BULLPUP FORUM

Bullpup Rifles (Auto & Semi-Auto Centerfire) => Desert Tech MDR => Topic started by: ShootingSight on November 22, 2017, 11:21:09 AM



Title: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on November 22, 2017, 11:21:09 AM
Wow, hats off to Desert Tech.  I contacted them about doing an after-market trigger development for the MDR, and they have been the easiest and most enthusiastic company to deal with of any rifle company I have run across.

I started with an e-mail to the owner, who answered within a day, and copied (I presume) their legal counsel to get a CDA in place with me.  A few days later, a CDA arrives for me to sign.  A few days after that, one of the designers contacts me for figure out which CAD files I need, and they show up in e-mail a day later.

So now that I have a draft design done, and need some specifics about how the trigger pack interacts with the activation rod, I called and asked them to send me a lower with an installed trigger pack.  Yesterday I got a FedEx notofication that it is on its way.

I've talked to lots of companies, and lots of them appreciate that after market products are a good thing.  But I have not met any who were this helpful and responsive in making it happen.

Art


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: coldboremiracle on November 22, 2017, 11:46:26 AM
I always though the N and D in NDA meant Non-Disclosure, ie not disclosing.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Box on November 22, 2017, 11:51:49 AM
Thatís great to hear.  After so much earned negativity by DT, this is certainly much-needed positive news.

Your triggers are great, so I canít wait to see what youíre able to do.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: readr1 on November 22, 2017, 12:24:24 PM
Good to know!  Put me down for two please!


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: HBeretta on November 22, 2017, 01:20:16 PM
I always though the N and D in NDA meant Non-Disclosure, ie not disclosing.

Appears Art interpreted it as Now-Divulge-All.  Great news nonetheless.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: hillbillyjim on November 22, 2017, 04:04:37 PM
sounds like a company thatís in it and not folding which is good to see


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Whoops on November 22, 2017, 04:53:40 PM
I always though the N and D in NDA meant Non-Disclosure, ie not disclosing.
An NDA can only preclude you from revealing specified information.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: HamSpoon89 on November 22, 2017, 06:15:34 PM
Well I hope the NDA mixup doesn't mean no triggers.  Because the more aftermarket the MDR has, the more likely it is to succeed and we all want that!


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Kublah on November 22, 2017, 06:25:46 PM
This is very exciting to hear. Aftermarket support for the MDR, or any firearm is always a very positive thing, and the more, the better. I hope you are poking fun CBM. Any discouragement for aftermarket support would be disappointing. I can understand if he had made any promises or revealed anything proprietary.  I believe he is helping throw open the doors for anyone interested by proclaiming what an excellent company DT is to work with.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: spector762 on November 22, 2017, 07:32:59 PM
I'm Interested in it if it's a 2 stage btw what company do you represent? Give me some details I mih pre order


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Lead_Whisperer on November 22, 2017, 07:44:50 PM
Quote
I'm Interested in it if it's a 2 stage btw what company do you represent? Give me some details I mih pre order

His user ID is the company


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on November 22, 2017, 08:17:29 PM
Great news. I've reduced the sear engagement some on mine by removing material from the hammer and it's not as long of a pull now but there is still little to no feel for when it's going to break.

Also I might recommend, if DT doesn't correct it, come up with a new trigger bar that captures the lever on the trigger pack so that it can't fire unless the trigger bar moves forward. As it is now the safety blocks trigger bar movement but in the event of a drop r other event the trigger lever on the pack can still fire.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ExaltedVanguard on November 23, 2017, 11:49:45 AM
I always though the N and D in NDA meant Non-Disclosure, ie not disclosing.
The NDA was likely regarding not sharing the CAD files and such.

Otherwise it would be akin to "you can develop your product but can't tell anyone it exists" which would be nonsensical...


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on November 23, 2017, 12:32:06 PM
Someone working on a trigger upgrade for the mdr is good news. I would think it would be good for dt too.

The mdr needs every bit of good news it can get.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on November 24, 2017, 01:44:43 PM
CDA, Confidential Disclosure Agreement, is an agreement on how I will handle their confidential trigger design specifics, ie their CAD files or other internal information I might get about the trigger design that I agree to keep confidential.  

The term NDA you are thinking of typically refers to settlements, where even the agreement is secret.  That is not the case here.

My intention here is to re-apply design principles I have learned making other RPS triggers.  So the design will be 2-stage.  Critical components (ie sear edges) will all be CNC machined from Rolled Plate Tool Steel - I won't use cast parts anywhere.  Sear surfaces will be lapped, and have a NiB coating, which is both high hardness, and low friction.  It ought to be good.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Sdevante on November 24, 2017, 05:46:23 PM
Whatís the over/under on whether I receive this trigger before I receive the MDR I ordered years ago? 😬


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: spector762 on November 24, 2017, 06:37:29 PM
CDA, Confidential Disclosure Agreement, is an agreement on how I will handle their confidential trigger design specifics, ie their CAD files or other internal information I might get about the trigger design that I agree to keep confidential.  

