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Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => IWI Tavor SAR & X-95 => Topic started by: tatal011 on December 24, 2018, 09:00:38 PM



Title: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: tatal011 on December 24, 2018, 09:00:38 PM
Dear SAR/X95 owners,
Very recently I acquired Tavor SAR 16" in FDE from a close friend that was original owner. I believe that rifle did not have more than 100 to 200 rounds max  through it, and it was mostly kept in the bag. Yesterday, I disassembled it for detailed cleaning, and I found some marking/wear on under side of the piston/recoil mechanism. Are these markings something normal that occur during rifle use, or is it some kind of excessive (abnormal) wear ? I am attaching few pics for better description (white arrows point to markings/wear area of recoil mechanism).
Beside this issue whole rifle looks and shoots like a dream.
Thanks


Title: Re: Normal Wear or else
Post by: thehun on December 24, 2018, 09:27:05 PM
100% normal.


Title: Re: Normal Wear or else
Post by: tatal011 on December 24, 2018, 10:35:08 PM
Thank you for your reply. I am more concerned about 3 long abrasions on piston under side (left arrow) than anything else. What can be the cause of it since it is barely used rifle? Does anyone else have similar wear on their Tavors?


Title: Re: Normal Wear or else
Post by: Josefius on December 25, 2018, 02:53:25 AM
I do on my Tavor X95.


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Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: thehun on December 25, 2018, 07:00:37 PM
Mine does too...it is just rubbing ever so slightly on the inner gas tube cover...


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: Rastoff on December 26, 2018, 03:03:39 PM
Sorry, I have the X95. I commented before I realized this was a SAR. Sorry.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: tatal011 on December 31, 2018, 10:05:50 PM
Sorry, I have the X95. I commented before I realized this was a SAR. Sorry.

Hi Rastoff, what was your comment about anyway? Thanks


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: Rastoff on December 31, 2018, 10:17:09 PM
OK, I was saying that I don't see that same wear on my piston. Even though the two guns are very close, it's not a fair comparison considering the different platforms.

I will say this though, I see a lot of people asking this exact same question about some wear they see on their new gun. 99.999% of the time it's normal wear from two parts rubbing a little bit. If the piston on your gun were not coated with some black coloring, we would not be having this conversation because you wouldn't have noticed the wear at all.

My point is, gouges are a problem. Bent parts are a problem. The action not cycling or not ejecting the casing is a problem. Loose parts or gaps where they shouldn't be could be a problem, but most of the time aren't. These guns are not designed to be a precision or heirloom piece. They were intended to be easy to operate and maintain. They were built with loose tolerances on purpose for parts interchangeability and sure functioning.

You will find more wear marks and have more concerns about fit and finish. Most of those will just be part of normal function. By all means, come here and ask about those things. We'll be more than happy to help you learn as much as you can about this marvelous gun. Just rest assured that as long as the gun keeps firing and cycling properly, it's probably working as intended.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: tatal011 on January 01, 2019, 12:36:49 AM
Rastoff, thank you so much for excellent explanation. I agree with everything you said. I am worried because I love my Tavor and I was saving for a long time to buy this amazing rifle. I just want it to work and look good (both externally and even more internally). I know that some wear is normal with time and use,  but I was concerned that it happened too soon.
I have to ask what is probably going to seems like a stupid question. How come that some people experience wear on certain parts or places while others don't, since the rifle comes from the same factory,  have the same parts and functions in the same way?
I am grateful for all your inputs and advice.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: cciman on January 01, 2019, 02:21:34 AM
...Because the final product is made by aggregating a collection of parts together that are not individually fitted to each other.  Every gun is different.

The components are close enough, but final fitting comes through usage/wear - parts that rub together ultimately will meet that happy medium where they fit perfectly.   Your "wear" pattern is normal, and likely self limited after reaching a certain point.

Go shoot it.  If it functions normally, keep shooting it.

I see this OCD phenomena in Glock forum where new users go over the gun endlessly with a microscope and fixate on every little perceived defect.  It will not stay perfect unless you wrap it and put it away in storage.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: tatal011 on January 01, 2019, 11:35:22 AM
Thank you Cciman and Happy New Year to all of you great helping people on Bullpup forum


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: boscoman on January 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
The Tavor is a combat rifle that as the good people at IWI say is meant to be treated roughly. They tend to laugh at us when we baby these rifles.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: Rastoff on January 01, 2019, 03:22:31 PM
Yep, cciman has it right. Any product made by any company anywhere will have variations in manufacturing. Nothing is absolute and everything has a tolerance. As parts are built, the tools used to make those parts wear. As they wear, the parts are going to be just a little different.

