BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => Desert Tech MDR => Topic started by: Heathsrow on May 16, 2018, 07:56:38 PM



Title: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Heathsrow on May 16, 2018, 07:56:38 PM
The new six hole gas valve is live on Desert Techs website (https://deserttech.com/parts.php?item=2385). $49.99 until June 30, then it raises to $79.99 with the exception of individuals on preorder who will have 30 days to buy it at the $49.99 rate! Can't wait to try it in my MDR.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: patrick711 on May 16, 2018, 08:42:46 PM
This is so sadly ridiculous, MDR's ripping brass an all kinds of issues an DT has the greed to charge for a part that probably should have been installed on every gun out the door so far. That is a big spoon of salt in the wounds of every customer that is having issues. 


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Heathsrow on May 16, 2018, 08:47:20 PM
For those of us who arenít having issues, this is a welcome addition!! I feel for those who are having issues, but I am enjoying my MDR and canít wait to get the 5.56 or 300 BLK conversion!!


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on May 16, 2018, 08:49:18 PM
This is something that should have been a "swap old for new" part.  Very, very disappointed.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 16, 2018, 09:15:59 PM
Told you guys this was going to happen.

Unfortunately Iíve been burned by greedy business practices. This is one of them.

Knowing all the gas problems documented so far should have this as a free replacement to all MDRs prior to this updated gas valve...then ALL new MDRs should have these installed prior to leaving to end user.

Pathetic DT. You fail. You could have made people happy that stood by you for the past 4 years and now you know you have a broken system and try to extort more dollars from you loyal fans.

This part shouldnít be for sale...this part should be a standard part.

 >:( >:( >:(


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on May 16, 2018, 09:18:40 PM
This is so sadly ridiculous, MDR's ripping brass an all kinds of issues an DT has the greed to charge for a part that probably should have been installed on every gun out the door so far. That is a big spoon of salt in the wounds of every customer that is having issues. 

First reaction :D Yay, about time

Reads further $49.99  >:(

Considering all new rifles will probably ship with this 6 pos plug, charging pre-order loyalist for something you fked up is just low...


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Ditcher on May 16, 2018, 09:20:23 PM
Off MDR website

Description
New 6-position gas valve kit allows for a wider range of gas adjustments of the MDR for reliable functioning as well as accommodating a wider selection of suppressors currently on the market. Kit includes valve, coiled spring pin, gas knob detent spring, and gas knob detent. Valve will come with piston ring installed.

One can't help but noticed the part were it says "for reliable functioning".
So they know the MDR isn't reliable and want to charge you to make it reliable?   I'm I missing something here?
This should be included with all new rifles along with a exchange programe for those who already have their mdr/mds's.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 16, 2018, 09:26:02 PM
What is going to be total sad is when people buy this gas plug and the rifle will still choke because of improper tolerance stacking.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Zeiram3f on May 16, 2018, 09:35:55 PM
Agreed - why charge us for something that should have been included in the first place? I remember Kel Tec sending me ďthe correctĒ piston when my RFB had one that was over gassing the rifle. Sent an email and photo - 5 days later I had a piston in my mailbox.

Iím still waiting for the warranty department to contact me back as well. Another area Kel Tec was faster with. I will say that I understand that DT is likely backlogged with customer complaints at the moment, especially with their team offsite at their recent convention. At this point Iíd rather just sell the rifle back to DT and move on.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on May 16, 2018, 09:36:19 PM
What is going to be total sad is when people buy this gas plug and the rifle will still choke because of improper tolerance stacking.

I have two weeks of vacation in July...I'll roadtrip to Utah if necessary to get mine fixed if they don't work.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 16, 2018, 09:47:16 PM
Agreed - why charge us for something that should have been included in the first place? I remember Kel Tec sending me ďthe correctĒ piston when my RFB had one that was over gassing the rifle. Sent an email and photo - 5 days later I had a piston in my mailbox.

Iím still waiting for the warranty department to contact me back as well. Another area Kel Tec was faster with. I will say that I understand that DT is likely backlogged with customer complaints at the moment, especially with their team offsite at their recent convention. At this point Iíd rather just sell the rifle back to DT and move on.

Chances of DT buying back your MDR is slim. You might as well just sell it on the used market.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 16, 2018, 09:48:04 PM
What is going to be total sad is when people buy this gas plug and the rifle will still choke because of improper tolerance stacking.

I have two weeks of vacation in July...I'll roadtrip to Utah if necessary to get mine fixed if they don't work.

If you do this. I want a live broadcast when you walk in to drop them off for warranty service.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Zeiram3f on May 16, 2018, 09:51:03 PM
Hah. I know they wouldnít take it back. The used market isnít moving either, because everyone knows these things are a roll of the dice. The best offer Iíve seen so far is $2000 for the rifle, suppressor handguard and some mags. Only low ball offers so far.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: rtp on May 16, 2018, 09:58:18 PM
Maybe we can trade our GB 'will be taken care of' t-shirts even for one?

Ooh, wait...never saw that either.

Will be buying one begrudgingly, but the rifle will be going back to DT pronto on any further issue at all, as this is a seriously low blow.

Also watching to see if new MDRs or the eventual 5.56 come with it pre-installed.

Can't wait to see next if IMI match needs one setting to not rip rims off, while PPU match won't cycle or extract on the same setting, so can waste time removing the handguard to change gas settings, and you know, actually shoot..

Not convinced it will cure all, but will see soon enough.  Too bad DT is choosing to make more $ instead of fixing their rifle and make customers happy with an already overpriced rifle.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Box on May 16, 2018, 09:58:54 PM
This is a very bad move by DT.

Awful, awful treatment of the loyal (and patient) customers.  Disgusting.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 16, 2018, 10:05:02 PM
Tavor 7 is looking more and more like the 308 bullpup I will end up with...at least I know IWI won't backstab their customer base and will release a WORKING product.



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on May 16, 2018, 10:19:05 PM
What is going to be total sad is when people buy this gas plug and the rifle will still choke because of improper tolerance stacking.

I have two weeks of vacation in July...I'll roadtrip to Utah if necessary to get mine fixed if they don't work.

If you do this. I want a live broadcast when you walk in to drop them off for warranty service.

Consider it done.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Clarke-Sensei on May 16, 2018, 11:05:15 PM
How surprising of a move by DT. :?!?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: HBeretta on May 16, 2018, 11:53:11 PM
I remember Kel Tec sending me ďthe correctĒ piston when my RFB had one that was over gassing the rifle. Sent an email and photo - 5 days later I had a piston in my mailbox.

likewise, some of the original RDB bolts suffered from the extractor retention pins walking out.  yeah it's a hassle to send your rifle in for them to provide the new updated bolt.  but, it was done AT NO COST and their turn times in doing so are exceptional in my experience.  well not a hassle really when they're providing a new bolt along with checking the headspace.  now i was sent an updated bolt, but subsequent instruction advised sending the rifle in along with the bolt to check headspace to ensure proper function - for obvious liability reasons.  anyway...  

obviously, with all the visibility here with problematic MDR threads dominating this forum lately...i agree this doesn't sit well.  if their rifles were problem free i think they would be able to get away with charging this for a 6 position gas plug.  

maybe it might be a good idea for them to start seeking out 3rd party interest not only for barrels but for the hand guards, gas plugs, etc...and so on in the same vein or analogous to the AR15 market ie uppers/lowers/bolts...to help alleviate the burden and who knows, maybe someone will get it right.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sawdustshot on May 17, 2018, 12:08:23 AM
Chances of DT buying back your MDR is slim. You might as well just sell it on the used market.
Depending on the lemon laws in whichever state Zeiram lives in, DT may not have a choice.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: JesseJames38 on May 17, 2018, 01:08:05 AM
I am not sure how to really express my dislike at this little stunt. Of the months after months of delays being told that everything is working fine and waiting on the ejection chutes.  And finally having the rifle released to the public. It seems 3/4ths of the riles on this sight along having the same issue with ejection and destroying rims off of casings. People sending there firearms back in on there Dime just for DT to send them right back with the same issues.

Hell I remember when some one in the bullpup forums asked Desert tech how many rifles will be going back to DT for issues. And low and behold Nick Young him self responded saying 0,   because that is why we took so long to release it is to insure there will be no issues. Hell, they even issued a update on there website that the people who pre ordered would be taken care of. No one should have to buy a 50 dollar part to gamble to make a 2500 dollar rifle work.   People shouldn't have to be paying shipping to them due to a defective rifle coming off the assembly line and not work. At this point in time my rifle works with the current gas plug.  But there is no way in hell I am going to spend 50 dollars for a gas plug from the original manufacturer to make my 2500 dollar firearm work that I ordered from them.

Sure a lot of people give Kel tec a hard time about quality of a firearm, and Kel tec fixes it no questions asked.  They brake a firing pin, the company sends them 2 of them at no charge.  Other people have a gas problem,  Kel tec send them a new updated gas plug and they get to keep the old one. And these are suppose to be low quality  sub 1500 dollar firearms.

Now you have Desert Tech, which likes to look at them self as a high quality firearms mfg.   Sends out a product that seems to be working about 3/4ths the time.  And they want to charge the customer to fix the rifle with a new gas plug. Not only that, the rifle hasn't even been released for a full year yet.

For a company that talks about quality,  I have to say I am very disappointed in the outcome.  In fact here is a little quote from Nick him self from the 2017 update "3. Price Increase: The engineering and refinement that went into the forward ejection mechanism and other features of the MDR are nothing less than fantastic; it is super reliable, accurate, and durable. Unfortunately, more features and more innovation just costs more to produce than we initially expected which has forced us to increase the price on the MDR.
 As of January 4, 2017 the new pricing is:
 d. MDR 7.62 is $2,525
 e. MDR 5.56 is $2,275"

From the majority of the owners here, they seem to be missing that super reliable, and durable part of the rifle along with "fantastic"

As for shelling out 50 bucks on a 2500 dollar rifle, to the original manufacture no less to have it run reliably. They can take and kiss my...ÖÖÖÖ.


That's my thoughts

Jesse.



 
 



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Whoops on May 17, 2018, 02:41:31 AM
All you folks who used to get pissed at me for calling out s***ty business practices with DT lol

I seriously hope the MDR is eventually gotten right, but I'm gonna guess that the s***ty attitude of Nick Young and the FREQUENT lies that DT has been caught in are only signs of how this rifle is going to be handled, forever.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: jreffner on May 17, 2018, 06:50:28 AM
Seriously?!?!  The new gas valve that hopefully works better is going to be a PAID upgrade?!?!?!

Is this even the case for the .223 orders that don't ship until October?

I wouldn't call that an upgrade, I'd call it a fix and should clearly be free.

All of these negative stories are really starting to wear me down.  Perhaps it is good that my MDR isn't set to ship until mid October.  Perhaps that will be enough time for a Tavor 7 to be released in .223.  If that happens, well... I'm going to give it some serious thought and maybe cancel my MDR order.

This is sad.  Could anyone please confirm that even the .223 MDR buyers will have to pay for the new valve?  Thanks!


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 17, 2018, 08:45:36 AM
All you folks who used to get pissed at me for calling out s***ty business practices with DT lol

I seriously hope the MDR is eventually gotten right, but I'm gonna guess that the s***ty attitude of Nick Young and the FREQUENT lies that DT has been caught in are only signs of how this rifle is going to be handled, forever.