The term NDA you are thinking of typically refers to settlements, where even the agreement is secret.  That is not the case here.

My intention here is to re-apply design principles I have learned making other RPS triggers.  So the design will be 2-stage.  Critical components (ie sear edges) will all be CNC machined from Rolled Plate Tool Steel - I won't use cast parts anywhere.  Sear surfaces will be lapped, and have a NiB coating, which is both high hardness, and low friction.  It ought to be good.
will you take pre orders


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on November 24, 2017, 06:59:08 PM
Sorry, no.  I will not do 'pre-orders'.  I learned the lesson on the backs of others, that pre-orders are a risky thing.  If this were a development where I needed funding, I might consider it.  However I can afford the development, and I have spent way too many years in R&D to know that very few things go as quickly as originally intended; between other priorities, unexpected setbacks, etc.  If you do pre-orders, you risk upsetting people when you run late ... and you will run late.

So I would rather NOT take pre-orders, and simply wait till I have a product I'm comfortable shipping.  That said, I have done a 'sign up list' sort of thing, where you can get your name on a list, but it is purely a courtesy - I won't take money, but I'll get you on some priority list.  I'll put a note out if I decide to start that.

At the end of the day, I'm like every other retired guy I know, where you retire from a job of 30+ years, expecting that now you have LOTS of free time, so you take on lots of projects.  And before you know it, you are working more hours than you ever worked when you had a 'real' job.  So I have a prototype trigger for the PS90, for the MP5, and the FNS/509 pistol that are just sitting there waiting for me to move.  Then this MDR comes along, and I want nothing to do with it .... except that it is a cool rifle, and I can 'see' how to redesign the trigger ... so dammit, this low priority project just became higher priority.  In the olden days with a real job, I had managers who decided the priorities.  Now that I am retired, it is what appeals that drives priorities.  I love it!


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: 50BMG on November 27, 2017, 10:34:24 AM
I look forward to purchasing your product when you are finished, thanks.  :)


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: INV136 on November 27, 2017, 05:07:36 PM
If your trigger is a significant improvement over the MDR stock trigger, I will too.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Radius13 on November 27, 2017, 06:10:04 PM
Ich auch.

Das ist alles.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: spector762 on November 27, 2017, 07:41:25 PM
CDA, Confidential Disclosure Agreement, is an agreement on how I will handle their confidential trigger design specifics, ie their CAD files or other internal information I might get about the trigger design that I agree to keep confidential.  

The term NDA you are thinking of typically refers to settlements, where even the agreement is secret.  That is not the case here.

My intention here is to re-apply design principles I have learned making other RPS triggers.  So the design will be 2-stage.  Critical components (ie sear edges) will all be CNC machined from Rolled Plate Tool Steel - I won't use cast parts anywhere.  Sear surfaces will be lapped, and have a NiB coating, which is both high hardness, and low friction.  It ought to be good.
if this trigger breaks much more predictable put me at the top of your list I'm Down


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on November 27, 2017, 08:24:47 PM
If you need any beta testers along the way I'm in. I kinda already am with the rifle itself anyway.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Rick53 on December 01, 2017, 11:07:23 AM
Sorry, no.  I will not do 'pre-orders'.  I learned the lesson on the backs of others, that pre-orders are a risky thing.  If this were a development where I needed funding, I might consider it.  However I can afford the development, and I have spent way too many years in R&D to know that very few things go as quickly as originally intended; between other priorities, unexpected setbacks, etc.  If you do pre-orders, you risk upsetting people when you run late ... and you will run late.

So I would rather NOT take pre-orders, and simply wait till I have a product I'm comfortable shipping.  That said, I have done a 'sign up list' sort of thing, where you can get your name on a list, but it is purely a courtesy - I won't take money, but I'll get you on some priority list.  I'll put a note out if I decide to start that.

At the end of the day, I'm like every other retired guy I know, where you retire from a job of 30+ years, expecting that now you have LOTS of free time, so you take on lots of projects.  And before you know it, you are working more hours than you ever worked when you had a 'real' job.  So I have a prototype trigger for the PS90, for the MP5, and the FNS/509 pistol that are just sitting there waiting for me to move.  Then this MDR comes along, and I want nothing to do with it .... except that it is a cool rifle, and I can 'see' how to redesign the trigger ... so dammit, this low priority project just became higher priority.  In the olden days with a real job, I had managers who decided the priorities.  Now that I am retired, it is what appeals that drives priorities.  I love it!
  A LIST????? Are you Crazy  ;)


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on December 02, 2017, 09:42:09 AM
LOL.  Rick, If I start a 'list', I'll recruit you to run it, because I'm not crazy enough to try to do it .....

