead top rail so the front sight assembly isnt very useful to me. As i said i started out to make a clone of it, and its slowly turned into my own vision of a modernized version. With the Mlok attachment points, but keeping that round handguard Aesthetic, and allowing me to build a copy of the X95 Suppressed SMG. Which is why i omitted the front barrel enclosure as well.

Btw, the carbon fiber reinforced nylon filament i plan on having it printed out of is used by a gwntlemen to make rails and tailhook adapters, which see a good bit of abuse i would assume.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: DubageL on February 17, 2019, 12:25:12 PM
With using the M-lock, you can also still get a 1913 pic-rail section and just attach to the handguard. Personally, I would have FedExed the stuff tossed in the garbage bin to the US. Lol


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 17, 2019, 02:16:16 PM
With using the M-lock, you can also still get a 1913 pic-rail section and just attach to the handguard. Personally, I would have FedExed the stuff tossed in the garbage bin to the US. Lol

Having Mlok ontop allows you to use a pic rail, just like the idf model having a rail section up top, one single slot intended dor a Magpul MVG is on the bottom.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: BellatorInvictus on February 17, 2019, 08:11:35 PM

The source of that info was an IDF soldier, who was involved in throwing boxes of them into a dumpster.
I mean, even Jeremy who went to ISI israel from IWI us wasnt able to get them to bring into the US.

I leff the front sight assembly out of this because, what are you going to use as a rear sight, on the IDf models its mounted very low it seems from the collection of photos i have grabbed, or is being used as a front anchor for the Top rail, or is being blocked by an optic. Iím using a gearhead top rail so the front sight assembly isnt very useful to me. As i said i started out to make a clone of it, and its slowly turned into my own vision of a modernized version. With the Mlok attachment points, but keeping that round handguard Aesthetic, and allowing me to build a copy of the X95 Suppressed SMG. Which is why i omitted the front barrel enclosure as well.

Btw, the carbon fiber reinforced nylon filament i plan on having it printed out of is used by a gwntlemen to make rails and tailhook adapters, which see a good bit of abuse i would assume.


You have a friend in the IDF? I guess he didn't have a choice to salvage them? Surely he has to know that these things would fetch quite a price. I thought someone here said the IDF basically never throws things away. It just doesn't make any sense...

I don't know the Jeremy you speak of, but IWI US was able to get at least some round handguards from Israel. There is proof of that if you watch Colion Noir's video shooting the .300 Blackout X95, as well as Larry Vicker's video on the X95. I just wish I knew what the big deal is about getting us more of the original IDF-style parts. They did that with the original SAR at least, even if it was missing the paracord sling loop.

I have an IDF gas block on my X95 with built-in rear sight, so I'd be able to use the front sight to work with that. You could include the tabs for a proper look, even if you don't plan to mount a front sight there, but if you're moving towards tweaking it overall with more elements of your own design, then hey, the sky is the limit there.

I simply refuse to give up on IWI. If two years from now--2021, IWI still refuses to sell these to us, I will design a replica and have it injection molded myself. I want to give them time to do it because it would be a lot of design and machining work on my end, and I'd rather just have the real thing. But as a last resort, I will not hesitate to do that. I'll find a way to get this thing done eventually.

Anyway, I won't be posting here any more so as to not further derail Whitetail's thread/distract from his work.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Rastoff on February 17, 2019, 09:56:00 PM
You have a friend in the IDF? I guess he didn't have a choice to salvage them? Surely he has to know that these things would fetch quite a price.
I don't know how the IDF works, but in the US military you can go to prison for using government assets for personal gain. Yes, even if you take them out of the trash. So, maybe his contact did know that they were valuable, but valued his career more than a few dollars.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 22, 2019, 08:06:30 AM
So, this has gone through quite a few revisions as you can see in the thread here, but i have gotten almost to the end, this is nearly the final version, and iím kinda glad, now i was still having issues with the tab fitting, and it didnt fit on this one so in the pic where its on the gun if you look closely i had to cut the tab off, but i did a quick and dirty print last night with the tab moved and Got it in position, so a bit of shaping the bottom tonight and we should be in business.

This handguard is 100% more comfortable than the factory one. Its very ergonomic versus the square handguard and i dont even feel the need to use a VFG on it, but there is an Mlok slot if you want too.

(https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/49519/823A0513-D876-470A-A29C-049A6D492C84_jpeg-853946.JPG)(https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/49519/A998C249-5E93-40D0-85E5-A1DBE8B5C690_jpeg-853947.JPG)(https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/49519/396674EF-880A-425A-A51C-9FA7388EC806_jpeg-853948.JPG)(https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/49519/FFE6E095-2A87-4E2E-B998-753D5D328539_jpeg-853949.JPG)


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: DubageL on February 22, 2019, 10:32:45 AM
Nice!!! Doing my sbr trust today. The fronts indexed to work with the factory 5.56 short barrel so the flash hider wonít be enclosed inside of it?


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 22, 2019, 10:58:22 AM
Nice!!! Doing my sbr trust today. The fronts indexed to work with the factory 5.56 short barrel so the flash hider wonít be enclosed inside of it?

i have to shorten it just a bit as i found out it extends a bit over the FH. The othwr issue is that iím not sure how hot 9mm or 5.56 gets i have to do some temperature tests to see how hot the barrels do get.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Rastoff on February 22, 2019, 11:56:22 AM
Looking good!


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: RebellionOnIce on February 22, 2019, 08:02:57 PM
You got skillz! Turned out great.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 22, 2019, 08:56:39 PM
Btw, it feels super comfortable in the hand.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: HBeretta on February 23, 2019, 12:44:17 AM
nice job man.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Rastoff on February 23, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
Did you print it as one piece? If so, you might consider printing the tab as a separate piece and attaching it afterward. I think the tab part would benefit from printing in a different direction.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 23, 2019, 11:47:10 AM
Did you print it as one piece? If so, you might consider printing the tab as a separate piece and attaching it afterward. I think the tab part would benefit from printing in a different direction.

All one piece, i finally got the tab location correct however.


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: Hijeffrey95 on February 24, 2019, 04:15:16 AM
Would it be possible to take a round handguard off a airsoft X95 and put that on a real X95? The plastic probably couldnt handle the heat but do they attach the same way?


Title: Re: So, Round handguard project, is anyone even interested?
Post by: whitetail on February 24, 2019, 12:01:34 PM
Would it be possible to take a round handguard off a airsoft X95 and put that on a real X95? The plastic probably couldnt handle the heat but do they attach the same way?

The only airsoft X95 has a handguard that is molded as part pf the body.