I am with you. People gave me crap about my call outs too...but almost all the things I've predicted have been coming true...including this...I told you guys this wasn't going to be free. They have to make up for the lost revenue from people cancelling orders and the warranty costs...its greedy business 1:1.

I am just glad I made the switch to the LMT MWS platform and will be investing in the Tavor 7 in the future instead of trying to go for a MDR (believe it or not...I was very close when I sold/traded my STI 2011 gun)...when you nickel and dime your loyal followers who put up their hard earned money like this for 4 YEARS...just further proves how DT as a company is truly ran within...I feel sorry for all the workers who probably want to do the right thing...but can't.

DT...you have a broken system...you charge a premium for the MDR...do the right thing...provide the $50 gas plug to your loyalist at no charge and install this thing into all the new rifles coming out...this gas plug will help with the issues...but I still think you have chamber problems and improper tolerance stacking after fouling occurs in the system, so to ask people to keep gambling with their hard earned money just to see if this fix will cure the MDR is laughable...what will be next...a $250 dollar upgrade to the ejection chute? $99 charge to hone the chamber for reliable extraction? $25 dollar upgrade to keep pins from breaking $499 upgrade for an upgrade stripped polymer receiver....

Honestly, if DT doesn't ship new rifles with this gas plug and is an available upgrade forever...well...they can just kiss any future business from me.

Coldboremiracle...you listening....you guys done made your loyalist mad now...that is bad bad bad bad for your brand...



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 17, 2018, 08:50:35 AM
Seriously?!?!  The new gas valve that hopefully works better is going to be a PAID upgrade?!?!?!

Is this even the case for the .223 orders that don't ship until October?

I wouldn't call that an upgrade, I'd call it a fix and should clearly be free.

All of these negative stories are really starting to wear me down.  Perhaps it is good that my MDR isn't set to ship until mid October.  Perhaps that will be enough time for a Tavor 7 to be released in .223.  If that happens, well... I'm going to give it some serious thought and maybe cancel my MDR order.

This is sad.  Could anyone please confirm that even the .223 MDR buyers will have to pay for the new valve?  Thanks!

.223 MDR is vaporware brother....we know 0 facts about it...only thing we have is some videos of prototypes shooting and what info the CEO released via updates....we do not know anything about its gas settings or port sizes...the only thing I can tell you...from the videos provided...the gas operation is much much smoother than the 308 MDR...so there is hope...but after this move...I don't think I will invest into any MDR...backstabbing loyal followers is a big no no for me...

At this point...I'd tell you to cancel your preorder...and get a RDB...it has a very good adjustable gas system, grittles trigger...and awesome warranty. The design is stupid simple...


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on May 17, 2018, 09:02:38 AM

Perhaps that will be enough time for a Tavor 7 to be released in .223. 

Could anyone please confirm that even the .223 MDR buyers will have to pay for the new valve? 
!

I'm really not understanding what you mean by "T7 released in .223?"

The MDR will run well in 5.56.

I know this because 5.56 is:

1/2 the power of .308
72.4% the diameter of .308
~ 1/3 the projectile weight of .308
~ 4 times less recoil of .308

So while the power of 5.56 is a fraction of the power of 3.08 no matter what terms you are comparing, the strength of 5.56 shell casings is probably greater and requires MORE force to tear off the rim than .308 casings because the smaller 5.56 diameter makes the rim inherently STRONGER.

What I am saying that it is several orders of magnitude harder to design a reliable .308 semi-auto than it is to design a 5.56 version. Otherwise, there would have been many .308 Bullpup variants over the years.



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 17, 2018, 09:22:51 AM
Just because the cartridge is weaker than the 308...does not mean the MDR will run well in 223...it has a better chance...yes...


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on May 17, 2018, 09:31:00 AM
Just because the cartridge is weaker than the 308...does not mean the MDR will run well in 223...it has a better chance...yes...

Can we agree that the chance is Far Greater?

Perhaps at least 10 times greater?






Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Zeiram3f on May 17, 2018, 09:50:39 AM
Unfortunately we cannot agree on this. Just because it may properly extract, does not mean that it will properly eject. Regardless, I believe this system requires the same amount of force to cycle the bolt, unless conversion kits change out the springs and other compressing hardware. If they do not, then 5.56 is more likely to tear than 7.62.

Anyhow you have more stuck cases in chutes than you have torn rims. Yes, this is a simpler fix in the field but it shouldnít be required by a good 20-40% of the MDR owners out there.

Beyond that you have magazine release issues still, reported in most MDRs. I would guess up to 60-70% have had stiff magazine release issues up to this point in time.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: coldboremiracle on May 17, 2018, 10:04:52 AM
Coldboremiracle...you listening...

If you think I have any say in these things, you'd be mistaken.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on May 17, 2018, 10:50:18 AM
I could be wrong but I would think if they put out a product that has issues from the factory and then try to sell parts to resolve the issue that would be bad for them. It make me think class action suit. while I would prefer to not get lawyer involved or hurt the company I (and probably all of us) do want our rifles when  receive to work flawlessly. I am willing to deal with delays and them sending me parts to swap and even sending them my rifle once to swap major parts. as long as in the end i get the rifle with the expected features working reliable and accurately.

If I get mine in July as they are estimate I will pass along my results and any "fixes" I see they have put in place.
I have a few tools and may be able to measure the head space and the like.

I would love to see them move the gas block forward the needed amount to fix pressure with the 6 setting kit in it. extend the pic. rail on the block backwards to fill the gap and notch the hand guard to allow for adjusting the settings and the move forward. maybe even swap in the over molded hand guard instead for our troubles



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 17, 2018, 10:58:05 AM
Coldboremiracle...you listening...

If you think I have any say in these things, you'd be mistaken.

I know you donít (mostly because itís frowned upon to suggest anything to the CEO) but you are our connection to DT. If DT cares, they will listen to the loyal uproar on this...if leadership does not listen...it will show that all they care about is money and in this industry that is bad bad bad. Hope DT is more mature than that and provide updates to their broken system free of charge to existing and upcoming customers.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on May 17, 2018, 12:08:40 PM

The MDR will run well in 5.56.

I know this because 5.56 is:

1/2 the power of .308
72.4% the diameter of .308
~ 1/3 the projectile weight of .308
~ 4 times less recoil of .308

So while the power of 5.56 is a fraction of the power of 3.08 no matter what terms you are comparing, the strength of 5.56 shell casings is probably greater and requires MORE force to tear off the rim than .308 casings because the smaller 5.56 diameter makes the rim inherently STRONGER.

What I am saying that it is several orders of magnitude harder to design a reliable .308 semi-auto than it is to design a 5.56 version. Otherwise, there would have been many .308 Bullpup variants over the years.



This!
  Let's face it the MDR is a moderate, to poor .308.  But as a .223 this gun is going to be way over built. Heavy, but way stronger than it needs to be.  Everything from the bolt carrier weight, to the recoil spring is beefed up to handle the .308 and is way more than you need for .223.  The gas system cycle is much different to due to the powder burn rate in .223 cases.  You can get away with a much shorter gas system in .223.  You should be able to crank a .223 MDR up to adverse and watch it spit brass like an M4 with a carbine gas system.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Ditcher on May 17, 2018, 12:55:31 PM
Well we know management doesn't listen to employees.  based off the reviews on glassdoor from ex employees it is clear what we are dealing with at DT.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 17, 2018, 01:05:54 PM

The MDR will run well in 5.56.

I know this because 5.56 is:

1/2 the power of .308
72.4% the diameter of .308
~ 1/3 the projectile weight of .308
~ 4 times less recoil of .308

So while the power of 5.56 is a fraction of the power of 3.08 no matter what terms you are comparing, the strength of 5.56 shell casings is probably greater and requires MORE force to tear off the rim than .308 casings because the smaller 5.56 diameter makes the rim inherently STRONGER.

What I am saying that it is several orders of magnitude harder to design a reliable .308 semi-auto than it is to design a 5.56 version. Otherwise, there would have been many .308 Bullpup variants over the years.



This!
  Let's face it the MDR is a moderate, to poor .308.  But as a .223 this gun is going to be way over built. Heavy, but way stronger than it needs to be.  Everything from the bolt carrier weight, to the recoil spring is beefed up to handle the .308 and is way more than you need for .223.  The gas system cycle is much different to due to the powder burn rate in .223 cases.  You can get away with a much shorter gas system in .223.  You should be able to crank a .223 MDR up to adverse and watch it spit brass like an M4 with a carbine gas system.

In theory you are 100% correct...however knowing the track record with DT on the MDR...it will get screwed up somehow...I hope I am wrong...


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: hillbillyjim on May 17, 2018, 01:06:41 PM
All you folks who used to get pissed at me for calling out s***ty business practices with DT lol

I seriously hope the MDR is eventually gotten right, but I'm gonna guess that the s***ty attitude of Nick Young and the FREQUENT lies that DT has been caught in are only signs of how this rifle is going to be handled, forever.

I am with you. People gave me crap about my call outs too...but almost all the things I've predicted have been coming true...including this...I told you guys this wasn't going to be free. They have to make up for the lost revenue from people cancelling orders and the warranty costs...its greedy business 1:1.

I am just glad I made the switch to the LMT MWS platform and will be investing in the Tavor 7 in the future instead of trying to go for a MDR (believe it or not...I was very close when I sold/traded my STI 2011 gun)...when you nickel and dime your loyal followers who put up their hard earned money like this for 4 YEARS...just further proves how DT as a company is truly ran within...I feel sorry for all the workers who probably want to do the right thing...but can't.

DT...you have a broken system...you charge a premium for the MDR...do the right thing...provide the $50 gas plug to your loyalist at no charge and install this thing into all the new rifles coming out...this gas plug will help with the issues...but I still think you have chamber problems and improper tolerance stacking after fouling occurs in the system, so to ask people to keep gambling with their hard earned money just to see if this fix will cure the MDR is laughable...what will be next...a $250 dollar upgrade to the ejection chute? $99 charge to hone the chamber for reliable extraction? $25 dollar upgrade to keep pins from breaking $499 upgrade for an upgrade stripped polymer receiver....

Honestly, if DT doesn't ship new rifles with this gas plug and is an available upgrade forever...well...they can just kiss any future business from me.

Coldboremiracle...you listening....you guys done made your loyalist mad now...that is bad bad bad bad for your brand...