For everyone else, in the startup days as the Tavor was exploding on the market, and I had a HUGE amount of following as I was the first company to start shipping Tavor triggers, though I could not keep up.  I didn't have the capitol, or a view on the size of the market, so I'd make a batch, and they's sell out in weeks, so there was a lot of good reviews out there, and simultaneoulsy a lot of 'out of stock'.

Rick53 contacted and offered to step in and undertake the thankless job of managing a list for people, so we could track who was interested, what data did they sign up, had they responded to our emails once we informed them the triggers were back in stock, how did we sell them, so people on the list could order one without opening the sale up to non-list people.  In other words, even a list is a lot of work, and I was the only one running the company - and just maintining the list was taking away from my ability to deliver.  So I am thankful that Rick was crazy enough to volunteer to run the thing.

Based on the excellent support I have gotten from DT, I suspect this development will be more smooth.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: TNC on December 15, 2017, 10:56:30 AM
I'm surprised some here don't know ShootingSight...Art.  He's been in the business for awhile and has a great track record of quality and integrity in the gun industry.  I don't know exactly how his effort with the MDR will shake out, but his improvement of the original Tavor trigger is outstanding.  He definitely has some knowledge when it comes to working on bullpup triggers.  I can say without a doubt that if he feels he can't make a notable improvement on the MDR trigger, he won't market a subpar product.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on December 15, 2017, 08:19:05 PM
I can say without a doubt that if he feels he can't make a notable improvement on the MDR trigger, he won't market a subpar product.


That's not a tall order, trust me.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on January 04, 2018, 12:10:09 PM
A quick update .... first trigger housings went into the CNC yesterday to get internal cuts made.  I'm back into programming mode over my morning coffee to get the side cuts made today.

I told DT that I was counting on having a prototype to demo by SHOT show, which is less than 3 weeks away.  Unfortunately, the implication I made was that it would be a prototype that works :-).  I've got a design in CAD, it is based on other trigger design principles that have worked, I have parts in the pipe, so it *should* all come together.  The fun part is always when the last of the parts get back from outside vendors with less than a week left to go, and you assemble them for the first time.  That's when you see the little bumps/errors/interferences, and hope that you can make modifications with a Dremel, because you don't have the luxury of time to tweek the CAD files and do a Gen II.

The only thing I know would delay this project is if it turns out I won the lottery last night, but I should be able to resolve that issue in a few minutes once I get to the shop and look up my ticket numbers ....


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: HBeretta on January 04, 2018, 01:00:36 PM
The only thing I know would delay this project is if it turns out I won the lottery last night, but I should be able to resolve that issue in a few minutes once I get to the shop and look up my ticket numbers ....

yeah that would certainly delay things.   ;D


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Sdevante on January 04, 2018, 03:36:36 PM

I told DT that I was counting on having a prototype to demo by SHOT show, which is less than 3 weeks away.  Unfortunately, the implication I made was that it would be a prototype that works :-).

If it doesn't work out in time, just tell DT "two MOAR weeks." I'm confident they'll understand.  ;D


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: kfeltenberger on January 04, 2018, 05:22:04 PM
The only thing I know would delay this project is if it turns out I won the lottery last night, but I should be able to resolve that issue in a few minutes once I get to the shop and look up my ticket numbers ....

yeah that would certainly delay things.   ;D

I didn't win, you didn't win, no one won...  :-(

Now it's on to Friday and Saturday for the drawings!


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on January 05, 2018, 11:01:53 AM
I guess the fact that no one else won is still good news for me ....

I love lottery pots this big.  I go to the movies, I spend $10 on a ticket, I'm entertained for 2 hours before going back to reality.  With lottery, I can drop $10 on tickets and get to dream about 'what if ...' for 3 or 4 days.

Yesterday, we made a housing in delrin that fits in the lower nicely.  I've got blocks of aluminum squared up and ready to go, but want to get guts into the housing first, so I do not commit to pin hole locations that I later regret.  Hammer is done.  I have the difficult parts of the trigger done, but need to make the framework with the little 'finger' on it that will engage the actuation rod.  As stated, I have already designed it in CAD, so that is pretty certain to work.

About the only thing I know I will fall short on is springs.  I took a SWAG on the closest stock springs I could, but it will take the final product with the final geometry and NiB coating to get frictional coefficients right, so I can measure what I have, and then re-calculate how much more/less, but that can be done relatively easy.