Eventually the tools will wear to a point that they need to be replaced. The part that was made first and the part that was made last will not be the same size, but they should be close enough to function properly.

There is a thing called tolerance stacking. This is a phenomena that happens when parts are made on different tools. For example, you have a hole that is 1" and a 1" rod for that hole. Each part has a tolerance of +/-.05" in diameter. If the hole is made and is at it's upper limit, it will be 1.05" big. If the rod is made at it's lower limit, it will be .95" in diameter. As you can see, these parts will fit together. However, if the hold is at the small end, .95" and the rod is at the large end, 1.05", then they won't fit.

Manufactures are not idiots and understand the tolerance stacking and plan for it. Even so, there can still be issues. Instead of a hole that is 1" +/-.05", they set the tolerances like this; 1" +.06", -0" and the rod would be .99" +0", -.04" diameter. By doing this they ensure the parts will always fit. Even so, if the hole is made at the smallest dimension and the rod at the largest, the fit will be tight, but work. If the hole is made at the largest and the rod at the smallest, they will fit a little loose, but still work.

This is what's happened with your gun vs mine. Your piston and the frame are closer in tolerance than mine. Therefore, yours show just a tiny bit more wear than mine. Both are in tolerance and function perfectly.

All moving parts will show wear. The initial wear is just removing some coating. What you see now is after a few hundred rounds. I'll bet it looks exactly the same after a few thousand rounds.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: tatal011 on January 01, 2019, 08:34:37 PM
Rastoff, that is very detailed and scientific explanation. Thank you and Happy new Year


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: DubageL on January 02, 2019, 08:37:24 AM
The only thing Id recommend would be an initial complete detailed strip, disassembly and clean. Remove the factory preservative that is EVERYWHERE and upon initial inspection looks like a thin lubricant film that is actually a preservative that gets tacky and attracts dirt once the gun gets warm. Remove the handguard, and top rail so you can get the barrel and gas system exterior. Clean off everything, barrel, chamber, gas system, bolt, carrier, piston front spring opening area, and including the receiver interior metal subframe and trigger pack with a low or zero residue contact cleaner like electronics cleaner, via flushing and wiping with wet patches and swabs. Then use a good thick gun oil to wipe all the metal down and run the gun really wet a bit. After that just do a wipe down and normal cleaning, most of the stuff will pretty much wipe off.



Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: tatal011 on January 04, 2019, 10:09:41 PM
Hi Dubagel,
I was told by IWI Customer/Technical service that preservative that comes with brand new Tavors is Cosmoline. According to them many of their customers do not want to remove it, since it has great protective and lubrication properties. I personally like to do detailed cleaning/lubrication after I buy new toy, and after every single range time.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: Rastoff on January 05, 2019, 01:07:22 AM
Do a field strip after every range trip, but a detail strip is too much. You actually run a risk of damaging something by doing a detail strip too often.

Also, there's no need to clean the bore every time. It's better for the bore to clean it only every 500 rounds or so.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: cciman on January 05, 2019, 05:14:08 PM
Let the cleaning debates begin.

Wear on your parts is not caused by cleaning, or not cleaning.  Cleaning may actually accelerate wear, and is more psychological on the part of the owner, than what is really needed by the tool.

Best NOT to have any lubricant residue on, or near, your piston parts-- keep it native, even if it is dirty.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: tatal011 on January 07, 2019, 08:13:45 AM
Good morning all,
Last time I talked to good peple from IWI (related to wear I posted here), I was told to keep very thin layer of CLP on whole BCG/recoil mechanism.
I am aware that are two "schools" of idea about lubrication on these parts. One says keep it dry and even that any lubrication residue can damage/hurt function. And other school that little bit of lubrication will be beneficial and protective.
I personally like to keep my toys just a tiny bit moist for the lack of better word.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: thehun on January 07, 2019, 10:03:27 AM
I put a light coat on everything while I clean the barrel...once all is done...I wipe it off and lub at the points outlined in the manual.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: Halmbarte on January 07, 2019, 10:55:21 PM
About the gas piston thing, I did an informal test a while back.