Looks like I backed out of the group buy at the right time.  I had so much high hopes for this and the joy when it finally started shipping Iíve been glued to my email waiting for my turn.  All these issues for a $2000 + firearm is bull crap.  Thatís Kel Tec MO.  I expected better from a company that produces one of the best precision bolt action rifles.  Canít wait until Tavor 7 is released.  I will probably wait six months after the release before getting one make sure it isnít a fail on the mdr level


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: rtp on May 17, 2018, 02:33:09 PM
I had so much high hopes for this and the joy when it finally started shipping Iíve been glued to my email waiting for my turn.  All these issues for a $2000 + firearm is bull crap.  Thatís Kel Tec MO.  I expected better from a company that produces one of the best precision bolt action rifles.  Canít wait until Tavor 7 is released.  I will probably wait six months after the release before getting one make sure it isnít a fail on the mdr level
Tomorrows Weapons, Today
Tomorrows Weapons, Tomorrow
Tomorrows Weapons, 2 More Weeks
Tomorrows Weapons, Sometime
Todays Weapons, Delayed
Got it:
DT - Almost as good as a Kel-Tec, but more expensive and with lesser support
 >:(


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Glorfindel on May 17, 2018, 04:30:50 PM
I had so much high hopes for this and the joy when it finally started shipping Iíve been glued to my email waiting for my turn.  All these issues for a $2000 + firearm is bull crap.  Thatís Kel Tec MO.  I expected better from a company that produces one of the best precision bolt action rifles.  Canít wait until Tavor 7 is released.  I will probably wait six months after the release before getting one make sure it isnít a fail on the mdr level
Tomorrows Weapons, Today
Tomorrows Weapons, Tomorrow
Tomorrows Weapons, 2 More Weeks
Tomorrows Weapons, Sometime
Todays Weapons, Delayed
Got it:
DT - Almost as good as a Kel-Tec, but more expensive and with lesser support
 >:(

I wish I could laugh at that, because it is funny, but I can't muster it up.

I spent a hefty chunk of change to send mine back to DT, and was told there's nothing wrong with it at first. A few days later I was told that there might've been a bit of debris lodged under the extractor and that must be what caused the ripped rim. I never shot it again after that, just sold it. Wish I wouldn't have spent the money to send it in, but I was hoping DT would say "Oh yeah, that one was put together wrong, it should be good to go now."

Probably gonna go with a POF Revolution 12.5" pistol to satisfy my OAL desires. As a bonus, it'll also be almost 2 pounds lighter. Perhaps SBR it at some point so I can put a proper rifle stock on.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 17, 2018, 04:52:13 PM
Revolution is a sweet piece of kit.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on May 17, 2018, 05:30:07 PM

The MDR will run well in 5.56.

I know this because 5.56 is:

1/2 the power of .308
72.4% the diameter of .308
~ 1/3 the projectile weight of .308
~ 4 times less recoil of .308

So while the power of 5.56 is a fraction of the power of 3.08 no matter what terms you are comparing, the strength of 5.56 shell casings is probably greater and requires MORE force to tear off the rim than .308 casings because the smaller 5.56 diameter makes the rim inherently STRONGER.

What I am saying that it is several orders of magnitude harder to design a reliable .308 semi-auto than it is to design a 5.56 version. Otherwise, there would have been many .308 Bullpup variants over the years.



This!
  Let's face it the MDR is a moderate, to poor .308.  But as a .223 this gun is going to be way over built. Heavy, but way stronger than it needs to be.  Everything from the bolt carrier weight, to the recoil spring is beefed up to handle the .308 and is way more than you need for .223.  The gas system cycle is much different to due to the powder burn rate in .223 cases.  You can get away with a much shorter gas system in .223.  You should be able to crank a .223 MDR up to adverse and watch it spit brass like an M4 with a carbine gas system.

Actually, I'm thinking the MDR still has a lot of promise for .300Blk and 7.62x39 despite its teething pains in .308.

DT must survive long enough to make those MDR calibers available and the demand for them will probably not be anywhere the demand would be for a modular .308 that equaled or exceeded the T7.

I could provide consulting services to DT to better manage their PR to get them through this troubled water but I doubt they would listen, much less pay my fee.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 17, 2018, 05:40:31 PM
I thought about offering my business skills...but they probably wonít listen either looking at their track record.

If they canít fix the 308...you can kiss this platform goodbye...308 platform is the big daddy that would allow DT to financially venture into the other calibers.


With the track record of the 308 MDR...do you think people would buy a 223, 300BO or 7.62x39 MDR over a TAVOR or AUG? No way would I gamble $2500.

Honestly...a 300BO will be more troublesome than the 308 to tame...plus the weapon has to be redesigned to accommodate the gas block being so close to the chamber....it would be one gassy bullpup.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: HBeretta on May 17, 2018, 07:34:27 PM
they're still scrambling to fulfill orders...so i'm not surprised about these QC issues.  the hudson9 that launched months ago as they scrambled to get it launched...similar scenario with regard to QC and issues.  Kel-Tec seemingly isn't worried about the ongoing high demand for their products, although it seems they continue to expand their production facility along with running 3 shifts, continue to have QC issues with the production grind to keep up with demand.

i'm curious what the MDR landscape will be a year or so from now...once they're caught up with demand; fingers crossed - assuming there still is demand.  one would hope they iron out all the kinks by then.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: rtp on May 17, 2018, 07:52:00 PM
I had so much high hopes for this and the joy when it finally started shipping Iíve been glued to my email waiting for my turn.  All these issues for a $2000 + firearm is bull crap.  Thatís Kel Tec MO.  I expected better from a company that produces one of the best precision bolt action rifles.  Canít wait until Tavor 7 is released.  I will probably wait six months after the release before getting one make sure it isnít a fail on the mdr level
Tomorrows Weapons, Today
Tomorrows Weapons, Tomorrow
Tomorrows Weapons, 2 More Weeks
Tomorrows Weapons, Sometime
Todays Weapons, Delayed
Got it:
DT - Almost as good as a Kel-Tec, but more expensive and with lesser support
 >:(

I wish I could laugh at that, because it is funny, but I can't muster it up.

I know it, just sometimes gotta laugh or scream.  Not picking on anyone - I have a .308 MDR which has already been back to DT, and is still ripping case rims from match ammo.  I also at least at the moment, also have $ down on the future-maybe-someday 5.56....

Just...meh.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Slateman on May 18, 2018, 01:23:25 PM
Will the .223 version be getting this?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Articlion on May 18, 2018, 01:59:51 PM
Will the .223 version be getting this?

yep for the small fee of $79.99 but that only if you want possible "reliable functioning" I know that seems like a good deal only 79.99 for possible "reliable functioning" WOW  But its even better than you  think, if you hurry up and order this sucker now they will let it go for the low low cost of 49.99.  thats 37% below MSRP for this wonder valve but hurry now quantities are limited and this extreme discount expires soon so call (801) 975-7272 today to get your order placed before this incredible gift of deal expires.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on May 18, 2018, 02:03:42 PM
Will the .223 version be getting this?

I would say the chances of the .223 having the new 6 position plug is really high.  Considering they are still "testing" it I think that would be a no brainer.  They can't afford anymore bad PR from rifles that don't work.  Their reputation is hanging by a thread, and I think they know it.  If the .223 rifles come off the line flawless it could literally save their bacon.  Some good .223 sales and a few months of good press could give them time to salvage the .308 and get it back on track.  


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sdevante on May 18, 2018, 02:25:01 PM
All I know is, this thing better make my rifle run smooth as butter.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 18, 2018, 04:04:23 PM
Will the .223 version be getting this?

I would say the chances of the .223 having the new 6 position plug is really high.  Considering they are still "testing" it I think that would be a no brainer.  They can't afford anymore bad PR from rifles that don't work.  Their reputation is hanging by a thread, and I think they know it.  If the .223 rifles come off the line flawless it could literally save their bacon.  Some good .223 sales and a few months of good press could give them time to salvage the .308 and get it back on track.  

It is also a no brainer for DT to include this gas plug for EVERY SINGLE 308 MDR...but now...we are also seeing the barrel extensions suffering from bad quality.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Andyb on May 18, 2018, 11:12:15 PM
At this point if paying 60 bucks makes my rifle run how it should so be it.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 19, 2018, 12:09:13 AM
LOL...and that is exactly the mentality DT is banking on with this.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Andyb on May 19, 2018, 12:35:02 AM
LOL...and that is exactly the mentality DT is banking on with this.

Yup, and if I gave any less of a f**k I'd be an unemployed hooker


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 19, 2018, 09:13:36 AM
It doesn't bother you one bit that if this gas valve is the fix for the issues (which I truly doubt but I have hopes)...that DT shouldn't include it on all future MDRs and send this out to all MDR current owners as a standard part?

With this massive lack of quality of a gun called MDR...this would be an easy business decision and a huge PR boost for their brand.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Andyb on May 19, 2018, 10:43:53 AM
Of course they should.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Siris on May 21, 2018, 09:11:03 PM
Starting to pay less and less attention to this forum as I find it more and more grating and less useful, honestly surprised I'm posting here right now. So that tangent out of the way, I have had no issues with torn rims and found that the mdr eats anything that my scar will just as readily. As for paying to ship, while yes I have paid to ship a few small parts a couple of times (something I dont mind after reading about the guy who can't file a claim on the scar he had stolen out of the mail) but my most recent return of the whole rifle (got an odd issue with the ejector that seems to be unique to me far as I can tell) the la el was prepaid.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on May 21, 2018, 09:26:34 PM
Glad to hear you have had a chance to enjoy your MDR Siris. Mine arrives in july. Already planning some mods/accessories for it.
I like that new magpul bipod and working on getting a Q trash panda

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on May 22, 2018, 12:23:50 AM
Starting to pay less and less attention to this forum as I find it more and more grating and less useful, honestly surprised I'm posting here right now. So that tangent out of the way, I have had no issues with torn rims and found that the mdr eats anything that my scar will just as readily. As for paying to ship, while yes I have paid to ship a few small parts a couple of times (something I dont mind after reading about the guy who can't file a claim on the scar he had stolen out of the mail) but my most recent return of the whole rifle (got an odd issue with the ejector that seems to be unique to me far as I can tell) the la el was prepaid.

Glad to here yours is working well.  Curious what ammo you are running?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Aussie E on May 22, 2018, 08:10:31 AM
but my most recent return of the whole rifle (got an odd issue with the ejector that seems to be unique to me far as I can tell) the la el was prepaid.

A little confused, is the above statement in regards to your MDR or another rifle?

AE


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on May 22, 2018, 07:22:15 PM
Desert Tech has released a video about the gas plug and how to replace the detent.

https://youtu.be/14vvUT4CHc4 (https://youtu.be/14vvUT4CHc4)



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Siris on May 23, 2018, 04:45:30 AM
I've been using a mix of some nice match and various surplus ammo. And yes my mdr went back after I had issues with intermittent release of the ejector cover. I initially sent the cover in and after they tested it and couldn't find an issue with it they asked me to send the whole rifle and sent me a lable. As for the comment on theft, that was someone on the fn forum who sent their scar to fn and had it stolen in transit. Last I heard the poor person was having to fight with fedex who was telling him fn had to file the case as they were the ones who created the shipping lable. So a few bucks for peace of mind is a worthwhile trade in my book.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: AF Gunner on May 23, 2018, 10:38:37 AM
Just wanted to add a bit of information. I received my new 6 position yesterday and pinned out the diameter of the holes this morning.

Old 3 Position
S - 0.030"
N - 0.041"
A - 0.049"

New
1 - 0.015"
2 - 0.026"
3 - 0.037"
4 - 0.041" - Normal
5 - 0.044"
6 - 0.049" - Adverse

I don't know if DT is still shipping the 3 position gas block with the insert that is welded on to reduce the hole size, it's in mine, but they really need to start shipping new guns with these 6 positions. My gun runs and run well so I have not had an issue with my 3 position, but the new six position just looks so much better not having that welded sleeve in it. It looks like the valve should look, not a welded together mess with holes that don't even line up.

From Facebook, there are several that have already shot their guns with the new six positon. It seem they are using position 3 for normal ammo and position 1 for suppressed.