I will add that the more I work on this rifle, the more impressed I am with the quality.  I see a lot of detail done 'right'.  To wit, the buttpad.  Lots of rifles just use an injection molded plastic piece.  This buttpad has a metal core with rubber molded into it, and two bolts that hold it on.  It took more engineering to design this, and it cost more than a plastic piece - but it works better.  You get what you pay for.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: whiskey91lima on January 05, 2018, 06:39:38 PM
Yesterday, we made a housing in delrin that fits in the lower nicely.  I've got blocks of aluminum squared up and ready to go, but want to get guts into the housing first, so I do not commit to pin hole locations that I later regret.  Hammer is done.  I have the difficult parts of the trigger done, but need to make the framework with the little 'finger' on it that will engage the actuation rod.  As stated, I have already designed it in CAD, so that is pretty certain to work.

About the only thing I know I will fall short on is springs.  I took a SWAG on the closest stock springs I could, but it will take the final product with the final geometry and NiB coating to get frictional coefficients right, so I can measure what I have, and then re-calculate how much more/less, but that can be done relatively easy.

It seems like your drop in trigger will hit the market quicker than the MDR itself. Jokes aside about two more weeks, I'm genuinely curious about your trigger.

1) What type of trigger is it designed to be? One stage, two stage?
2) What is your target trigger weight? Reset length?
3) Is it user configurable? I realize this is incredibly rare, but I am curious.

I will add that the more I work on this rifle, the more impressed I am with the quality.  I see a lot of detail done 'right'.  To wit, the buttpad.  Lots of rifles just use an injection molded plastic piece.  This buttpad has a metal core with rubber molded into it, and two bolts that hold it on.  It took more engineering to design this, and it cost more than a plastic piece - but it works better.  You get what you pay for.

I hope so. Given the quality of other DT products, this is what has kept me from cancelling my preorder.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: INV136 on January 06, 2018, 01:41:28 PM
I agree. This is the same reason that I have endured all the smack talk for the last two years. I have confidence that the MDR will be a quality product and the aforementioned seems to corroborate my expectations. Two more weeks? Hell, if it is as good as stated, I can wait two more months.  :)


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on January 07, 2018, 12:14:29 PM
Trigger will be a 2-stage.
Trigger will have minimal second stage creep.
My goal is for a 4.5 - 5 # pull, I think that is a good compromise weight for a Service Rifle.  Factors in the rifle itself might impact this, so I'll only know the final answer in after the springs are done.

I made a 2-stage trigger for the Tavor which has a good reputation.  I am re-applying many of the same design principles, in terms of sear loading, hammer weight, disconnector design, and of course, all my primary components are CNC machined from Rolled Plate Steel, versus using cast parts, all the components will be hand lapped, and the sear surfaces will be NiB coated.  So I have every expectation that the performance will be similar to that of the Tav-D.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: JesseJames38 on January 07, 2018, 01:25:18 PM
Trigger will be a 2-stage.
Trigger will have minimal second stage creep.
My goal is for a 4.5 - 5 # pull, I think that is a good compromise weight for a Service Rifle.  Factors in the rifle itself might impact this, so I'll only know the final answer in after the springs are done.

I made a 2-stage trigger for the Tavor which has a good reputation.  I am re-applying many of the same design principles, in terms of sear loading, hammer weight, disconnector design, and of course, all my primary components are CNC machined from Rolled Plate Steel, versus using cast parts, all the components will be hand lapped, and the sear surfaces will be NiB coated.  So I have every expectation that the performance will be similar to that of the Tav-D.

Don't mind me asking.  why are you wanting to make the trigger pull weight the same as the stock MDR?  What benefits would there be between your trigger and the MDR trigger if they are both the same pull?   I always figured the reason to go after a after market trigger is to get a lighter trigger pull,    which is more crisp and less take up..     I am all for a better trigger.. just don't see my self getting a slightly better trigger with the same pull weight as the stock one.  Or maybe the questions I should ask. of the stock desert tech trigger you received,  what is the pull weight on that particular one?

And this comes from the Desert Tech manual "Crisp 4.6lb trigger."     Of course many here state its not so crisp and not so 4.6lbs.

This is more of a question of curiosity then it is anything else.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on January 10, 2018, 12:11:18 AM
4.5-5lbs is really about perfect for this type of rifle. It won't take much to be an improvement over the factory trigger. 4.5-5 lbs but with a gritty 1/4" long pull that gives no feel for when it's going to break isn't a high bar. Without a change in the trigger bar I wouldn't want a much lighter trigger in an mdr.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on January 10, 2018, 11:24:57 AM
4.5 is the benchmark I usually operate against.  That is what the NRA considers to be safe minimum weight for a Service Rifle.  If this were a target rifle, that was only going to be shot off a rest, going lighter would be a motivator, but for a rifle that will be carried while loaded, that might be dropped while loaded, or might be used as a  combat weapon, 4.5 is the minimum in my mind.  The Garand was closer to 6.5-7, and that had what I consider to be the finest combat trigger I have ever seen.  The M16 / AR-15 is often in the 9-11lb range (and has a miserable trigger).