First we have the gas piston from a Steyr AUG as removed when the gas system wasn't lubricated between shooting sessions. Total of about 100 rounds fired over 3 shooting sessions.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sCbvGxjjyyQ/UtniQkcznvI/AAAAAAAAG_w/C7GEcAlpqmE/w950-h379-no/IMG_0974.JPG)

This is the same gas piston after rubbing with a dry soft cloth. No solvent of any type was used to clean it.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ljIkp2NUhCM/UtniSdrfbwI/AAAAAAAAHAI/q6-jqItiKms/w681-h273-no/IMG_0976.JPG)

Next is the gas piston after adding 1 drop of oil* to the gas piston after each shooting session. About 120 rounds fired in 3 shooting sessions. The piston wasn't removed to apply oil, I just did one drop on the face of the piston. The oil has crept over the entire surface of the gas piston and the whole thing is oily.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F5k_fPGN_Qs/UtniOQYEmnI/AAAAAAAAG-o/e_iFM8NWvZQ/w680-h208-no/IMG_0965.JPG)

This is the same gas piston after rubbing with a dry soft cloth. No solvent of any type was used to clean it.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rTaOQMObBug/UtniPiQubrI/AAAAAAAAG_Q/_nke5IN_RkU/w557-h626-no/IMG_0969.JPG)

There wasn't appreciably more carbon on the piston after applying oil and then shooting it. What carbon there was was much easier to remove after it had the oil on it.

H

*Aeroshell Fluid 18


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: cciman on January 08, 2019, 12:28:04 PM

Interesting, food for thought.

100-120 rounds is about 3-4 mags of ammo.
Carbine Classes I have taken: we were minimally using that amount of ammo up at least every 2 hours, for 8-12 hours, without weapon cleaning.  Daily for 2-5 days.

Both the flash points and "burning" temps referenced for cooking oil and motor oil are similar...  in the 450F-500F degree range for burning, 250-280F for smoke point.

I cook primarily with canola oil in cast iron pans, and they do not shine after wiping off with a cloth.  Those pans have never been shiny.  The avr surface temps reached (measured with infrared temp sensor, with burners on) before the oil starts to smoke is about 350F.   I have put a "greased pan" in the weber and turned up the burners, and the heat burned the oil completely off, without visual addition to the conditioning.

Put a drop of your favorite gun oil on your exhaust manifold or tail pipe, next to a drop of motor oil, watch the behavior when the car is turned on.




Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: whiskey91lima on January 08, 2019, 01:10:14 PM

Interesting, food for thought.

100-120 rounds is about 3-4 mags of ammo.
Carbine Classes I have taken: we were minimally using that amount of ammo up at least every 2 hours, for 8-12 hours, without weapon cleaning.  Daily for 2-5 days.

Both the flash points and "burning" temps referenced for cooking oil and motor oil are similar...  in the 450F-500F degree range for burning, 250-280F for smoke point.

I cook primarily with canola oil in cast iron pans, and they do not shine after wiping off with a cloth.  Those pans have never been shiny.  The avr surface temps reached (measured with infrared temp sensor, with burners on) before the oil starts to smoke is about 350F.   I have put a "greased pan" in the weber and turned up the burners, and the heat burned the oil completely off, without visual addition to the conditioning.

Put a drop of your favorite gun oil on your exhaust manifold or tail pipe, next to a drop of motor oil, watch the behavior when the car is turned on.


So use canola oil or motor oil for gun lubrication?

In my experience, FireClean (canola oil) and FrogLube (coconut oil) actually work quite well as gun lube particularly for carbon fowling. I have switched back to CLP (carbon fowling) and white lithium grease (non-carbon fowling parts of my gun) for the arguments that organic oils breakdown over time and have lower flash points. I also take the approach of cleaning with CLP and wiping down the parts as much as possible. The idea is to let the oil soak into the pores of the metal rather than coat the surface. I've had failures from carbon gumming up in excessive oil (the striker channel in my P320 had it worst to the point that it only would run dry).


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: thehun on January 08, 2019, 03:15:41 PM
Slip2000 EWL is my go to all around lubricant...it also gently cleans...carbon doesn't stick and it doesn't run off like some lubs.


Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: cciman on January 08, 2019, 06:32:01 PM


So use canola oil or motor oil for gun lubrication?


That is not the intention of my post, I was not in favor of any specific oil or lubricant.  Really I was addressing (giving perspective) whether or not to put any lubricant on the piston, which the post prior to mine was advocating.  I would be concerned about putting any liquid/gel material that has the potential to carbonize or leave additional residues at 350F.





Title: Re: Tavor SAR - Normal Wear or else after only 100 rounds or so?
Post by: Halmbarte on January 08, 2019, 08:50:36 PM


So use canola oil or motor oil for gun lubrication?


That is not the intention of my post, I was not in favor of any specific oil or lubricant.  Really I was addressing (giving perspective) whether or not to put any lubricant on the piston, which the post prior to mine was advocating.  I would be concerned about putting any liquid/gel material that has the potential to carbonize or leave additional residues at 350F.

The point I was attempting to make was that the added gun oil does burn off after firing. By adding the oil after firing the carbon fouling wipes off better* when you do get around to cleaning. The burnt oil doesn't seem to add a significant amount of carbon compared to the powder fouling.

In the end it probably doesn't seem to matter a whole lot.

H

*Hard chrome helps here.