Air Force Gunner.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 23, 2018, 10:50:50 AM
Let's hope this fixes the problems...I truly hope it does...agreed that it should be a standard part on all rifles


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sdevante on May 23, 2018, 10:58:32 AM
Mine is arriving today and will go to the range this weekend. Also hoping this fixes the problem - although the thought has occurred to me that if this is not a standard part on the 5.56, then I suppose I either need to buy another extra valve or constantly switch valves when switching calibers. What a PITA. Thanks DT!


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Articlion on May 23, 2018, 11:31:51 AM
fyi "all new rifles are shipped with the  3 position gas valve which is what the rifle was designed for"(DT). The 6 position valve is just an accessory (just like hanging dice from your mirror it looks cool but does nothing for performance and cost you money ) that is not needed or required to make your rifle operational or reliable. so if you want to look cool sticking a screw driver down your hand guard go ahead and buy the latest flavor of cool aid from DT but don't think that  by installing the valve you will fix cycling rim ripping syndrome on your new rifle. Your best bet would be to use the warranty and send the rifle back the DT. The  warranty department seems on the up and up and are addressing problems quickly and professional they should get your rifle running as designed. with out having to buy anything


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 23, 2018, 11:33:06 AM
Mine is arriving today and will go to the range this weekend. Also hoping this fixes the problem - although the thought has occurred to me that if this is not a standard part on the 5.56, then I suppose I either need to buy another extra valve or constantly switch valves when switching calibers. What a PITA. Thanks DT!

Well your gas port sizes will be different for a 5.56...so this plug won't work anyway on the 5.56 MDR...


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: AF Gunner on May 23, 2018, 01:37:08 PM
fyi "all new rifles are shipped with the  3 position gas valve which is what the rifle was designed for"(DT). The 6 position valve is just an accessory (just like hanging dice from your mirror it looks cool but does nothing for performance and cost you money ) that is not needed or required to make your rifle operational or reliable. so if you want to look cool sticking a screw driver down your hand guard go ahead and buy the latest flavor of cool aid from DT but don't think that  by installing the valve you will fix cycling rim ripping syndrome on your new rifle. Your best bet would be to use the warranty and send the rifle back the DT. The  warranty department seems on the up and up and are addressing problems quickly and professional they should get your rifle running as designed. with out having to buy anything

I actually agree with you; however, They should be shipped with the same quality and workmanship as the 6 position. Mine works fine with the 3 position but I wanted more choices mostly for shooting suppressed. Which I have not done yet. I'm sure the 3 positon will work fine for thousands and thousands of round with that welded insert. But they just look like s*** and are not of the quality you expect from a $2500 dollar gun. If they get rid of the welded insert on the 3 position, fine keep shipping them. I would also say they should convert new guns to the new detent just for compatibility between the 3 and 6 valve and not having as many parts to inventory and mix up in production.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sdevante on May 23, 2018, 01:41:32 PM

Well your gas port sizes will be different for a 5.56...so this plug won't work anyway on the 5.56 MDR...

Excellent point I had not thought of.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: EODBombtechnician on May 23, 2018, 11:23:55 PM
Mine is arriving today and will go to the range this weekend. Also hoping this fixes the problem - although the thought has occurred to me that if this is not a standard part on the 5.56, then I suppose I either need to buy another extra valve or constantly switch valves when switching calibers. What a PITA. Thanks DT!

Well your gas port sizes will be different for a 5.56...so this plug won't work anyway on the 5.56 MDR...

Yup, the new plug is stamped 308.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 24, 2018, 08:22:29 AM
fyi "all new rifles are shipped with the  3 position gas valve which is what the rifle was designed for"(DT). The 6 position valve is just an accessory (just like hanging dice from your mirror it looks cool but does nothing for performance and cost you money ) that is not needed or required to make your rifle operational or reliable. so if you want to look cool sticking a screw driver down your hand guard go ahead and buy the latest flavor of cool aid from DT but don't think that  by installing the valve you will fix cycling rim ripping syndrome on your new rifle. Your best bet would be to use the warranty and send the rifle back the DT. The  warranty department seems on the up and up and are addressing problems quickly and professional they should get your rifle running as designed. with out having to buy anything

I actually agree with you; however, They should be shipped with the same quality and workmanship as the 6 position. Mine works fine with the 3 position but I wanted more choices mostly for shooting suppressed. Which I have not done yet. I'm sure the 3 positon will work fine for thousands and thousands of round with that welded insert. But they just look like s*** and are not of the quality you expect from a $2500 dollar gun. If they get rid of the welded insert on the 3 position, fine keep shipping them. I would also say they should convert new guns to the new detent just for compatibility between the 3 and 6 valve and not having as many parts to inventory and mix up in production.

Agreed...no matter how a company ships out a rifle...it should function 100% without a hitch at this price point.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on May 29, 2018, 01:09:44 AM
Being new to piston guns I had to do some google research on the subject.  I found some interesting things that helped shed light on the MDRs woes.  Piston veterans if i missed something please chime in.

  Short version, looks like this new gas plug may fix the cycling issues with the MDR.  Second, this is not an upgrade, its a fix to a problem DT new about (and probably created another one in the process).

  Okay here goes. Being a DI AR guy I'm familiar with the gas port size and location being used to adjust the timing of the system, in conjunction with the weight of the carrier/ buffer.  Turns out in a Piston gun that is less important and much more hinges on the piston assembly itself.   The concept of increasing the gas to add more energy to the cycle is pretty straight forward, but what I found interesting is the adjustment of the piston chamber itself.

 I ran into a post on an M14 forum about adjusting the timing on the iconic system that made me think.  The gist of it is that the dwell time of a piston system is regulated by how fast the piston chamber fills with gas to propel the piston.  The more you open up the gas port the faster you fill the chamber.  The interesting part is that by increasing the chamber volume you are effectively slowing the time it takes to fill it, creating more dwell time.  One of the posts mentioned that the smaller the chamber the more sharp and violent the recoil impulse tends to be.  Ring a bell?

 Speaking of dwell time. I just went shooting yesterday and while my brother was shooting the MDR with some M80 I was watching the bolt cycling.  As I was watching the port in the ejection chute I could literally see flash and sparks coming from the fired cases as they where pulled from the chamber.  I've shot a lot of guns and I've never seen that before.  Another observation I have made is that when the gun is clean there is very little, if any damage to the rims (1k rounds on my gun).  When it is dirty and hot is when I start getting torn rims.  If the cases are literally being pulled before the burn/ dwell is complete this would make sense. When the chamber is clean they pull out, when its caked with carbon they stick, and the rims take the heat.

  Chamber dwell time is influenced by several things, including the weight of the projectile, and the charge and burn rate of the propellant among other things.  Lets assume whoever did the engineering math behind the dimensions had a decent starting point.  So the general size of the piston components, bolt carrier ect should work on paper... within a know pressure spectrum.  It's seems likely that the production MDR was given out for testing and people started shooting ammo other than DT match ammo through it, which is where the problems started.

 Which brings us to the gas plug sleeve.  Now taking what we already know about the gas piston chamber, if you put a sleeve in the plug you have reduced the chamber volume, and in turn the dwell time.  There are two possible trains of thought about this problem. #1 DT knew about this change in volume and compensated by reducing the port size accordingly.  This one seems a little unlikely given MDRs current performance.  #2 DT completely spaced it and significantly handicapped the MDRs gas system for a quick cheap "fix" to an over pressure issue with ammo other than DT match.

 I find it interesting the ES tactical cut straight to the chase and custom ported a 6 position plug for their barrels.  That raises the question of who came up with the idea first, ES tac, or DT?  Also makes me wonder if ES tac expanded the chamber volume over what DT started with.

  Either way this brings me to my last point, this 6 position plug should have been in the MDR when it was released.  Pretty obvious DT knew something was wrong when they put the sleeve in there. It's a blatant band-aid.  Sleeve the plugs and ship the guns, we'll get the new plugs when we can.

  DT needs to own this and make good with it's customers.  Don't tell us the turd sandwich (welded plug) was designed that way.  Admit it was a temporary fix, and say you're going to make it right.  Free of charge.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on May 29, 2018, 08:01:58 AM
So your saying DT over gassed the MDR by having the gas ports too large in an effort to fix it they sleeved in some smaller ports shifting the problem to being too small a gas chamber instead of too large a gas port. Keeping the same issue just shifting it to a different source.
If I had not spent $2500 on an MDR this might be a bit funny. I wonder if the could resolve it be sending out replacement 3 position gas valve with the right size holes, and no sleeve.

And thanks for the great explanation

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sawdustshot on May 29, 2018, 09:23:20 AM
I was guessing the chamber was too small/ holes too big. Depending on how far of a push the op rod needs, I wonder if the piston could be shaved down in length to give more volume. Would 1/16-1/8" fix or reduce the issues?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Whoops on May 29, 2018, 01:29:11 PM
I was guessing the chamber was too small/ holes too big. Depending on how far of a push the op rod needs, I wonder if the piston could be shaved down in length to give more volume. Would 1/16-1/8" fix or reduce the issues?

You're gonna get increased recoil due to the deceased weight, and it'll beat on your rifle a little harder I think.

So far the biggest suspects for why the MDR is unreliable seem to be the following:
1. Barrel extension
2.gas chamber/ports
3. The firing chamber
4(?). Possibly the extractor is too small.

Basically, the design itself seems to be fine, but due to some QC issues and some small things that should have been caught, they all act together to.make the MDR function to an iffy degree at best.

When I get my MDR I plan on joining in this beta testing process but we'll see how it goes. I'm more than a little irked because all I wanted was a solid .308 bullpup that had the features I wanted- the MDR got all the features right IMO, but didn't get the solid part right.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: JesseJames38 on May 29, 2018, 02:08:12 PM
In the words of my friend from work.  They had everything going for it.    "They got the ball, ran it all the way to the one yard line and spiked it."    In short,  they just didn't make it to the goal line to spiked the ball, they came up one yard short and blew it.  And sadly, they have all the opportunity to make it right, and they fumbled that to.       GOO TEAM!


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 29, 2018, 04:35:02 PM
 :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: TNC on May 29, 2018, 09:00:50 PM
BlackandWhite, some of your assessments appear quite logical, and your description is very good.  I wonder about the carbon fouling or buildup you mention.  Piston guns like this are renowned for taking a very long time to build up carbon and residue in the chamber...obviously they eventually get dirty...just run cleaner than DI's and such.

That is interesting about your observation of possible combustion at the ejection port.  Can't say I've seen or heard of it before.  It caused me to go look at some semiauto and full auto vids that show closer shots of the ejection port.  I looked at quite a few and never saw flame or sparks.  I'm certainly not saying that can happen, as I certainly haven't seen or heard everything.

Being a reloader my understanding is that all combustion has occurred before a spent case is extracted from the chamber.  In a piston gun the case swells completely preventing the initial combustion blast from going into the barrel extension or ejection area.  Most flame and other combustion byproducts go out the muzzle with some small gas amounts still following the spent case as it ejects from the chamber.  A blown primer or catastrophic case head failure could result in flame or sparks in the barrel extension and ejection port area, but it would seem most unusual otherwise.