As to a benefit, I consider a 2-stage to be the standard.  Not everyone agrees with me, but 2-stage is what I make.  This allows you to have a generous sear engagement, you pull through 90% of it at a low weight, then you hit a solid bump, to let you know it is about to go off, then comes the magic as you only need to apply an extra 2lb or so, and the final 10% of travel is so low, your finger cannot feel the trigger move.  So you end up getting a glass like break when you only applied 2lb extra.

I guess in my mind, the 1st stage pressure sort of goes away in your brain once you focus on the target, so that 2nd stage feels like a 2lb crisp trigger.

I have not measured the DT trigger that I have.  I don't think it is evil.  It is a LOT better than an AR-15 mil-spec trigger.  I do not know how much better my trigger will be.  I know that using superior grades of steel (ie rolled plate tool steel versus cast or MIM), by hand polishing, by adding NiB, by redesigning the sear geometry to reduce pressure ... and a few other things, each of these steps is slightly better than its counterpart.  So in aggregate, the final trigger should be better.  How much better will only be apparent after I make the first ones and we try them out.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: JesseJames38 on January 10, 2018, 07:50:12 PM
Thank you for the information and insight  shootingsight.    I dont know much about triggers.  Everything that i have is stock except for two AR's.  That has rock river 2 stage triggers.     I do appreate the insight.

Jesse


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on January 16, 2018, 02:06:42 PM
Late night last night, I was at the shop till 3:30am making parts to be able to ship them to the anodizer this morning, to get them done in time for SHOT.

There are still things that can bite me in the rear in terms of getting the final trigger working, but I have at least 1 prototype which is sweet (albeit slightly light on the second stage).  I did NOT send that to the anodizer, in case they drop the ball and somehow lose my order.  So I can pretty much guarantee there will be at least one in my booth (841) at SHOT.

My plan is to bring several, so I can have it in my booth, and DT have indicated they would like to show it in their booth as well.  Though presumably, their ability to show it is dependent on me a) getting multiples put together, and b) them being impressed enough with the result that it looks like a step up.

This one is adjustable, so I can tune the second stage creep, that will likely go away in the future.  The benefit of a trigger pack is that I can control and QC the pin hole locations, so I can verify the setup without needing adjustment.  We'll see.

Bottom line is that the development is progressing well.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Steelviper on January 17, 2018, 12:04:25 AM
Now if there were just enough of the MDRs in the wild... oh and if Priof would make a barrel for them that would be great.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on January 28, 2018, 12:12:48 AM
So SHOT went well, or at least as well as could be expected for a crash timing program.  I had 4 prototypes that operated in the lower I had and felt really good, especially considering I only had hand bent springs in them.

There was a slight hiccup when we first put it in a rifle, as the bolt carrier would not clear over the top of the hammer when it was fully cocked.  Still not sure how I screwed that one up, though I only had 2D component drawings to work from, not a 3D assembly, so positioning components relative to one another took lots of hand 'ciphering, and I likely transposed a few numbers.  Anyhow, some precision work with a Dremel took a small peak off the leading edge of the hammer and it could at least be dry fired in the rifle that was in the show booth.  It was cool, they put it on the customized rifle with the suppressor and the 6.5 barrel and the cool paint job.  It was just too bad that range day was day#1, so I missed getting to fire it.

It'll be a few months for me to iterate this design to make all the changes, and test fire it, and then ramp up production (aluminum extrusion and custom springs take a few weeks).  But I don't see any barriers to making this a go, and hopefully DT will be just getting over their order backlog as I am ready to roll it out.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Radius13 on January 28, 2018, 01:27:53 AM
At ShootingSight:
I am declaring myself the first person on your "I want one" list.

Please let me know when sales go live.
If you have an estimated cost beforehand, that would help too.

Thank you.

That is all.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Steelviper on January 28, 2018, 01:41:16 PM
Numero DEUCE!!! Please! Great job


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: readr1 on January 29, 2018, 07:29:43 PM
Ha! I beat you both to that punch!  I tried to send him my extra MDR but he turned me down on that, but I think thats what got the creative juices rolling.  Here's to Art and his future success with MDR triggers, may he always have just one more to build.

Numero DEUCE!!! Please! Great job
At ShootingSight:
I am declaring myself the first person on your "I want one" list.

Please let me know when sales go live.
If you have an estimated cost beforehand, that would help too.

Thank you.

That is all.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on February 02, 2018, 11:54:24 AM
So readr did scoop you, and he was the one who planted the seed.

DT is working on getting me a full gun, as all I have is a lower at this point.  I'll use the gun both to determine fit (the sample I brought to SHOT had an oversized edge that jammed under the bolt carrier, and required an emergency trip to a Las Vegas Walmart, to buy a Dremel).  Additionally I'll do drop testing, which always breaks my heart as I drop a gun onto concrete from 5 feet up.  Multiple times.  I told DT that end Feb was fine, as I am up to my ears in other stuff that needs doing following SHOT.  These are the times I wish I had a huge support staff of designers and tool and die makers, so I could run around and say 'do this' and 'do that', and it would all magically get done ....

So here is the deal: I do not want to manage requests from multiple sources, or communicate via multiple channels, not to mention that I do not know who you are - I only see your forum name.  I want to manage this via e-mail.  So to 'get on the list', please send an email to shootingsight@fioptics.com, and put MDR Trigger in the subject line.

I have asked CS to create a folder in outlook for all MDR requests, so you will not get a response, but we will simply move all request emails into that folder, and the day we have something to sell, we will respond to all the emails, letting you know we are live.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Glorfindel on February 02, 2018, 12:11:22 PM
Awesome, thanks!


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on February 02, 2018, 03:18:15 PM
Followup request - please include your name and your forum name in the email, just to help me track who is who. Or whom is whom.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: rtp on February 02, 2018, 03:24:34 PM
Followup request - please include your name and your forum name in the email, just to help me track who is who. Or whom is whom.

 ;D

Ok - second mail sent, then. :)


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: bassybob on February 02, 2018, 05:32:53 PM
E-mail sent, thanks Art. BTW, the fiddy-get is a hoot!

-Bob


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Steelviper on February 02, 2018, 06:19:23 PM
Numero DEUCE!!! Please! Great job

Darn a couple people beat me. Hey some of us have to work.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Radius13 on February 03, 2018, 09:10:39 AM
@SteelViper: I know how you feel.
I just watch my place slip from 1st to 2nd to ?maybe 7th? now.
Nooooo!!!  ::)

Having said that, if I didn't work (keep working) I sure couldn't get the MDR or the trigger.
Anyway, really looking forward to this.  :D

That is all.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: JesseJames38 on February 03, 2018, 08:53:51 PM
Hey there ShootingSight.     If you don't mind me asking what standards do you use when drop testing the rifle.   Are they always dropped from the butt end only.  or do you alternate between butt, muzzle and sides  or odd angles?

The reason why I am asking this, is because there is a owner on the forums here that took some photos of the upper and lower removed and noticed that the trigger bar only contacts the aft side of the trigger release mech. and then pulls it forward to drop the hammer. And the bar has nothing on the fwd side to prevent the movement of the trigger release bar.   From his observation.  it looks possible that the firearm could be discharged providing that it its a solid surface with the muzzle end.  So I am wondering when testing your triggers if you will do these drop tests from the muzzle end of the rifle you receive.

Thanks
Jesse   


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on February 04, 2018, 11:03:53 AM
The SAAMI standard drop test is to drop the rifle from a height that has the center of gravity 48" high, onto a rubber surface of 85 to 95 durometer (about like a vinyl floor), six times, with the safety on, once each on the muzzle, butt, left, right, top, and bottom.  This test is repeated with the safety off, from a height of 12" from the lowest point of the rifle.  Finally, the rifle is stood on the butt, and allowed to fall to the left and to the right with the safety on.  This is all done with a primed case in the chamber, so it will make a loud 'bang' if it goes off.

I usually take it a step further, and do all my tests onto concrete, rather than the rubber.  I'll also repeat the last test with the safety off.  Sucks having to drop a new gun onto concrete from 4 feet up, but that is the test.  Dropping on the butt usually does no harm, cause the butt pad can take it, dropping on the muzzle will usually leave a ding in the tip of the flash hider.  I'll take the sights off, because impacting on them will break them.  I'll also remove the mag for the bottom drop (all tests are done with a full mag).  Interestingly, in the butt impact test, the inertia will usually cause the bolt carrier to retract far enough that it will eject the case.

Trigger components do not usually slide, rather they pivot, so the notion of moving forward or backward does not apply, rather they will rotate, and the direction of rotation will depend on where the center of gravity is in relation to the pivot point.  If CG is above the pivot, it will rotate in one direction when dropped on the muzzle, it the CG is below the pivot, it will rotate in the opposite direction with the same impact.  I did not analyze the original DT design, but in my design I have added counterweights to the main sear, so the CG is right at the pivot point, meaning there will be little rotation in the first place, regardless of the impact.