Just observations on my part, so take that for what it's worth.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sawdustshot on May 29, 2018, 11:55:11 PM
You're gonna get increased recoil due to the deceased weight, and it'll beat on your rifle a little harder I think.
If the piston shaft's small diameter is .250" and I did my math right, the weight reduction from shaving .125" off the end is a whopping 0.028 ounces. However, moving the piston face back that same distance increases the chamber volume by what, 10 percent on the low end? The relative increase in chamber volume is far greater than the relative decrease in the weight of the reciprocating parts.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on May 30, 2018, 03:43:52 PM
So I watched and re-watched with plenty of pausing and resuming the DT gas valve video.
what I was trying to see is how far in the the back edge of the gas valve  the hole/s are.
what I cannot see (someone with an MDR could enlighten us) is how far in from the back edge the gas chamber goes. I was trying to figure out how DT may be able to fix some of the issues without a major redesign of any parts.
my thought if the gas pressure/timing is an issue and taking into account info from previous posts. what if they just moved the holes towards the mussel a bit on the barrel/valve/block. since I do not know the math let say 1/8th inch.
I do not know if the holes on existing barrels/gas blocks/valves could be filled so they could be reused (sounds like a bad ideal) but it seems it would be relatively easy to move the holes in newly created ones.
if the hole is moved toward mussel a small amount on existing barrel/block/valve design you can skip
   moving barrel shoulder
   moving gas block
   redesigning gas block to accommodate shift of pic rail from moving block
   extending the piston
Going forward you can correct
   gas block hole size
   gas valve hole sizes
   barrel hole size
   not sleeve new valves
What will moving it forward do? (if my thinking is correct)
   1)more expansion time in barrel before gas is released into gas block so pressure lowers  going into gas block
   2)more time for casing to stop expanding
   3)since hole sizes are corrected lower pressure in gas chamber
   4)no longer having a sleeve in the gas valve expands the gas chamber again lower pressure
   5) 1, 3, 4 should all contribute to lower pressure and stop rim ripping?
   6) 1, 4 should effect timing allowing casing to not stick?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 30, 2018, 04:22:17 PM
Love the enthusiasm...but honestly...if someone is going to go buy a $2500 rifle...DIY their way into trying to solve a design flaw...it should be a hint that the platform is not worth it and has some major flaws.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on May 30, 2018, 08:35:10 PM
So I watched and re-watched with plenty of pausing and resuming the DT gas valve video.
what I was trying to see is how far in the the back edge of the gas valve  the hole/s are.
what I cannot see (someone with an MDR could enlighten us) is how far in from the back edge the gas chamber goes. I was trying to figure out how DT may be able to fix some of the issues without a major redesign of any parts.
my thought if the gas pressure/timing is an issue and taking into account info from previous posts. what if they just moved the holes towards the mussel a bit on the barrel/valve/block. since I do not know the math let say 1/8th inch.
I do not know if the holes on existing barrels/gas blocks/valves could be filled so they could be reused (sounds like a bad ideal) but it seems it would be relatively easy to move the holes in newly created ones.
if the hole is moved toward mussel a small amount on existing barrel/block/valve design you can skip
   moving barrel shoulder
   moving gas block
   redesigning gas block to accommodate shift of pic rail from moving block
   extending the piston
Going forward you can correct
   gas block hole size
   gas valve hole sizes
   barrel hole size
   not sleeve new valves
What will moving it forward do? (if my thinking is correct)
   1)more expansion time in barrel before gas is released into gas block so pressure lowers  going into gas block
   2)more time for casing to stop expanding
   3)since hole sizes are corrected lower pressure in gas chamber
   4)no longer having a sleeve in the gas valve expands the gas chamber again lower pressure
   5) 1, 3, 4 should all contribute to lower pressure and stop rim ripping?
   6) 1, 4 should effect timing allowing casing to not stick?


Muzzle, not mussel.

Look at the SCAR and you'll see a gas block set relatively far back from the muzzle and closer to the chamber, so the concept is sound and works.  I think there are other issues at play than where the gas block is located on the barrel.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on May 30, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
I thought that spelling looked off but autocorrect so i left it.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on May 31, 2018, 02:37:34 AM
Look at the SCAR and you'll see a gas block set relatively far back from the muzzle and closer to the chamber, so the concept is sound and works.  I think there are other issues at play than where the gas block is located on the barrel.

To understand what makes the SCAR-17 the softest felt recoil .308 I know of, one must look at how long and heavy the moving parts group actually is:

(https://hi-desertdog.com/images/source/FNH/SCAR_PARTS/scar17s-moving_parts_assy.jpg)

Link to parts page above:
https://hi-desertdog.com/fnh-scar-16s-17s/scar-spare-parts/bolt-carrier-group/410-17-moving-parts-group-scar-17s.html (https://hi-desertdog.com/fnh-scar-16s-17s/scar-spare-parts/bolt-carrier-group/410-17-moving-parts-group-scar-17s.html)

SCAR-17 Moving Parts Group relative size - See Part 105:
(https://www.midwestgunworks.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/SCAR-Schematic.jpg)



Yes, the SCAR-17 gas block and gas port are relatively close to the chamber, but there is so much mass in what is essentially the bolt carrier group that includes the reciprocating charging handle, that it delays the start of the ejection cycle in spite of the gas port's location.

Moving that much bolt mass is also what also slows the "quick sharp punch" of the felt recoil and converts it to more of a slower felt "push."

You wouldn't want to copy the SCAR-17's gas block and gas port location if you don't have such a massive BCG to move that serves to delay the start of the ejection cycle.
  
There are few rifle actions that are not apples to oranges comparisons to the SCAR-17.

Remember too that the 7.62x51 SCAR-17 is only 8 pounds zero ounces total dry weight, about 1-2 pounds heavier than a typical 5.56 AR-15 and close to 1/2 a pound LIGHTER than the MDR and a full pound lighter than the Tavor-7.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on May 31, 2018, 07:05:16 AM
While I do love the discussion of how things work, the effects of changes and problem solving.... How sad is it that this discussion needs to happen on a $2500 rifle while the manufacturer is silent.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 31, 2018, 08:07:10 AM
While I do love the discussion of how things work, the effects of changes and problem solving.... How sad is it that this discussion needs to happen on a $2500 rifle while the manufacturer is silent.

My point exactly... :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: JesseJames38 on May 31, 2018, 11:38:50 AM
I wounder how much the standard muzzle breake on the scar 17 helps to reduce the recoil?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 31, 2018, 11:49:20 AM
I use the same PWS compensator like the SCAR 17 on my LMT MWS...and I would say it reduces recoil by a TON...I mean... a ton...compared to a flash hider...it performs so well that if I trade the LMT MWS off for a TAVOR 7...it will come off and join me on that platform.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on May 31, 2018, 12:40:23 PM
TheHun, you are starting to sound like a second account for Hberetta.  Stirring the pot and trolling all the MDR threads is getting old.  Some of us have MDRs and are kinda committed to making them work at this point.  and yes, we realize the MDR is not measuring up to the standard of a $2500 gun.  The question we are all working through is; can it get there?  So if you have something helpful to add, by all means join the conversation.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 31, 2018, 12:57:53 PM
Naw. Not stirring the pot...I just donít worship this flawed platform like itís a god.

I bet most of you are brand lovers that will spend all credit card money in the world on it.

If you believe that spending $2500 on this platform and keep spending more to make it work is ok...have at it. Some of us will continue to keep calling out DT.

Believe me...we have the same end goal. Love the design and I want this platform to work as much as you do...but it is safe to say it needs recalled and revamped before it is too late.



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Articlion on May 31, 2018, 01:38:20 PM
The problem with a recall or revamp is dt has had this thing for years testing evaluating and engineering it to be in their words "perfect". At this point i don't think dt is competent, capable or willing(cost wise) to do what is Nesasary to make it function reliably its going to be up to the aftermarket or third party help which i don't think would is investment dt will make 


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Tubal on May 31, 2018, 02:04:04 PM
TheHun, you are starting to sound like a second account for Hberetta.  Stirring the pot and trolling all the MDR threads is getting old.  Some of us have MDRs and are kinda committed to making them work at this point.  and yes, we realize the MDR is not measuring up to the standard of a $2500 gun.  The question we are all working through is; can it get there?  So if you have something helpful to add, by all means join the conversation.

From another thread:
Since there is no ignore feature on bullpupforum, atleast not that I know of, if any of you are using ad blockers you can add this to your filter to block posts by certain users:

bullpupforum.com##tr:has(> td > table > tbody > tr > td > table > tbody > tr > td > b > [title*="thehun"])

Just replace "thehun" with whatever user you don't think contributes to the forum.  This works with ublock origin, but should work for others as well.


This forum is so much nicer when you can filter out the garbage.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on May 31, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Tubal to the rescue!!!!!


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: patrick711 on May 31, 2018, 05:12:53 PM
I purchased a Daniel Defense MK12 3 1/2 years ago, an just recently shooting it the stock would slip on every shot (6 position stock) So Tuesday I called to buy what ever spring or detent or new stock I need to correct it. Got guy named Ken in customer service, took my shipping info, gun serial # an sent me a shipping email right then, an the same day shipped me a new stock, that I got today,  not just the gizmos that would have corrected the problem, free of charge, not even any shipping or return the old one stuff. I told him I didn't need a whole new stock just the springs or what ever was suppose to hold it in place. Ken wouldn't do that, his words, "We take care of our customers."

DT an CEO Nick   you have SO MUCH TO LEARN!

I for one encourage Thehun, an anyone else that tries to hold DT to their promise to deliver a "working" $2500 firearm. The squeaky wheel should receive the attention at this price point it deserves.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sawdustshot on May 31, 2018, 06:17:36 PM
TheHun, you are starting to sound like a second account for Hberetta.  Stirring the pot and trolling all the MDR threads is getting old.  Some of us have MDRs and are kinda committed to making them work at this point.  and yes, we realize the MDR is not measuring up to the standard of a $2500 gun.  The question we are all working through is; can it get there?  So if you have something helpful to add, by all means join the conversation.
Troll (verb):To make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

I have yet to see TheHun post anything fitting the definition of trolling. A bit of schadenfreude directed at DT? Probably, but given that they've gone beyond shooting themselves in the foot to dumping the whole mag, I can't blame him.

There have already been several ideas on how to fix just the cycling and IFAK, DT has been silent on the issue. If this is left to aftermarket to fix, how many parts is too many? At what point is the amount of effort and money to "get it there" too much?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Potss on May 31, 2018, 09:14:39 PM
If you think a SCAR is low recoil, try an AR10 with an adjustable gas block that has been tuned with lightweight recoil components (titanium BC + tubb spring + taccom buffer).  It will blow your mind.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on May 31, 2018, 10:18:48 PM
If you think a SCAR is low recoil, try an AR10 with an adjustable gas block that has been tuned with lightweight recoil components (titanium BC + tubb spring + taccom buffer).  It will blow your mind.

Just an adjustable gas block works wonders on most 308 ar's out there but very much this.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on May 31, 2018, 10:22:27 PM
I have "fixed" multi-million dollar industrial machinery for a living over some 30 years now. Much of that equipment was produced by corporations that are part of the US military industrial complex. Some have or still produce military aircraft and others were part of the space shuttle program. I can tell you from firsthand experience, everything these Tier-I manufactures produce require tuning and maintenance.

Name any auto manufacturer you think makes the best cars and/or trucks and I will bet a paycheck that there are "dealer mechanics" for that brand who make their living making warranty repairs on that brand's vehicles.

My early production Smith and Wesson M&P Sheild 9mm I bought new when they first came out around 2012 only had around 200 rounds down the barrel when my 13 year old grandson ran it the other day in a Tactical Response Fighting Pistol training class. It began to malfunction on the first day of the two-day training. The slide lock stopped retracting so when the slide locked open on the last round, racking the slide to the rear after a mag swap failed to send the slide home to chamber the next round.

I had him running the Mag Guts 10 round flat spring mag kits to give him 10 rounds instead of the Smith and Wesson 8 rounds so obviously that was the first thing I suspected of causing the malfunction. But switching to factory Smith 8 round Shield mags did not fix the problem. The Mag Guts 10 round conversions are in fact excellent performers with close to 1,000 rounds fed in the rain and being tossed into the mud without cleaning and zero glitches. I can safely recommend them now.

So my grandson had to do a workaround that first day where he had to hold down the slide release as he racked the slide to send it home. That sucked because it was an additional element he had to deal with on top of all of the new elements being introduced in the exercises on top of the fact he was having to do almost two mag swaps for every one mag swap everyone else running double stack pistols had to do.

A quick run to a local gunsmith after class revealed the slide release spring had failed on what was a practically new Sheild. And, to make it worse, the instructors and the gunsmith all said it was a common problem with the S&W Shield.

You know who I think was at fault?

Me!

Why? Simple. It was a firearm I own that I failed to learn and know enough about to anticipate this common issue and to have a spare spring for it and the tools required with me to replace it to keep it running the way it was designed to run. I have owned it many years so there is no excuse that it is a new purchase and I am still learning about it. I simply failed as an owner to learn about this firearm and be more knowledgeable in its strengths and weaknesses.

For those who say Smith and Wesson failed or the Shield sucks because of this particular issue that seems to be common, I say stick with Glocks because when Glocks fail they help the local economy here in Atlanta where all of the Glock warranty work is done in the US.  

The question I have is why do some MDR's run flawlessly and what percentage do run flawlessly verses those that obviously have some issues. That question needs to be answered before I can pass judgment on whether the MDR is a stinking turd or if there are production issues that require some tweaking on some MDRs.

As much as I would love to draw a scientific conclusion one way or the other about the MDR or DT right now, I simply do not have enough information to do so.

But I can draw an emotional conclusion at any point about anything and doing so really says more about me than the whatever it is I am praising or trashing.

I would like to know more about the actual causes of the relatively few incidents of MDR's ripping rims, FTF, and failing to extract issues that are being reported on this forum and across the interwebs for the same reasons I would have liked to have known more about my M&P Sheild's slide release spring possible problems that probably 99% of Sheild owners will never experience.

That's my interest in these types of threads.



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on May 31, 2018, 10:34:13 PM
If you think a SCAR is low recoil, try an AR10 with an adjustable gas block that has been tuned with lightweight recoil components (titanium BC + tubb spring + taccom buffer).  It will blow your mind.

AR-10's are hit or miss. Some run good, some have more problems than what we are reading about the MDR and others are an unknown number of rounds from breaking.

SEAL Teams are still running the SCAR-17 in combat with full support by Crane. Not to say there could never be a problem with a SCAR-17, but they are among the most reliable .308's ever made. And the SCAR-17 needs nothing but factory FN OEM parts to do what it does. Everything else including my Stryker brand PMAG conversion lower is just bling.

The only reason I would ever buy an AR-10 platform is if it were lighter weight than the SCAR-17. The POF Revolution at 7.3 pounds definitely has my interest, especially since it runs on an AR-15 lower.

The original AR-10's could be run in full automatic with one hand, so I stand corrected on the recoil issue. Please allow me to restate my comment thusly:

The SCAR-17 has the lightest recoil of any .308 I know of other than a well tuned AR-10 platform that may or may not be as reliable as the SCAR-17 and probably if it is, with few exceptions, will weigh more than the SCAR-17.  ;)


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on May 31, 2018, 10:45:32 PM
I use the same PWS compensator like the SCAR 17 on my LMT MWS...and I would say it reduces recoil by a TON...I mean... a ton...compared to a flash hider...it performs so well that if I trade the LMT MWS off for a TAVOR 7...it will come off and join me on that platform.

Yep. In fact I stopped using a suppressor on my SCAR-17 because I prefer the recoil reduction from the PWS brake, noise, concussion and all. 

It is a hard .308 brake to beat for recoil reduction on any .308 and it would be interesting to hear what someone with a well tuned low recoiling AR-10 thought about it. Can recoil be reduced to the point that the rifle tries to jump away from your shoulder and out of your hands?   ;D



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on May 31, 2018, 11:10:01 PM
My neighbor has a LaRue tactical AR10, i shot it unsuppressed and hot damn that thing is smooth and recoil was less than my 5.56 AR. To my understanding LaRue rifles are very reliable but also expensive.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: wagrn on May 31, 2018, 11:21:00 PM
Mityno1 are you in Tennessee?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on May 31, 2018, 11:35:46 PM
I use the same PWS compensator like the SCAR 17 on my LMT MWS...and I would say it reduces recoil by a TON...I mean... a ton...compared to a flash hider...it performs so well that if I trade the LMT MWS off for a TAVOR 7...it will come off and join me on that platform.

Yep. In fact I stopped using a suppressor on my SCAR-17 because I prefer the recoil reduction from the PWS brake, noise, concussion and all. 

It is a hard .308 brake to beat for recoil reduction on any .308 and it would be interesting to hear what someone with a well tuned low recoiling AR-10 thought about it. Can recoil be reduced to the point that the rifle tries to jump away from your shoulder and out of your hands?   ;D



I have a PWS brake on my GA Precision AR 10. It's a sweet shooting gun. Those guys know how to build em. Going from that to the MDR was ... jarring. I put the Precision Armament EFAB on the MDR and its not bad. Sure helps but it kicks up a ton of dirt from the prone.  Thinking to going back to PWS for the .223.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on June 01, 2018, 12:31:11 AM
Mityno1 are you in Tennessee?

No, but I've been to Camden TN and hope to return many more times before my number is called.  8)

I'm a Georgia native and I still reside in GA. My work takes me throughout the Atlanta/North Georgia area.  I grew up around Mabelton area not far from where the Glock factory in Smyrna is now and near where Hard Times Armory that did so many conversion back in the day (RIP JD Farmer) used to be. And I wasn't far from where most of the MAC10's and MAC11's were produced in Powder Springs the 70's and 80's by the dubious Sylvia and Wayne Daniel and where Mitchell WerBell III (RIP Mitch) ran his compound with Jason Lau who still runs a Wing Chun Dojo in Smyrna.

I pass through "Gun Town USA" (Kennesaw) fairly frequently where the local law states you must own a firearm if you are a head of household (unless you are a felon or object to this law). TAPCO started there and still has operations there but when Remmington acquired them they moved the customer support to Mississippi.

I also pass through Lawrenceville where AAC used to be before Remmington bought them and they moved to AL. Back when AAC got SAAMI certification for .300 Blackout.

Are you in TN wagrn? If so, what part?

 


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: wagrn on June 01, 2018, 05:05:18 AM
Mityno1 are you in Tennessee?

No, but I've been to Camden TN and hope to return many more times before my number is called.  8)

I'm a Georgia native and I still reside in GA. My work takes me throughout the Atlanta/North Georgia area.  I grew up around Mabelton area not far from where the Glock factory in Smyrna is now and near where Hard Times Armory that did so many conversion back in the day (RIP JD Farmer) used to be. And I wasn't far from where most of the MAC10's and MAC11's were produced in Powder Springs the 70's and 80's by the dubious Sylvia and Wayne Daniel and where Mitchell WerBell III (RIP Mitch) ran his compound with Jason Lau who still runs a Wing Chun Dojo in Smyrna.

I pass through "Gun Town USA" (Kennesaw) fairly frequently where the local law states you must own a firearm if you are a head of household (unless you are a felon or object to this law). TAPCO started there and still has operations there but when Remmington acquired them they moved the customer support to Mississippi.

I also pass through Lawrenceville where AAC used to be before Remmington bought them and they moved to AL. Back when AAC got SAAMI certification for .300 Blackout.

Are you in TN wagrn? If so, what part?

Thompson's Station/Franklin little south of Nashville.
 


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sdevante on June 01, 2018, 09:49:09 AM

Thompson's Station/Franklin little south of Nashville.
 

Thompson's Station is quite lovely. Almost bought a house out there.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: wagrn on June 01, 2018, 12:28:47 PM
Yes it is, like all of the county it is getting more crowded everyday.  Love it though, going to try to get some shooting/riding ground in one of the surrounding counties.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on June 08, 2018, 01:29:20 AM
Just saw this pop up.

InRangeTV
AZ2G - SCAR 17 "Heavy" - Stage 2 - SCAR no workie
https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ (https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ)

turns out you can choke a SCAR too.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on June 08, 2018, 02:43:40 AM
I have run between 1,200 and 1,400 rounds of ZQI through my Scar 17 with zero hiccups.

But my first time cleaning it, I found the three piston gas rings had all of the gaps aligned together.  I discovered this when trying to figure out why it was so dirty from the first few dozen rounds. Of course, I staggered the rings 180* and it runs much cleaner now. Longest run between cleaning and lubing was 800 rounds over a couple of months. It was still running fine when I cleaned it, but I do run the bolt wetter than most.

Dirty and dry will cause problems in almost any semi-auto.  If you find yourself in the middle of the zombie apocalypse and no firearm maintenance supplies, you can use motor oil from the dipstick of any car you find to keep your bolts running.

If you are in below zero temps, mix around 5% gasoline with the motor oil you are lubing your guns with. That's what the Russians did in WWII to keep their rifles running while the Germans could not get their frozen guns to cycle, even their bolt guns were frozen and had to be warmed to cycle.

Here is the video that precedes the malfunction video where they talk about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D8ktSBxfgg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D8ktSBxfgg)


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: wagrn on June 08, 2018, 01:39:11 PM
Question for you guys would it make any difference on break in to go ahead and install the new six position block or just do the first 200 with stock block?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on June 08, 2018, 01:41:03 PM
While I would say that any gun however it ships should function 100% with said parts...with the MDR...I would not follow that rule and install the new plug if you have it...but it really doesnt matter because the instructions from DT is to run it in Adverse for the first 200rds...they are the same setting on both plugs I believe.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on June 08, 2018, 06:26:49 PM
Just saw this pop up.

InRangeTV
AZ2G - SCAR 17 "Heavy" - Stage 2 - SCAR no workie
https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ (https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ)

turns out you can choke a SCAR too.

Let's put this in proper context...the SCAR that Ian and Karl were using had been tweaked by the owner to run suppressed with the minimal amount of gas being used and had a custom gas plug to make reduce the amount of gas fed to the piston.  Had it been stock, I doubt they would have seen any issues.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on June 08, 2018, 08:59:17 PM
Just saw this pop up.

InRangeTV
AZ2G - SCAR 17 "Heavy" - Stage 2 - SCAR no workie
https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ (https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ)

turns out you can choke a SCAR too.

Let's put this in proper context...the SCAR that Ian and Karl were using had been tweaked by the owner to run suppressed with the minimal amount of gas being used and had a custom gas plug to make reduce the amount of gas fed to the piston.  Had it been stock, I doubt they would have seen any issues.