That said, I also noted that there is only one pin in the sear pack, so the sear is not restrained in one direction, and in my design I will be adding a second pin to fully trap the sear.

On a tangent note, this is probably why the SIG P320 had issues.  SAAMI (and SIG is a member) is an industry group that developed this testing standard, and the P320 passed all these tests.  It was only a drop in the back corner of the gun that presumably caused the striker to compress the firing spring, and at the same time caused something in the sear to move out of the way which caused the discharge.  This failure mode would not have shown up in the standard testing.



Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on February 04, 2018, 11:14:22 AM
By the way, DT had one of my triggers in the white 'customized' gun at SHOT Show.  Did anyone here get to try it?


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: JesseJames38 on February 04, 2018, 11:23:15 AM
Once again ShootingSight. thank you for the detailed insight.  You defiantly go into great detail and depth which is nice

Thanks again


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on February 04, 2018, 10:00:31 PM
Hey there ShootingSight.     If you don't mind me asking what standards do you use when drop testing the rifle.   Are they always dropped from the butt end only.  or do you alternate between butt, muzzle and sides  or odd angles?

The reason why I am asking this, is because there is a owner on the forums here that took some photos of the upper and lower removed and noticed that the trigger bar only contacts the aft side of the trigger release mech. and then pulls it forward to drop the hammer. And the bar has nothing on the fwd side to prevent the movement of the trigger release bar.   From his observation.  it looks possible that the firearm could be discharged providing that it its a solid surface with the muzzle end.  So I am wondering when testing your triggers if you will do these drop tests from the muzzle end of the rifle you receive.

Thanks
Jesse   

That was probably me. Seems like an oversight to me that DT didn't use a "u" notch or completely loop the trigger bar at the trigger pack connection especially considering the safety mechanism blocks the movement of the trigger bar but has nothing to do with the pack and it seems like a hard enough drop on the muzzle could possibly cause a ND. I emailed DT and supposedly they were going to forward the concern to the MDR engineer.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: JesseJames38 on February 04, 2018, 11:08:49 PM
Hey there ShootingSight.     If you don't mind me asking what standards do you use when drop testing the rifle.   Are they always dropped from the butt end only.  or do you alternate between butt, muzzle and sides  or odd angles?

The reason why I am asking this, is because there is a owner on the forums here that took some photos of the upper and lower removed and noticed that the trigger bar only contacts the aft side of the trigger release mech. and then pulls it forward to drop the hammer. And the bar has nothing on the fwd side to prevent the movement of the trigger release bar.   From his observation.  it looks possible that the firearm could be discharged providing that it its a solid surface with the muzzle end.  So I am wondering when testing your triggers if you will do these drop tests from the muzzle end of the rifle you receive.

Thanks
Jesse   

That was probably me. Seems like an oversight to me that DT didn't use a "u" notch or completely loop the trigger bar at the trigger pack connection especially considering the safety mechanism blocks the movement of the trigger bar but has nothing to do with the pack and it seems like a hard enough drop on the muzzle could possibly cause a ND. I emailed DT and supposedly they were going to forward the concern to the MDR engineer.

Yes I am pretty sure it was you who posted the photos and stated that.   always good to see some nice detailed photos of the internals of the rifle.

Jesse.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: spector762 on February 11, 2018, 10:23:56 PM
By the way, DT had one of my triggers in the white 'customized' gun at SHOT Show.  Did anyone here get to try it?
i know you probbly been asked this but i couldnt find it what will the cost be for this trigger


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on February 12, 2018, 07:58:29 AM
Unknown at this time, as I only have a prototype, and it has not even been live-fired.  I'll need to make the first batch and then total up the costs.

If I had to guess, I'm thinking close to $300.  That's based on my Tavor trigger pack being $340, but the hammer design involves lots of machining.  The MDR design is a lot simpler, so there will be some cost saving there.  Obviously, that's not a promise, as the design might change if drop testing does not go as planned, or if there are other issues in development, but it is a start.

Art


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: jreffner on April 30, 2018, 05:39:56 PM
Hello Art,

I was just wondering if there have been any developments on the MDR trigger pack since February.  This may be a dumb question but will your pack fit a 223 and a 308 MDR, or will the packs be different for each caliber?

Many thanks,

Jim


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: ShootingSight on May 02, 2018, 12:13:27 AM
Some progress since Feb, not much.  I lost a couple of employees unexpectedly, and was in over my head just keeping up with resupply of current inventory.