Just pointing out how tweaking a gas system can change things quick on a piston gun.  Hoping the new plug is what the MDR needed. Got mine in yesterday and the quality difference is noticeable. The MDR should not have shipped without them.  The detents are more positive, the adjustment is over a much wider range(which apparently was needed), and the ability to adjust it from the end with a screw driver is nice.  Over all the machining looked cleaner, with a nice notch to indicate the install position.  Having to pay almost $70 after shipping to get something that should have been on the gun when I got it is insulting...  Heading out in the morning to sling some lead. We'll see how it goes.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on June 08, 2018, 10:08:42 PM
I got mine yesterday also
It is not sleeved and there is one step in the valve near the back end.
I will try to get some measurements and upload pics incase any know tha math to figure out the volume differencr from it and the original.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on June 08, 2018, 11:29:13 PM
Just pointing out how tweaking a gas system can change things quick on a piston gun.  Hoping the new plug is what the MDR needed. Got mine in yesterday and the quality difference is noticeable. The MDR should not have shipped without them.  The detents are more positive, the adjustment is over a much wider range(which apparently was needed), and the ability to adjust it from the end with a screw driver is nice.  Over all the machining looked cleaner, with a nice notch to indicate the install position.  Having to pay almost $70 after shipping to get something that should have been on the gun when I got it is insulting...  Heading out in the morning to sling some lead. We'll see how it goes.

It might help one or two of the variables in the equation, but when the firearm won't even hand cycle (pull the bolt back on a loaded PMag and let it cycle forward under spring pressure) and load a round without crushing the shoulder, incurring bullet setback, or for that matter, eject a live round through the chute by manually cycling the action back on an empty mag (or no mag) and letting the bolt fly forward, there are issues far beyond a flaky gas plug.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: HBeretta on June 09, 2018, 12:05:06 AM
or for that matter, eject a live round through the chute by manually cycling the action back on an empty mag (or no mag) and letting the bolt fly forward, there are issues far beyond a flaky gas plug.

lol...you lost me with this one kurt.  why wouldn't it eject a live round on an empty or no mag when manually cycled?  all other guns do it.  rdb with live round will eject the live round downward.  fs2000 will eject live round out the front chute....etc...  and, as designed, the mdr ejects the live round out the ejection chute on an empty or no mag when manually cycled.

now on an empty mag the live round will slide to the chute and remain until the bolt is released...subsequently flying forward once done.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on June 09, 2018, 12:06:01 AM
Just pointing out how tweaking a gas system can change things quick on a piston gun.  Hoping the new plug is what the MDR needed. Got mine in yesterday and the quality difference is noticeable. The MDR should not have shipped without them.  The detents are more positive, the adjustment is over a much wider range(which apparently was needed), and the ability to adjust it from the end with a screw driver is nice.  Over all the machining looked cleaner, with a nice notch to indicate the install position.  Having to pay almost $70 after shipping to get something that should have been on the gun when I got it is insulting...  Heading out in the morning to sling some lead. We'll see how it goes.

It might help one or two of the variables in the equation, but when the firearm won't even hand cycle (pull the bolt back on a loaded PMag and let it cycle forward under spring pressure) and load a round without crushing the shoulder, incurring bullet setback, or for that matter, eject a live round through the chute by manually cycling the action back on an empty mag (or no mag) and letting the bolt fly forward, there are issues far beyond a flaky gas plug.

  I think one of the reasons the MDR is having so many issues cycling is the action is not energy efficient. From the low feed ramps, to the numerous snag points there is just a ton of stuff that slows it down.  Case in point (no pun intended), looking over the ejection chute paw that holds the round or spent case, the edges have sharp angles rather than radius edges.

  Take a spent case and push it through the chute and you will notice the rim of the case catches on the edge of the paw, and the side of the paw gouges the side of the case.  Now remember that each cycle of the action has to push out a spent case, and you start to see the problem.

  Each time I pop off the chute there is a pile of brass shavings in the back of the case cavity.  I guarantee the edges of the paw are what is causing it.  Really thinking about knocking off those edges off but it would be really obvious if i needed to send it in to DT, so I think I'll hold off for now.  Smoothing the edges would eliminate the snag, and prevent the case damage typical of the MDR chute. Probably looks fine in a CAD drawing or simulator, but a close eye and some hand testing reveals the problem.

  The lower feedramps, and the sloppy magwell are also issues that are compounding these other problems, but I think that might be a conscious design element for the .223 conversion. Machining problems are most definitely hindering the MDR though.  That bur on the feedramp of mine was horrible. The 200 round break in didn't phase it.  I'm sure if DT isn't cleaning up those cuts there are all kinds of problems with peoples barrel extensions. You screw those up and you're not going to cycle anything.

Coldbore if you're seeing this, you guys need a user feedback link on your website, or a end user questionnaire we can fill out.  People are catching all kinds of things you guys need to know about.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on June 09, 2018, 12:19:13 AM
or for that matter, eject a live round through the chute by manually cycling the action back on an empty mag (or no mag) and letting the bolt fly forward, there are issues far beyond a flaky gas plug.

lol...you lost me with this one kurt.  why wouldn't it eject a live round on an empty or no mag when manually cycled?  all other guns do it.  rdb with live round will eject the live round downward.  fs2000 will eject live round out the front chute....etc...  and, as designed, the mdr ejects the live round out the ejection chute on an empty or no mag when manually cycled.

now on an empty mag the live round will slide to the chute and remain until the bolt is released...subsequently flying forward once done.

Because when the action is cycled, the tip of the bullet nosedives back toward the interior of the rifle and misses the opening, only to get caught with the cartridge pushed forward enough that the bullet tip is trapped on the inside side of the hatch frame and the bolt/bolt carrier then proceeds  to crush the side of the cartridge facing the inside of the rifle.  There was at least one picture of this floating around recently that showed the cartridge held by the spring in the chute, but pushed forward enough that the bullet was behind the chute frame.



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on June 09, 2018, 12:22:59 AM
Coldbore if you're seeing this, you guys need a user feedback link on your website, or a end user questionnaire we can fill out.  People are catching all kinds of things you guys need to know about.

A very big +1.  I would also add that there should be some form of official and *regular* DT interaction with the owners via this or their own forum (the last comment in DT's MDR subforum was 6/21/2016).  That said, I can understand their hesitancy to do so given the animosity, snark, and just plain rudeness that has thrived on the public forums regarding their product.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: HBeretta on June 09, 2018, 12:49:06 AM
or for that matter, eject a live round through the chute by manually cycling the action back on an empty mag (or no mag) and letting the bolt fly forward, there are issues far beyond a flaky gas plug.

lol...you lost me with this one kurt.  why wouldn't it eject a live round on an empty or no mag when manually cycled?  all other guns do it.  rdb with live round will eject the live round downward.  fs2000 will eject live round out the front chute....etc...  and, as designed, the mdr ejects the live round out the ejection chute on an empty or no mag when manually cycled.

now on an empty mag the live round will slide to the chute and remain until the bolt is released...subsequently flying forward once done.

Because when the action is cycled, the tip of the bullet nosedives back toward the interior of the rifle and misses the opening, only to get caught with the cartridge pushed forward enough that the bullet tip is trapped on the inside side of the hatch frame and the bolt/bolt carrier then proceeds  to crush the side of the cartridge facing the inside of the rifle.  There was at least one picture of this floating around recently that showed the cartridge held by the spring in the chute, but pushed forward enough that the bullet was behind the chute frame.



i understood your initial post but overlooked you implying that it won't eject out the chute AS WELL...a result of the bullet nosediving and so on, rather than normal function.

in any case, the numerous issues are disappointing.  most of all the delays up to release were due to testing.  i'd hope for bad QC or cheap vended parts as culprits rather than inherent design.  gas plug aside, i'm hoping the former and not the latter seeing as i do like the rifle features.  imagine a high(er) quality, problem free MDR...owners would be whistling zipadeedoodah out of their assholes.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: EWTHeckman on June 09, 2018, 11:16:04 AM
Just saw this pop up.

InRangeTV
AZ2G - SCAR 17 "Heavy" - Stage 2 - SCAR no workie
https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ (https://youtu.be/nM0LV4XQIDQ)

turns out you can choke a SCAR too.

Let's put this in proper context...the SCAR that Ian and Karl were using had been tweaked by the owner to run suppressed with the minimal amount of gas being used and had a custom gas plug to make reduce the amount of gas fed to the piston.  Had it been stock, I doubt they would have seen any issues.

This morning they posted a mud test of that SCAR. Before doing it they reinstalled the factory gas plug. The rifle passed with flying colors. The only problem they had turned out to be a dud round.

https://www.full30.com/video/7f46bac73b8004e78bcf83ec8aa6953d (https://www.full30.com/video/7f46bac73b8004e78bcf83ec8aa6953d)


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 09, 2018, 12:07:23 PM
I smoothed the sharp edge on the shell holder in the ejection chute almost right away when I couldn't eject cases by hand.

Ejection problems are one of the few issues I haven't had ever since.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on June 09, 2018, 08:24:37 PM
I smoothed the sharp edge on the shell holder in the ejection chute almost right away when I couldn't eject cases by hand.

Ejection problems are one of the few issues I haven't had ever since.

Do you believe this is something that you *should* have had to do so that it would be reliable or that it should have come from the factory with it already done?  If this was a used Hi-Point carbine, I wouldn't mind taking a Dremel to it, but it's a $2500 rifle from what has been known as a premium manufacturer; this should have been right when it was taken from the box.

That little rant over, I have to wonder who much pressure from the public played in DT releasing it before the bugs were completely worked out.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Potss on June 09, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
I smoothed the sharp edge on the shell holder in the ejection chute almost right away when I couldn't eject cases by hand.

Ejection problems are one of the few issues I haven't had ever since.

Do you believe this is something that you *should* have had to do so that it would be reliable or that it should have come from the factory with it already done?  If this was a used Hi-Point carbine, I wouldn't mind taking a Dremel to it, but it's a $2500 rifle from what has been known as a premium manufacturer; this should have been right when it was taken from the box.

That little rant over, I have to wonder who much pressure from the public played in DT releasing it before the bugs were completely worked out.


It clearly had little to no effect.  They were more than happy to sit around and take free loans till competition started to emerge and eat market share/potential customers.

If they'd done 1/10th of the testing they'd claimed to do (and you know, acted on the results), then the rifle would be in MUCH better shape than it is now.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on June 09, 2018, 10:24:20 PM
^^Agreed.

Before you know it...all these little DIY engineering work will turn into a MDR tune shop somewhere and make a buck... >:D >:D >:D


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on June 09, 2018, 11:41:45 PM
or for that matter, eject a live round through the chute by manually cycling the action back on an empty mag (or no mag) and letting the bolt fly forward, there are issues far beyond a flaky gas plug.

lol...you lost me with this one kurt.  why wouldn't it eject a live round on an empty or no mag when manually cycled?  all other guns do it.  rdb with live round will eject the live round downward.  fs2000 will eject live round out the front chute....etc...  and, as designed, the mdr ejects the live round out the ejection chute on an empty or no mag when manually cycled.

now on an empty mag the live round will slide to the chute and remain until the bolt is released...subsequently flying forward once done.

Because when the action is cycled, the tip of the bullet nosedives back toward the interior of the rifle and misses the opening, only to get caught with the cartridge pushed forward enough that the bullet tip is trapped on the inside side of the hatch frame and the bolt/bolt carrier then proceeds  to crush the side of the cartridge facing the inside of the rifle.  There was at least one picture of this floating around recently that showed the cartridge held by the spring in the chute, but pushed forward enough that the bullet was behind the chute frame.



If this is happening it is operator induced.  This topic has been brought up several times.  The scissor mechanism requires a certain amount of force to correctly push the cartridge out to the ejection chute.  If you ride the charging handle you will induce a malfunction every time.  Never had a problem ejecting live rounds after I realized this.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on June 09, 2018, 11:52:01 PM
  Hit the range today with the new 6 position gas plug.  Man what a difference. Put on number 3 and left it there.  I ran 100 rounds through it at everything from a slow fire, to mag dump speed.  Not a single hiccup.  Looking closely at the brass the extractor marks were so light I had a hard time finding some of them.  So i confirmed my earlier hypothesis, this is not an upgrade, its mandatory.  With over 1K rounds I was still getting case damage with M80, and torn rims with M118LR using the sleeved 3 position plug.  Going to stop messing with it for awhile and reset the "rounds fired since malfunction clock". Lets see how it goes.  Over all a great time shooting the MDR today.  Ran reliably and pulled 1 MOA easily.



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: thehun on June 09, 2018, 11:57:07 PM
Let's hope it keeps ticking away. Great to hear.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Box on June 10, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
  Hit the range today with the new 6 position gas plug.  Man what a difference. Put on number 3 and left it there.  I ran 100 rounds through it at everything from a slow fire, to mag dump speed.  Not a single hiccup.  Looking closely at the brass the extractor marks were so light I had a hard time finding some of them.  So i confirmed my earlier hypothesis, this is not an upgrade, its mandatory.  With over 1K rounds I was still getting case damage with M80, and torn rims with M118LR using the sleeved 3 position plug.  Going to stop messing with it for awhile and reset the "rounds fired since malfunction clock". Lets see how it goes.  Over all a great time shooting the MDR today.  Ran reliably and pulled 1 MOA easily.

That's some much needed good news.  I'm curious how it'll do now with various types of ammo.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: kfeltenberger on June 10, 2018, 01:38:51 AM
If this is happening it is operator induced.  This topic has been brought up several times.  The scissor mechanism requires a certain amount of force to correctly push the cartridge out to the ejection chute.  If you ride the charging handle you will induce a malfunction every time.  Never had a problem ejecting live rounds after I realized this.

I'm glad you don't have this issue, but that doesn't belay the fact that some do/have had the issue.  The incident I refer to was not caused by "operator error"...


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: mityno1 on June 10, 2018, 02:26:40 AM
Can you buy the shell holder and if so for how much $?

I ask because if it cheap to replace then having a spare one to polish while being able to put the original unmolested one back in is what I would recommend. 

It sounds like an opportunity for a small parts fabricator to offer a polished after market replacement. 


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 10, 2018, 08:47:18 AM
I literally took about 30 seconds with a knife sharpening stone to just dull the sharp edge and it fixed all my issue. The difference in the amount of force it took to snap a casing into the chute before and after was significant.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Zeiram3f on June 10, 2018, 09:26:28 AM
Care to share a photo of your work? I know there's not a 'before and after', but I'd at least like to see the after and compare it to my before.

Thanks in advance  8)


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 10, 2018, 10:10:23 AM
Not much material removed at all. Turned the knife edge into a ramp pretty much.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on June 10, 2018, 12:17:35 PM
Not much material removed at all. Turned the knife edge into a ramp pretty much.

 Good work Newguys2k3.  Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.  Looks like the piece is held in by a captive pin/spring at the back.  Watching them install it they just push it in from the outside, which would support this theory. Its at 1:48  Video is great at .25 speed.
https://youtu.be/xgwj3OG3Nag (https://youtu.be/xgwj3OG3Nag)
 Just need something to pull those pins back a bit and it should pop out.  It would be really easy to knock off the sharp edges with some fine abrasive, then polish it up, pop it back in and you are good to go.
  Thinking this is a major issue with the current guns.  You could reduce drag on the system at two points by removing the catch point going into, and as it is pushed out of the chute.   Would change the chute to a nice hug and push, instead of a chew and rip. :D


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Articlion on June 10, 2018, 12:52:04 PM
I literally took about 30 seconds with a knife sharpening stone to just dull the sharp edge and it fixed all my issue. The difference in the amount of force it took to snap a casing into the chute before and after was significant.
Well thatís  1 voided warranty and 1 less riffle dt will have to worry about


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 10, 2018, 01:16:00 PM
I literally took about 30 seconds with a knife sharpening stone to just dull the sharp edge and it fixed all my issue. The difference in the amount of force it took to snap a casing into the chute before and after was significant.
Well thatís  1 voided warranty and 1 less riffle dt will have to worry about

Frankly I don't give a damn. The gun went back to DT within days of me receiving it with explicit explanation of the issues it had, what worked, what didn't. Guess what. It still didn't work right when I got it back. I have little patience for incompetence. So far the little things I have done have only made the rifle work more like it should have in the first place.

If you're completely helpless, lack tools and are not mechanically competent then by all means send any little item you have issues with back to the manufacturer and hope they handle the issue.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 10, 2018, 01:17:50 PM
Not much material removed at all. Turned the knife edge into a ramp pretty much.

 Good work Newguys2k3.  Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.  Looks like the piece is held in by a captive pin/spring at the back.  Watching them install it they just push it in from the outside, which would support this theory. Its at 1:48  Video is great at .25 speed.
https://youtu.be/xgwj3OG3Nag (https://youtu.be/xgwj3OG3Nag)
 Just need something to pull those pins back a bit and it should pop out.  It would be really easy to knock off the sharp edges with some fine abrasive, then polish it up, pop it back in and you are good to go.
  Thinking this is a major issue with the current guns.  You could reduce drag on the system at two points by removing the catch point going into, and as it is pushed out of the chute.   Would change the chute to a nice hug and push, instead of a chew and rip. :D


I didn't even take it out. Just a few swipes with a diamond stone was all it took.

If someone wanted quantifiable answers I suppose you could measure the amount of force it takes to snap a case into and out of the ejection chute in stock form and then with the edge smoothed out.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: GoShort on June 10, 2018, 02:25:29 PM
New gas block measurements best i can get.
I did not even attempt to measure the gas ports
Inckuding a pic you can see the ledge inside the gas chamber.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/b50031e5e4687c8f1b2b8144936930f0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/ca28189c230d11961586454a8625c8c3.jpg)

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 10, 2018, 03:51:16 PM
Copy and paste from the MDR owners group on Facebook.

1-0.015"
2-0.026"
  (S-0.030")
3-0.037"
4-0.041" (also Normal)
5-0.044"
6-0.049" (also Adverse)


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: AF Gunner on June 12, 2018, 10:22:08 AM
The measurements above are mine and I used a pin gauge set to check.

I also used a stone to knock down the sharp edges on the ejection chute paw. It does less damage to the brass now. there are still few area of the paw I would like to debur but I need to take the paw out of the chute to get to them. I also took a fired steel case and worked it by hand through the chute several hundred times trying to wear down any other areas I missed. Not sure if it did anything but I did it anyway.

Gunner


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 12, 2018, 09:11:28 PM
Range report with the new gas valve.

40.5gr Tac, 175smk, LC 1x brass, #34 primer. Surefire Sps-300

Started off on #2.
One round, locked back.
2 rounds, fed and locked back.
Switched to #1
One round, locked back
2 rounds, fed and locked back
Loaded 5 and had stovepipish failure with carrier not moving rearward enough to eject spent case.
Switched back to setting 2 and fired 4 remaining.
Loaded the remaining of the 20rds from that mag.
Made it to #18 and the ejector panel popped loose. Never had that happen before and it jammed the case in between the bolt and charging mechanism. Had to dig it out with a screwdriver. It would bind up the charging mechanism and the tension on the case was never relieved. Cleared that and round 19 stuck in the chamber. I didn't have a cleaning rod with me because I thought I was past that but apparently not. It popped out easily with the weight of the rod when I got home.

I hadn't had any stuck case failures in 80 or 100 rounds so this was odd. I was hoping I could get to the bottom of the dead trigger issues I had been having though.

It hasn't been out of the safe in 2-3 months. Probably be another 2-3 before I feel like being disappointed again.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Blackandwhiteknight on June 12, 2018, 11:56:53 PM
Range report with the new gas valve.

40.5gr Tac, 175smk, LC 1x brass, #34 primer. Surefire Sps-300

Started off on #2.
One round, locked back.
2 rounds, fed and locked back.
Switched to #1
One round, locked back
2 rounds, fed and locked back
Loaded 5 and had stovepipish failure with carrier not moving rearward enough to eject spent case.
Switched back to setting 2 and fired 4 remaining.
Loaded the remaining of the 20rds from that mag.
Made it to #18 and the ejector panel popped loose. Never had that happen before and it jammed the case in between the bolt and charging mechanism. Had to dig it out with a screwdriver. It would bind up the charging mechanism and the tension on the case was never relieved. Cleared that and round 19 stuck in the chamber. I didn't have a cleaning rod with me because I thought I was past that but apparently not. It popped out easily with the weight of the rod when I got home.

I hadn't had any stuck case failures in 80 or 100 rounds so this was odd. I was hoping I could get to the bottom of the dead trigger issues I had been having though.

It hasn't been out of the safe in 2-3 months. Probably be another 2-3 before I feel like being disappointed again.


Unless you are running a suppressor the #3 setting is what you want. I've found it works great on mine.  If you are getting a dead trigger I would start looking real hard to see if the bolt is going all the way into battery.

 A quick way to do a in battery check is to look for the little half round tab on the bolt in this window.  I should look like this if its in battery.

(https://s19.postimg.cc/3jqptizn7/KIMG0558.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bp8rronvz/)

 If you are having issues I would look at your barrel extension and feed ramps first.  I had a really bad bur on my feedramps that was causing a lot of drag.  I also just posted a thread about cleaning up the ejection chute which will help cut down on drag on the bolt.  You may want to try some light bullets and see how they do.   Mine doesn't like the heavier stuff.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: dmitry on June 13, 2018, 02:10:23 AM
Why don't they include this as standard in the rifle?


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: newguy2k3 on June 13, 2018, 08:02:13 AM
I'm running a suppressor so that's why I bought the 6pos valve for the lower settings. I filed the ejection chute catch. I was probably one of the very first if not the first to do that. I haven't looked at the feed ramps that closely but I doubt that is the source of my issue since #1 isn't enough gas to reliably cycle but #2 apparently still rips off case rims.


Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: Sdevante on June 13, 2018, 07:25:28 PM
#1 isn't enough gas to reliably cycle but #2 apparently still rips off case rims.

It is crazy to me that even with the 6 position gas valve, something is still off. I haven't had a chance to shoot mine after receiving the new gas valve, but now I'm even more curious to see how it goes.



Title: Re: New Gas Valve available for purchase
Post by: bruteandbear1 on June 14, 2018, 11:51:12 AM
Can you buy the shell holder and if so for how much $?

I ask because if it cheap to replace then having a spare one to polish while being able to put the original unmolested one back in is what I would recommend. 

It sounds like an opportunity for a small parts fabricator to offer a polished after market replacement. 

Molestation is bad M-KAY!