However the project is not dead - I have a stack of aluminum blocks cut and squared, ready to go in the mill.  I have updated CAD files that are just about ready to turn loose.  And of course this next week is NRA convention in Dallas .... I will get there, I'm just late.  THe prototype is very nice (it will be at Dallas), so it is just a matter of executing.

Dunno on the 223 and 308 question, I'll discuss with DT at the show.  If the FCG are the same, one pack should fit both rifles.

Art


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: coldboremiracle on May 02, 2018, 08:33:52 AM
Dunno on the 223 and 308 question... one pack should fit both rifles.

That is correct, there is no difference in the sear pack for 223/308.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: jreffner on May 02, 2018, 09:41:28 PM
Art & ColdBore,

Thank you both for the information, and thanks to ColdBore for all of the MDR videos too!

I am eagerly awaiting the opportunity to buy the trigger pack, and to get my MDR.

Jim


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: BrianK on May 06, 2018, 10:36:04 AM
I'm interested if it's better than OEM.

Put me the list if you have one.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: TNC on May 06, 2018, 05:11:50 PM
I saw Art at the NRA convention in Texas yesterday.  He was boothed directly next to Gearhead, and there were a lot of people packed around both.  I hollered "thanks for your Tavor trigger" through the crowd.  Saw him look up, but I wasn't sure if he thought I called him a name or gave him a compliment...LOL!


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Aussie E on May 06, 2018, 09:42:00 PM
I'm interested if it's better than OEM.

Put me the list if you have one.

From my previous experience with his Tavor and Sig triggers it will be better than the OEM (and I had a MDR so I know what the OEM trigger feels like).

AE


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: BrianK on May 10, 2018, 12:26:31 AM
I'm interested if it's better than OEM.

Put me the list if you have one.

From my previous experience with his Tavor and Sig triggers it will be better than the OEM (and I had a MDR so I know what the OEM trigger feels like).

AE

Thanx.

Looking forward to it then. I might have everything to mod it long before I actually have the rifle. Most is already either paid for or is already on hand and waiting.

FWIW, I have almost never liked a standard trigger on a GI type rifle. While I would never take it into a rough environment I find the RDB to have a pretty decent trigger. I was hoping for the same or better in the MDR from the original claims quite some time ago, but from what I read that isn't so. Bummer.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on January 05, 2019, 11:05:39 AM
Some progress since Feb, not much.  I lost a couple of employees unexpectedly, and was in over my head just keeping up with resupply of current inventory.

However the project is not dead - I have a stack of aluminum blocks cut and squared, ready to go in the mill.  I have updated CAD files that are just about ready to turn loose.  And of course this next week is NRA convention in Dallas .... I will get there, I'm just late.  THe prototype is very nice (it will be at Dallas), so it is just a matter of executing.

Dunno on the 223 and 308 question, I'll discuss with DT at the show.  If the FCG are the same, one pack should fit both rifles.

Art

Any more progress on it?


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Tayler89 on February 02, 2019, 08:52:38 PM
Can we get an update on the trigger?


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Aussie E on February 02, 2019, 10:47:05 PM
I had a quick conversation with Art at SHOT and from the sounds of it he has a couple of other projects (triggers) in front of it that he is trying to complete. With the high demand of the MDR he still doesn't have a functioning MDR from DT to live fire test his prototype on. Be patient guys I'm sure when it is done it will be fantastic like his other triggers.

AE


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: newguy2k3 on February 02, 2019, 11:21:56 PM
I had a quick conversation with Art at SHOT and from the sounds of it he has a couple of other projects (triggers) in front of it that he is trying to complete. With the high demand of the MDR he still doesn't have a functioning MDR from DT to live fire test his prototype on. Be patient guys I'm sure when it is done it will be fantastic like his other triggers.

AE

Getting a mdr to test with is one thing. Getting one that's completely functional might be tough.


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: thehun on February 03, 2019, 10:03:19 AM
Art would properly test the MDR with its trigger for safety, function and reliability more than DT ever did...


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: spector762 on April 01, 2019, 10:31:18 PM
any update ? i got to the range with my6.5 grendel with a geissle ssa-e and realised just how bad the mdr needs  improvement in that dep   


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: jreffner on April 04, 2019, 06:14:50 PM
Here is an email I got from customer Service on March 21, 2019:

Thank you for your interest. These are currently still in prototype development, so I do not yet have a time frame of when they will be available for purchase. We have recently hired another person, so we hope this will progress quickly.

I have placed you on a list of people who are interested in this trigger, and we will email you when there are updates to this project.

Thank you,



Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: Farmerbrown32 on October 06, 2019, 05:41:26 PM
Any update on this trigger?


Title: Re: MDR Trigger Development
Post by: jreffner on October 09, 2019, 08:02:01 PM
Art told me on the phone that it won't be ready until early 2020.